Marauders got 89% damage reduction against Death field!

[Paulman]

So your answer is to not attack this guy for a few seconds ... gotcha.

What exactly am I supposed to do while he's squatting on me and it's damn near impossible to get away? Stun him? He breaks it. Slow him? His slow is better than mine. Root him? He leaps to me when I get a little separation.

 

So the answer is to not attack him for a few seconds ...

 

Gotcha.

 

 

The point in all of this is this; Why does a "PURE" dps class get such good mitigation to go along with the best dps in the game?

 

It makes no damn sense.

 

See all you need not attack them just wait it out until they have one of thier other defense cooldowns up. And then... you wait that out. And then... And then...

[ZDProletariat]

More than likely he had a bubble on, which only shows the damage that goes through. Your damage popped his bubble, and 500+ damage hit him.

/thread

[SinnedWill]

Or, you can just effectively kite the marauder (any spec) as madness sorc. I don't have WW specced to insta-cast since it has done far more harm than good by instantly filling resolve for a 2s stun due to teammates using AoE's or blatantly attacking them. All I do is knockback Annihilation/Carnage marauders the moment I see their deadly saber buff (annihilation) or gore proc (carnage) - if it's a rage marauder with 4 stacks of shockwave ready, I'll kockback the moment they charge me. There, I just prevented their most significant burst-dps windows (momentarily, if they're annih/rage, though), now I use creeping terror, followed by affliction, followed by force slow, and begin to strafe-cast (must get beyond 10m range before my creeping terror's root effect ends, or he'll just obliterate back to me immediately, if he is rage specced and has 3 rage). OMG, the marauder popped cloak of pain + saber ward! Too bad he's not touching me right now. By the time their charge is ready again, so is my root, so I root him again (deprives him of being able to force charge until... oh wow, look, my overload cooldown is back, he charges me again, I knockback again - saber ward expires, he's ~50% health and still dropping despite the fact that I gave him full duration on cloak of pain). So... I get ballsy, I begin force lightning channels for my wrath proc (after making sure I have a fresh bubble) and let him wack me a bit. He breaks bubble, gets me to ~80% HP, well, he's ~ 30% - guess what time it is? "FINISH HIM!" I throw crushing darkness on him, then electrocute, then recklessness + death-field (should finish him off, if not, that last 2% HP of his is easily gone with a shock). Oh, wow! He didn't even get to use undying rage! Oh snap! A lot of good all those defensive cooldowns served him, eh?

 

Rage marauders - purge force crush every time + timely knockback + root + slow + strafe-cast kite.

Annihilation marauders - knockback + root + slow + strafe-cast kite (wait for them to pop deadly saber).

Carnage marauders - knockback (the moment you see a gore proc, which will usually go hand-in-hand with their rooting ravage) + root (gotta' save one for when they use deadly throw's root - so that you can trade roots and maintain kiting distance) + slow + strafe-cast kite.

 

No, marauder slows aren't more powerful than ours (unless it's a rage marauder's crush, which you can purge off - this deprives crush of its speed debuff, DoT damage, finishing damage, and also deprives them of the shockwave stacks it normally gives them), they're equal in value for speed modifier, but theirs will either last longer (or equally long if it's the slow attached to rupture) but they CAN use theirs more often - too bad kiting leaves them rage-starved and unable to use it as effectively as our combination of strafe-cast kiting + LoS.

Edited July 5, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Varicite]

In other words, if you're a Madness Sorcerer or Balance Sage, just steer clear for Marauders/Sentinels.

 

That's what I'm getting out of all this.

 

Sorry gang, but I still think that the defensive cooldowns for the tops DPS class in this game, are too powerful. Justify it as you wish, but it is what it is ...

 

In other words, you just don't want to try because it's easier to complain.

 

Gotcha.

[Alkiii]

He can't leap while rooted. Try stunning him, if he breaks it, mez him.

 

If I stun him, he takes damage. Therefore setting his defensive cooldown to 30 seconds.

If I knock him back after he leaps to me, it does damage and his defensive cooldown goes to 30 seconds.

If I mez him, I have to hope and pray no one else has put a DoT on him, otherwise his defensive cooldown goes to 30 seconds.

 

So while you guys give me all these nice and peachy scenarios, I'm left wondering what I'm supposed to be doing (other than trying to get away) while he is sticking his lightsabers up my balloon knot?

 

Did you guys happen to forget that these guys hit Sages/Sorcs REALLY hard? Did you guys happen to realize that by the time I'm done "waiting it out," I'm sitting at around 20% health? So maybe I should heal, right?

As if that was enough to keep them from killing me ... I'm just prolonging the inevitable.

 

The point of this is yet another "Nerf Sentinel!" thread and these are getting old. There is nothing wrong with the Sentinel.

 

The point of this is that the Mara/Sent does too much damage to have these kinds of defensive abilities (damage mitigation).

[Varicite]

See all you need not attack them just wait it out until they have one of thier other defense cooldowns up. And then... you wait that out. And then... And then...

 

This is exactly how I also felt before rolling a Marauder, because I didn't know what I was doing against them.

 

It's funny how a bit of class knowledge and experience can turn that sense of helplessness around.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Alkiii]

In other words, you just don't want to try because it's easier to complain.

 

Gotcha.

 

Trying isn't the problem. The defense/damage mitigation these two classes have, is.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Trying isn't the problem. The defense/damage mitigation these two classes have, is.

 

No it isn't. We have just outlined a pure guide on exactly how to do it.

 

The class is fine, this is a EOBCK situation.

 

*Error Originating Between Chair and Keyboard

[skotish]

Are you a sent proff ?

[SinnedWill]

If I stun him, he takes damage. Therefore setting his defensive cooldown to 30 seconds.

If I knock him back after he leaps to me, it does damage and his defensive cooldown goes to 30 seconds.

If I mez him, I have to hope and pray no one else has put a DoT on him, otherwise his defensive cooldown goes to 30 seconds.

[\QUOTE]

 

Every time they take damage while Cloak of Pain is active, it resets the duration (which is 6s) - it can be reset repeatedly to last for a total duration of 30s. Pretty much the only thing madness sorc. does that will force it to last a full 30s is to throw affliction or creeping terror on him. But as I stated 2 posts earlier, you don't need to worry about it - it's not enough to keep him alive when you strafe-cast kite, counter the offensive windows and finish them before they can even consider using undying rage.

 

I don't have insta-cast WW, which you might have - it doesn't do damage, and unless they have their stun-break (or someone silly on your team attacks them), then it's guaranteed to make CoP wear off - not that you should even need to. If they force camo to close the gap in that common list of my rotations to counter marauders, you pop force speed once they reappear on you (if overload hasn't come off cooldown).

[Alkiii]

This is exactly how I also felt before rolling a Marauder, because I didn't know what I was doing against them.

 

It's funny how a bit of class knowledge and experience can turn that sense of helplessness around.

 

The things I'm reading in this thread on what to do against Marauders/Sentinels are making me chuckle. What will you be telling me next, that I have to go get a 4 year degree from the University of Florida in PvP mechanics before I can successfully beat these guys?

 

Problem is in their damage mitigation as a pure DPS class. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Varicite]

No it isn't. We have just outlined a pure guide on exactly how to do it.

 

The class is fine, this is a EOBCK situation.

 

*Error Originating Between Chair and Keyboard

 

I really, really hate to agree w/ Walsh, but... it really is starting to sound like pure whiny ignorance.

 

If you follow at least some of the things that people have outlined in this thread, you shouldn't be taking a ton of damage (you'll still take damage, such is life), and you should have at least a 50/50 shot at taking the Mara down, provided equal gear / skill.

 

Obviously, real situations won't be as clockwork, but the same mechanics apply.

 

Sinned did a pretty decent write-up as well (more focused toward a full Madness Sorc), but I doubt you read any of it.

 

Are you implying that I am some sort of rocket physicist or something because I understand some very basic principles of MMO PvP combat? It's not my first rodeo. /shrug

Edited July 5, 2012 by Varicite

[SinnedWill]

Did you guys happen to forget that these guys hit Sages/Sorcs REALLY hard? Did you guys happen to realize that by the time I'm done "waiting it out," I'm sitting at around 20% health? So maybe I should heal, right?

As if that was enough to keep them from killing me ... I'm just prolonging the inevitable.

).

 

If they are consistantly hitting you (at all) as a madness sorc., you're doing something wrong - they should only be hitting you a couple times before you counter and strafe-cast or when you actually choose to LET THEM hit you (i.e. when they're about ready for you to use a finishing burst-cycle rotation, which requires that you go turret-mode and use force lightning to get the wrath proc). Don't forget that in all the time that you're kiting them while they have DoT's on them, you're getting reactive heals from the crits, so I'm usually back to full health before I throw a fresh bubble on myself and begin trying for a wrath proc - I honestly never bother to use my off-heals unless i'm below 30% health and I have them LoS'd (due to their finisher) - think I've only had to off-heal in this situation maybe twice.

[SinnedWill]

The things I'm reading in this thread on what to do against Marauders/Sentinels are making me chuckle. What will you be telling me next, that I have to go get a 4 year degree from the University of Florida in PvP mechanics before I can successfully beat these guys?

 

Problem is in their damage mitigation as a pure DPS class. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Read what I wrote or figure out how to counter them on your own, like I did. If that doesn't help you, then... well... yes, pursue the MMO pvp degree and become a gator football fan - too bad LSU will still whoop you! =p

[Helistin]

Problem is in their damage mitigation as a pure DPS class. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Exactly this. Even when the damage output is on par between classes the one who can outlive the other by 15 seconds will always win.

Not holding my breath for Bw to fix it though, i'm sure that's something their awesome metrics don't show them.

[Alkiii]

pursue the MMO pvp degree and become a gator football fan - too bad LSU will still whoop you! =p

 

There is no way in hell that will ever happen.

[Siorac]

These threads are tiresome because the 1) Sentinels/Marauders, 2) the über leet players swarm in and tell us that Sentinels/Marauders can be killed if you do an advanced tactical analysis and counter every move they do with precisely the right action, possibly anticipating what they're gonna do.

 

And yes, they can be. Of course. And bad ones can even be killed easily. The point still stands: one of the best pure damage dealers in the game - only Snipers/Gunslingers and Vanguards/Powertechs can compete with them - have the very best defensive cooldowns as well. Other DPS classes simply don't have the survivability of the Marauder/Sentinel.

[Paulman]

Honestly there are a combination of problems in your scenario. First sorcs are kinda of weak currently. Second you have tanks that have incredibly powerful defensive abilities like taunt, WHILE still having the same if not better damage than a pure dps class. And lastly you have resolve/cc break that diminishes the usefulness of your defensive abilities. There is no override or diminishing returns on the multitude of defensive cooldowns they can use.

 

In other games that had tanks with gaurd/taunt abilities there was a tradeoff in damage. This was added as a way for tanks to play as tanks. They also had detaunts which for some reason they left out of the game.

[Chabodeux]

Or, you can just effectively kite the marauder (any spec) as madness sorc. I don't have WW specced to insta-cast since it has done far more harm than good by instantly filling resolve for a 2s stun due to teammates using AoE's or blatantly attacking them. All I do is knockback Annihilation/Carnage marauders the moment I see their deadly saber buff (annihilation) or gore proc (carnage) - if it's a rage marauder with 4 stacks of shockwave ready, I'll kockback the moment they charge me. There, I just prevented their most significant burst-dps windows (momentarily, if they're annih/rage, though), now I use creeping terror, followed by affliction, followed by force slow, and begin to strafe-cast (must get beyond 10m range before my creeping terror's root effect ends, or he'll just obliterate back to me immediately, if he is rage specced and has 3 rage). OMG, the marauder popped cloak of pain + saber ward! Too bad he's not touching me right now. By the time their charge is ready again, so is my root, so I root him again (deprives him of being able to force charge until... oh wow, look, my overload cooldown is back, he charges me again, I knockback again - saber ward expires, he's ~50% health and still dropping despite the fact that I gave him full duration on cloak of pain). So... I get ballsy, I begin force lightning channels for my wrath proc (after making sure I have a fresh bubble) and let him wack me a bit. He breaks bubble, gets me to ~80% HP, well, he's ~ 30% - guess what time it is? "FINISH HIM!" I throw crushing darkness on him, then electrocute, then recklessness + death-field (should finish him off, if not, that last 2% HP of his is easily gone with a shock). Oh, wow! He didn't even get to use undying rage! Oh snap! A lot of good all those defensive cooldowns served him, eh?

 

Rage marauders - purge force crush every time + timely knockback + root + slow + strafe-cast kite.

Annihilation marauders - knockback + root + slow + strafe-cast kite (wait for them to pop deadly saber).

Carnage marauders - knockback (the moment you see a gore proc, which will usually go hand-in-hand with their rooting ravage) + root (gotta' save one for when they use deadly throw's root - so that you can trade roots and maintain kiting distance) + slow + strafe-cast kite.

 

No, marauder slows aren't more powerful than ours (unless it's a rage marauder's crush, which you can purge off - this deprives crush of its speed debuff, DoT damage, finishing damage, and also deprives them of the shockwave stacks it normally gives them), they're equal in value for speed modifier, but theirs will either last longer (or equally long if it's the slow attached to rupture) but they CAN use theirs more often - too bad kiting leaves them rage-starved and unable to use it as effectively as our combination of strafe-cast kiting + LoS.

 

And what do you do if he pops sprint? Also camoflauge means he is back on you (vanish). The problem is that we can get away, but our damage is too low. We wont be able to kill him in time, since every charge, vanish means serious damage taken on our side. And if he uses sprints its game over

[Chabodeux]

Not dotting the marauder to wait till rebuke ends is simply not an option. I need my 2 sec root (31 point madness talent) to get distance, and also have to slow him which deals damage...

 

YOu gotta live with those def cd's...too bad you just cant

[Siorac]

Honestly there are a combination of problems in your scenario. First sorcs are kinda of weak currently. Second you have tanks that have incredibly powerful defensive abilities like taunt, WHILE still having the same if not better damage than a pure dps class. And lastly you have resolve/cc break that diminishes the usefulness of your defensive abilities. There is no override or diminishing returns on the multitude of defensive cooldowns they can use.

 

In other games that had tanks with gaurd/taunt abilities there was a tradeoff in damage. This was added as a way for tanks to play as tanks. They also had detaunts which for some reason they left out of the game.

 

Real tanks have laughably low damage in this game, too. Hybrid Shadow/Assassin tanks in DPS gear were/are freaks and their rebalancing has been attempted in 1.3 although their damage output is still far too high compared to Juggernaut/Guardian and Powertech/Vanguard tanks (and for them it's not really viable to play in DPS gear the same way it is for Shadows/Assassins).

[Varicite]

Not dotting the marauder to wait till rebuke ends is simply not an option. I need my 2 sec root (31 point madness talent) to get distance, and also have to slow him which deals damage...

 

YOu gotta live with those def cd's...too bad you just cant

 

You seem to be under the impression that if you do any damage to the Sentinel AT ALL, his Rebuke will last 30 seconds. That is not the case.

 

If you hit him w/ your Slow (which deals damage upfront), then you just need to wait out 6 seconds from the time you damaged him. Not 30.

 

The problem arises when you KEEP doing damage to him and KEEP resetting Rebuke until it lasts the full duration of 30 seconds.

 

PS) You have a knockback, snare, stun, and shield. You don't NEED the 2 second root to get distance. That's just your go-to.

[Paulman]

Real tanks have laughably low damage in this game, too. Hybrid Shadow/Assassin tanks in DPS gear were/are freaks and their rebalancing has been attempted in 1.3 although their damage output is still far too high compared to Juggernaut/Guardian and Powertech/Vanguard tanks (and for them it's not really viable to play in DPS gear the same way it is for Shadows/Assassins).

 

Vangaurd/powertechs have taunts even spec as dps. And they have the best damage in the game. I am not sure on gaurdians/jugs. 50% damage reduction is nothing to sneeze at.

[Paulman]

You seem to be under the impression that if you do any damage to the Sentinel AT ALL, his Rebuke will last 30 seconds. That is not the case.

 

If you hit him w/ your Slow (which deals damage upfront), then you just need to wait out 6 seconds from the time you damaged him. Not 30.

 

The problem arises when you KEEP doing damage to him and KEEP resetting Rebuke until it lasts the full duration of 30 seconds.

 

PS) You have a knockback, snare, stun, and shield. You don't NEED the 2 second root to get distance. That's just your go-to.

 

One of my biggest peeves about the sage/sorc is that it is simply too easy for friendly players to screw up my gameplay.

[Siorac]

Vangaurd/powertechs have taunts even spec as dps. And they have the best damage in the game. I am not sure on gaurdians/jugs. 50% damage reduction is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Taunts don't reduce the damage you take - it reduces the damage other players take from the taunted target. And it's only 30%, Guard is 50%. Which, again, affects other players, not you.

 

I can spam Taunt as a Vigilance Guardian, yes; my damage output AND my survivability are significantly lower than that of a Marauder/Sentinel. I don't think the tradeoff's fair. Powertechs do insane damage in DPS spec but their survivability is even worse than mine. Marauders/Sentinels cannot taunt but they do insane damage, have very powerful defensive cooldowns, and people often forget about their healing debuff which is 20%, lasts 15 seconds and is on a 12 sec cooldown. It is arguably as useful as the single target taunt. Or even more so.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Siorac