Marauders got 89% damage reduction against Death field!

[JayPres]

I know what other Sages have. I know what I have.

 

I also know what Mara/Sents have. Too much damage mitigation for a top DPS dealing AC.

 

I watched one last night ( I was guarding a door and watched as they fought in the distance), take on 4 people at the same time. He popped all his defensive cooldowns when he got low, took out 2 of the 4 players, and then died.

 

If I get 4 people on me, I'm dead within 2 seconds.

 

My point stands ... too much mitigation for such high dps output.

 

"Bulls are strong enough to trample without the use of horns; god please nerf bulls." - El Matador

[Pedra]

There is no way in hell that will ever happen.

 

And if it did, The Tide will avenge you guys. Next time, we'll not let LSU cross the 50 even once.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Pedra

[ProfessorWalsh]

My point stands ... too much mitigation for such high dps output.

 

No. It isn't. Your point is wrong, and I can't believe anything that you say in t his thread as it is obvious that you came into this with an agenda.

[SinnedWill]

Very much true and yes try to kite/evade the battle until the other char is vulnerable. The only difference is that a marauder/sentinel in a battle with a sage/sorc can attack when he pleases. Sages/Sorcs do not have any cc immunity other than the resolve bar (unlike mars) .

Wrong - mara/sent has 0 cc immunity. Also, mara/sent can't do anything to anyone beyond 10m (15m with pvp gear set bonus for vicious throw - but target must be below 30% hp) while rooted. ALSO, mara can't do any significant damage without rage. Effective kiting not only burns their offensive windows and defensive cooldowns, it also prevents them from building rage.

So here is the question, find me a counteract to a the following rotation of a sentinel/mar against a sage with force armor up.

 

force leap (sage pinned and cannot move for a couple of secs) -> attack in any way you like, force armor goes down probably in the first strike -> sage can do force wave and pin and slow the mar, but mar throws lightsaber -> finally little damage with hopefully force potency/force in balance/tk throw as mar activates all his damage reduction -> mar starts approaching (by now my hp is more likely down to half at around 8-9K, ie 2 strikes and im dead, and marauders possibly has lost in the best case scenario 1/4, ie he is up to 12K or smth) ->start kiting which means no more tk throw, hopefully one instant mind crush and then to the pathetic weaken minds -> force leap from reduce min distance and more damage which if critically hit sage is dead -> sage uses stun, marauder accepts that and saves his cc break for possible force lift (by now im down to about 2-3K) mar up about 11K more or less.

Gunna' stop you right here - I think you're under the impression that force charge does 5k damage/deadly throw does 4k damage/rupture does 3k damage, assault does 4k damage, battering assault does 2k damage... (in actuality, charge CRITS for ~1.2k to sorc/sage, deadly saber CRITS for ~1200 to a sorc/sage, rupture CRITS for ~1800 damage -if annihilation and talented for damage bonus, in which case it will also slow- and applies a weak-ish DoT, Assault CRITS for ~ 1k damage, battering assault CRITS for ~ 600 damage) and you also seem to believe that charge doesn't cause a GCD - marauder must wait 1.5s AFTER the charge animation before he can attack again unless he uses on off-global ability such as gore -carnage spec- or deadly saber-annihilation spec-; deadly saber does 0 damage, it's an offensive window buff; gore is also an offensive window buff, but it does ~400 crit damage) - charge's root effect lasts 2s (3s if talented, but it's very uncommon for marauders to take this talent). Basically, the marauder will get 1 hit on you (unless you used knockback right away, which you should do if you see them use an offensive window - if they haven't popped an offensive window, their damage will be awful, you WILL NOT lose bubble even from charge + battering assault + assault), so your bubble is still barely up before you can move again. Stop exaggerating.

outcome: sage dead, mar 40-50% of health bar still. the difference before as i said was that with at least a triage adrenal i could sustain the damage taken when pinned from a mar for 15 secs and wouldnt die in 3 strikes as it has happened from an 80% health bar.

 

conclusion:

difficult times for balance sages, i agree.

Man, my madness sorc. comes away from a 1v1 with any marauder/sent (even if he uses medpack + adrenal + ALL defensive cooldowns -albeit, I'll typically stun them ~30% HP and burst them down before they can pop undying rage-) with 60%-80% HP and the marauder on the ground, screaming in ops chat that his node has incoming... while I'm already capping it - sure, it might cost me a stun-break, but I don't think I've had to pop adrenal or medpack in a 1v1 against maras/sents since I learned how/when to counter each spec - they're all different, and they all require different timing/tactics to counter.

 

I think you'd have a difficult time as any class - particularly since you just completely exaggerate their damage. Seriously, you're at half health after they charge to you, get one melee ranged hit in, and use their saber throw? Wow, you're either naked (sure, then I can see their damage being higher) and unbubbled (pretty sure I've never left myself unbubbled to get taken advantage of since I actually learned the static barrier ability, don't see any other sorc/sages doing it either, maybe you're trying to set a trend?) or... you're blatantly exaggerating (which is obvious).

Edited July 6, 2012 by SinnedWill

[SinnedWill]

And if it did, The Tide will avenge you guys. Next time, we'll not let LSU cross the 50 even once.

 

OOOO... them is fightin' words! =p

Sure, I love bama 2nd-most (then I'll simply root for any SEC team after those 2), but LSU vs. Bama = good times every time.

 

As for LSU beating Florida being "never gunna happen" - what? It always happens. Bama vs. LSU is always a good match. And then... Bama vs. Florida is pretty much the same thing as LSU vs. Florida... it's gunna' happen! =p

[SinnedWill]

Apparently you do not know what either of the classes have, if you think that they bring equal amounts of group utility to the board, and that a ranged DPS should be able to facetank 4 people.

 

But... but... my PT brings grapple + DoT's (that slow), taunts, uncounterable (well, nearly uncounterable, sure they can purge CGC, but i'll just reapply it the next GCD) burst damage (which is almost perfectly on par with that of a sent/mara) and face-tank those same 4 people and kill all of them without dying! Pfft...

 

Also, there is nothing more difficult to kill than a sniper + tankassin combo (tankassin guarding the sniper) - sure, you might be able to LoS that burst dps, but then you're not killing them - probably one of the best node-guarding combos in the game.

[Ahhmyface]

Trying isn't the problem. The defense/damage mitigation these two classes have, is.

 

Not that I think that marauders are balanced (they most certainly are OP), but you're still being particularly obtuse about this point.

 

If I, a deception assassin, a class nobody thinks is OP, used my force shroud while you used your death field, I would take ZERO damage. Not 500, 0.

 

So, maybe a bad time to use death field? There are bad times to do things. You chose a bad time. The rest of your complaints are really irrelevant to your original point.

[Varicite]

Not that I think that marauders are balanced (they most certainly are OP), but you're still being particularly obtuse about this point.

 

If I, a deception assassin, a class nobody thinks is OP, used my force shroud while you used your death field, I would take ZERO damage. Not 500, 0.

 

So, maybe a bad time to use death field? There are bad times to do things. You chose a bad time. The rest of your complaints are really irrelevant to your original point.

 

Obviously your defenses are OP and need to be looked at. Again.

 

People should never have to time their abilities strategically in combat. PvP combat is supposed to be a digital analog of Rock'em Sock'em Robots.

[Alkiii]

When I see one Marauder being attacked by 4 people, and then see 2 of the 4 die to this Marauder before he finally dies, I think there is a problem. He got the 3rd person to around 30% health for crying out loud. Are we, as players, ALL supposed to stop attacking these guys when their Defensive CD's go up?

 

Either way, I think the damage reduction Marauders have is a bit over the top. Why you would justify this as "working as intended," is an absolute farce to me. It's just too much.

 

Agree to disagree.

[Varicite]

When I see one Marauder being attacked by 4 people, and then see 2 of the 4 die to this Marauder before he finally dies, I think there is a problem. He got the 3rd person to around 30% health for crying out loud. Are we, as players, ALL supposed to stop attacking these guys when their Defensive CD's go up?

 

I think there is a problem too.

 

4 players were attacked by 1 Marauder, and not a single one managed to stun him for the duration of his cds.

 

In other words, those 4 players either immediately filled his Resolve by stupid means (mezzing while the Mara is currently being attacked) or they literally did not even try to CC him because they thought they'd get the easy kill.

 

Either way, all your story does is talk about 4 terrible players vs 1 Marauder who capitalized on their stupidity.

 

If I come across 4 people who don't CC me at all while I've got cds running, I guarantee I will be killing at least one of them every single time.

 

Next time, I hope it's you, since you are obviously just going to keep my Cloak of Pain running for the full duration while not doing anything worthwhile at all to stop my pain train from leaving the station. : )

[JayPres]

Are we, as players, ALL supposed to stop attacking these guys when their Defensive CD's go up?

 

YES. Let up on the dps for a moment to not waste valuable cooldowns and give yourself some distance.

[SinnedWill]

I know what other Sages have. I know what I have. .

I really don't think you do, or you wouldn't be in here complaining about it when every single sorc/sage I hold in high regards that I speak to all agree that maras/sents are a joke to them (keep in mind my madness sorc is my most-developed/time-invested toon).

I also know what Mara/Sents have. Too much damage mitigation for a top DPS dealing AC..

Then you must know that mara/sent offensive windows are the easiest to counter and that proper kiting/countering and/or stretching out fight-durations always result in their deaths.

I watched one last night ( I was guarding a door and watched as they fought in the distance), take on 4 people at the same time. He popped all his defensive cooldowns when he got low, took out 2 of the 4 players, and then died. .

2 things:

1.) Were they baddies and tanks in tank gear? Well, pretty sure we know this answer, since they obviously didn't counter any offensive windows the marauder has and they didn't stun-lock kill him to completely bypass his undying rage. They probably instantly resolve-capped him before he activated an offensive window (tell-tale sign of baddies right there) and didn't bother trying to spread out and kite him (which is how you gimp their offense AND defense).

 

2.) Why were you, as a dps sage, with 30m ranged attacks simply watching this when you could have at least thrown DoT's + force slow + FiB on the guy while still watching the door? I'm really starting to gather that you just don't know what you're doing at all when you say things like that.

 

If I get 4 people on me, I'm dead within 2 seconds. .

If you get 4 tanks on you, as a balance sage/madness sorc., they're actually lucky to be able to drop you below 80% health, even if you're face-tanking them. Sure, if you get 4 DPS players that know how to stun-lock and focus-fire correctly, you die quicker than most other classes since you're a sorc/sage - which is why you use LoS and ranged kiting more often/efficiently - sure you won't ALWAYS prevent it from happening, but EVERY CLASS will lose to a good group of stun-lock coordinated FF squads. EVERY CLASS.

 

My point stands ... too much mitigation for such high dps output.

Best burst-like short-term mitigation, yes. High dps output if enemies don't counter the offensive windows, yes. But who in their right mind would actually sit there and let a carnage/combat mara/sent use a gore/precision slash procced ravage/master strike run full cycle without using anything to prevent it?

 

Seriously, if you're having issues with maras/sents as sorc/sage, I really don't know what you're going to do when you actually fight a GOOD pyro PT/assault VG, assassin/shadow, sniper/gunslinger, concealment ops/scound - they will kill you much more quickly and/or efficiently and you won't have ANYTHING to significantly shut them down like you have for maras/sents.

 

Mind if I ask what level and/or how well geared you are (if you're 50)?

[Varicite]

YES. Let up on the dps for a moment to not waste valuable cooldowns and give yourself some distance.

 

That's the ebb and flow of combat. He just doesn't seem to get that there are times you need to back off.

 

/shrug

[Arkerus]

So yesterday i critted 570 with death field as a full madness sorc and i started to wonder how it was possible. The marauder didnt have guard or anything, so i did the maths.

Using sentinel terminology:

 

Defensive roll: 30% aoe damage reduction (talent, every mara takes it)

rebuke: 20% damage reduction

saber ward: 25% further damage reduction against tech/force damage

inqisitor buff: another 10%

and 4% comes from defensive forms. Focus specced marauders also get exxtra 4% from talents

 

So im aware of the fact that the scaling isnt this linear, yet the damage reductions do add together somehow, since instead 3500 i only critted 570!

 

It would be nice if this somehow would be resolved, since death field is our only serious damage cd ...

 

Defensive roll is not a pvp centric talent. Not everyone takes it as it burns up points that can be used elsewhere.

 

Rebuke is on a cool down.

 

Saber ward, again, cool down talent. It's has to be used intelligently.

 

You can't count a buff from another class as a natural ability for the marauder.

 

The rest is fluff.

 

 

So what were you saying again? If you run into someone who has every single defensive technique up and running, of course they will take little damage. That's the point.

 

Abilities have cool downs so they can't be used 100% of the time.

[SinnedWill]

That's the ebb and flow of combat. He just doesn't seem to get that there are times you need to back off.

 

/shrug

 

Probably also believes that the best thing to do after you plant the bomb on the door in room 1 is to kill the opposing team out-right. And that killing an enemy (when his team is on offense and the guy is in no position to even slow down the ball-carrier) in hutt-ball is better than CC or knocking him down into the pit. And... free-casting from your own goal-line is a good thing... coz it's not like a warrior/knight or tank-specced PT/VG would ever consider jumping to ya for an instant goal or anything. ...and standing there in novare coast while you watch a teammate cap the node (even if there aren't any enemies coming for you to intercept) is always helpful.

 

Ah... yep, these players are the reason that even a 4-man pre-made team can actually lose to pugs. They're the best players for the opposing team =p

 

-Sorry, those were cheap shots, but I'm being silly- Still telling ya' that LSU is gunna' whoop Florida, though... yet again.

[Xtrema]

the only real issue i see with mara/sents is when theyre in god mode (99% DR) they still receive FULL heals, that just seems very wrong.

 

that and maybe the fact that their CD refreshes are way too short, as a dps jugg every single one of my CDs takes longer to come back even though my best one is their worst. /quickrant

Edited July 6, 2012 by Xtrema

[Varicite]

the only real issue i see with mara/sents is when theyre in god mode (99% DR) they still receive FULL heals, that just seems very wrong.

 

that and maybe the fact that their CDs are way too short, as a dps jugg every single one of my CDs is longer even though my best one is their worst. /quickrant

 

I've said this too in the past. Especially given that most Vanish-type abilities which are used as "get out of jail free cards" come w/ a 100% healing debuff attached unless you spec out of it.

 

I was surprised there was nothing like that for Undying Rage or Force Camo (at least one of them, not both).

[SinnedWill]

One last piece of advice - cybertech grenades - namely, the rakata freeze bomb. BUY SOME. If you're having issues with countering marauder/sentinel offensive burst windows or defensive burst windows with your abilities, pick these up. The freeze bombs ignore resolve and will cause a 6s root - you don't need to be a cybertech to use them, though you need to be lv. 40 (it might be 30, I forget - I honestly don't use them on my madness sorc. since I really have no issues countering maras with my abilities). Hell, I find that even arsenal/gunnery mercs/commandos go to town on marauders if they use these - and, well, they're the easiest class/spec for any good marauder to decimate.

 

In rated warzones, every player on a good team will have some of these, some of the knockdown/stun (seismic)grenades and some of the slow grenades - though I do find that quite a few of the healers (and on the rare occasion where a team has a tank in tank gear) tend to use the damage or DoT grenades.

[Savej]

This has probably already been mentioned but there could have easily been a wz adrenal or trancendance or a sage/sorc bubble in the mix on top of the taunts, guard or any number of possibilities. Many classes with cooldowns active and friends helping nearby can take negligible damage from various attacks. This one example is meaningless.

[SinnedWill]

This has probably already been mentioned but there could have easily been a wz adrenal or trancendance or a sage/sorc bubble in the mix on top of the taunts, guard or any number of possibilities. Many classes with cooldowns active and friends helping nearby can take negligible damage from various attacks. This one example is meaningless.

 

Not to mention other existing damage debuffs that could be present on the the sorcerer that attacked such as tankassin's wither (5%), PT's combust (5%), or... worst of all, an Operative's sedative effect (50% damage debuff for 10s after sleep dart wears off - 3rd row from the bottom in the right collumn of the healing tree). The sedatives effect is CRAZY. I'm actually quite surprised that so few ops/scound healers have it - I've been hit by that on my carnage marauder, then I used a gore-procedd ravage (which ran full cyle!!) on a sage healer, and it didn't even break his bubble. I followed it with force scream (still had gore proc) and my scream did a wopping 86 damage (yes, he still had some of his bubble left). I also got hit with it another time and charged to a commando healer with "shields up" - gore-procced ravage was dealing 220's (first bit of damage), 300's (2nd bit of damage) and the 3rd bit of damage was a whopping 800's. Massacre damage values were ~160 (x2) + 80 (ataru form hit) in that same situation. I just can't figure it out - I know my gore-procced massacre damage values are ~900 (x2) + ~300 (ataru) when a commando has shields up and I don't have sedatives on me. The difference between the two values is far greater than 50% (same goes for taunts - my damage values are reduced by closer to 50%).

 

I think much of it is relative to how/when damage bonuses from expertise factor in, since taunt damage value reduction seems apply exactly 30% debuff in pvp when I'm on a toon that has 0 expertise (a lowbie alt, for example).

[Gidoru]

One last piece of advice - cybertech grenades - namely, the rakata freeze bomb. BUY SOME. If you're having issues with countering marauder/sentinel offensive burst windows or defensive burst windows with your abilities, pick these up. The freeze bombs ignore resolve and will cause a 6s root - you don't need to be a cybertech to use them, though you need to be lv. 40 (it might be 30, I forget - I honestly don't use them on my madness sorc. since I really have no issues countering maras with my abilities). Hell, I find that even arsenal/gunnery mercs/commandos go to town on marauders if they use these - and, well, they're the easiest class/spec for any good marauder to decimate.

 

In rated warzones, every player on a good team will have some of these, some of the knockdown/stun (seismic)grenades and some of the slow grenades - though I do find that quite a few of the healers (and on the rare occasion where a team has a tank in tank gear) tend to use the damage or DoT grenades.

 

uhh ya because forcing you to pick a particular crafting profession simply to have a chance agaisnt a certain class sounds like balance to me.

 

or they could just nerf Marauders ridiculous defensive CDs.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Gidoru

[criminalheretic]

Loving the rally cry of those defending this stuff, then justifying it with "play more defensively" and "you attacked the wrong person" responses. Unbelievable.

 

Very frustrating to be a Balance Sage these days.

 

I love the rallying cry of people saying that if someone has ALL of their defensive CDs popped, and is in the right spec, the fact that they can mitigate 89% of ONE ability is outrageous.

[SinnedWill]

uhh ya because forcing you to pick a particular crafting profession simply to have a chance agaisnt a certain class sounds like balance to me.

 

or they could just nerf Marauders ridiculous defensive CDs.

 

Derp, you don't need to be cybertech to USE cybertech grenades - only need to be cybertech to use the reusables.

Furthermore, they already forced everyone that pvp's to pick one specific crafting profession to simply stand a chance against ANYONE (or you have to pay crazy inflated prices for the consumed versions). It's called biochem, and although they finally made it less of a "MUST BE BIOCHEM OR FAIL" with 1.3, biochems have now jacked up their rediculously inflated stim prices even more.

Edited July 6, 2012 by SinnedWill

[SinnedWill]

I love the rallying cry of people saying that if someone has ALL of their defensive CDs popped, and is in the right spec, the fact that they can mitigate 89% of ONE ability is outrageous.

 

He's wrong, someone already did the math and it wasn't possible for his damage to be that low without external influences. It's also possible that he didn't crit at all with Death Field - hell, happens to me quite often, despite the fact that I have over 100% crit chance when I use recklessness - lol.

Edited July 6, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Gidoru]

Derp, you don't need to be cybertech to USE cybertech grenades - only need to be cybertech to use the reusables.

 

So again, you're going to pay hundreds of thousands of credits for a consummable item just to have a chance of beating a class? They arent cheap. Sounds like balance to me.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Gidoru