Vorbar Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I have no idea if Immortal is a better tank spec now than it was before 1.3, all I know is I hate the lack of punch post-1.3 due to the nerfs to Backhand and Crushing Blow... so I specced out of Immortal and back into Vengeance. So - is it wrong to queue as a tank in the LFG tool if I am speced Vengeance? The problem is this: if I flag only as a DPS I don't have much luck getting into flashpoints. I don't have the real life time to sit around and wait. Tagged as a tank I was getting in right away. I suppose it boils down to how much worse is a Vengeance-Soresu tank than an Immortal one, which I don't really know the answer to. Do healers hate Vengeance specced tanks? Are they viable? Thanks, V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggsnotdruggs Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 If you queue as a tank and you get into a team as the tank role. I would be HEATED if i was expected to heal someone not specced for it. So really you end up not only wasting your own time, but 3 others as well. I'm not saying that to rip you for even asking, but that really is my response lol. happened last night, some guy was like wel i just really wanted to get in here... i was like okay great now go tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craxim Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I have no idea if Immortal is a better tank spec now than it was before 1.3, all I know is I hate the lack of punch post-1.3 due to the nerfs to Backhand and Crushing Blow... so I specced out of Immortal and back into Vengeance. So - is it wrong to queue as a tank in the LFG tool if I am speced Vengeance? The problem is this: if I flag only as a DPS I don't have much luck getting into flashpoints. I don't have the real life time to sit around and wait. Tagged as a tank I was getting in right away. I suppose it boils down to how much worse is a Vengeance-Soresu tank than an Immortal one, which I don't really know the answer to. Do healers hate Vengeance specced tanks? Are they viable? Thanks, V "Viable" is a word thrown around a lot. Could you do HM FP and maybe even certain difficulties of EV and KP in it? Yes. But is the the most preferable? No. You could get a bad healer, you could get a good DPS who will destroy your AoE threat capabilities, a lot of things could happen. Immortal is the best PvE tanking spec, it was in 1.2 and it is now. Pretty much the only reason to go Vengeance spec is for more DPS, but you're a tank, and like it or not, BioWare doesn't want you doing a lot of DPS apparently. All tanks got their DPS nerfed this patch. As long as you can hold aggro, be it anything from a regular FP to 16 man HM EC, as long as you hold aggro and have good survivability, the DPS should do the DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiLune Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) I will say, all the extra power I'm gaining from augments is helping offset the dmg decrease on backhand and crushing blow. On the other hand, the DPS players are also gaining a bunch of extra power/stats. So their DPS will increase while mine will probably stay about the same/slightly better. Edited June 27, 2012 by DiLune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craxim Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I will say, all the extra power I'm gaining from augments is helping offset the dmg decrease on backhand and crushing blow. On the other hand, the DPS players are also gaining a bunch of extra power/stats. So their DPS will increase while mine will probably stay about the same/slightly better. Which is how MMO's work....it's their job to DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epicfear Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 in reality, it is kind of a bad idea to even queue up as a damage if you are jugg. because vengeance is one of the weakest dps trees in the game, and everyone expects a jugg to tank. we have great survivability and threat generation, so why wouldn't you want to go tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorbar Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 in reality, it is kind of a bad idea to even queue up as a damage if you are jugg. because vengeance is one of the weakest dps trees in the game, and everyone expects a jugg to tank. we have great survivability and threat generation, so why wouldn't you want to go tank? What would you suggest a Vengeance Jugg queue up as then? Are there any metrics on the quality of tanking between Immortal and Vengeance running soresu? I have no doubt that Immortal is better, but how much better would seem to be the question... Again I just don't like the "feel" as much post 1.3 with immortal so I'm looking for other options... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiLune Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 How did the feel of immortal change post 1.3? I am able to pretty much do everything I did before 1.2. CB and Backhand do less damage, but the difference isn't very big (PvE.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorbar Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 How did the feel of immortal change post 1.3? I am able to pretty much do everything I did before 1.2. CB and Backhand do less damage, but the difference isn't very big (PvE.) Personally may tanking ability seems the same. It should be better, but I wasn't having threat issues in the types of groups I run with, so the threat increases were a wash for me. I'm sure the damage reduction via SSM is taking its toll, but basically I miss the relatively big hits from Crushing Blow and to a lesser extent backhand. That feeling of satisfaction in hitting something really hard once in a while as a tank. That lack of power now just really waters down the experience for me. I'd probably be happy if they lowered DPS even further if they left a single really big hit for me to use. Obviously your mileage may vary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croba Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 As far as my personal feel, I do mostly warzones and solo, Solo is a bit slower but I really am staying alive much longer 1vs.1 or more in the warzones. Im specced immortal with some vengence and some rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieM Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Personally may tanking ability seems the same. It should be better, but I wasn't having threat issues in the types of groups I run with, so the threat increases were a wash for me. I'm sure the damage reduction via SSM is taking its toll, but basically I miss the relatively big hits from Crushing Blow and to a lesser extent backhand. That feeling of satisfaction in hitting something really hard once in a while as a tank. That lack of power now just really waters down the experience for me. I'd probably be happy if they lowered DPS even further if they left a single really big hit for me to use. Obviously your mileage may vary... For Tier 1 Hm FPs running as a vengeance tank is probably ok but personally I think you are really pushing your luck if you try that stunt in LI HM or anything above story mode operations. If I was a healer in any one fo those I would be pissed if you were wearing dps gear, specced for dps and just thought that by switching forms that was ok. It wouldn't be. If you're a tank, be a tank. To be honest even if you had tank gear and were still Vengeance I would prob have issues, as you would lack a lot of mitigating abilities that would make my hypothetical healing job easier. As a poster above said - it all depends on the group set up and the FP. Edited June 27, 2012 by JamieM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis_Anubis Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Yes, it's wrong. Don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok_bloodcraft Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Yes it's wrong. You are behaving fraudulently and claiming you are something you are not.. If you did this and I came across you I would just add you to my ignore list and vote to kick you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorbar Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 Yes it's wrong. You are behaving fraudulently and claiming you are something you are not.. If you did this and I came across you I would just add you to my ignore list and vote to kick you. Its not fraudulent. That word doesn't mean what you think it means. It's not like you can't tank to some degree. My question is still whether there are any metrics showing how vengeance soresu stacks up to immortal in tanking. Interesting responses from everyone. My current plan is to roll in Vengeance and respec to immortal if I decide to list myself as a tank. -V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumuji Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 For lower levels it doesn't matter. You got waht you need to tank but you might take a little bitmore damage than Immortal spec. Mid to upper levels. No way unless your healer just rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socialist Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I hate when I am healing and some guys not specced for tanking comes by. I end up having to heal a glass damage magnet and the others that are caught in his lack of threat generation. Doable in HM FPs without tough bosses, though a pain in the ***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamgonnabeevil Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 in reality, it is kind of a bad idea to even queue up as a damage if you are jugg. because vengeance is one of the weakest dps trees in the game, and everyone expects a jugg to tank. we have great survivability and threat generation, so why wouldn't you want to go tank? WHAT THE!!! vengence jugs dps is not the worst, ok its less than a class that is pure damage as jugs lack any kind of dps cd's, but still could be viable for end game raiding if geared and played correctly and the survive ablility cd's a jug has would be very good for taking some pressure off healers in sticky situtation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRGhostRider Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) FWIW, I have tanked EC story mode, LI HM, Kaon HM with 8/31/2 spec, soresu form, shield offhand, with tank gear. Note that I have almost full black hole gear though (except belt and bracer). Currently in 8/31/2 spec I am sitting at: ~ 7800 armor 52% damage reduction (more than full immortal which is 48%) 26% defense (with fortitude stim) 40% shield chance 45% absorb 24.3k health (I still have to augment 4 pieces of gear) The one and only thing I really miss at times is invincible (as my second oh $**t cooldown). Not saying that you should tank EC HM with this, indeed I would respec up to tier 5 in immortal for EC HM. But just saying, everything else is completely viable in 8/31/2 if you have the gear, shield and soresu. Your skill is far more important than some healer ************ about your spec. You show those guys how to tank the first and last boss correctly in LI HM, and I guarantee you, no one is going to complain about your spec. Just be sure to run soresu though Edited June 28, 2012 by CBRGhostRider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwthomas Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I have no idea if Immortal is a better tank spec now than it was before 1.3, all I know is I hate the lack of punch post-1.3 due to the nerfs to Backhand and Crushing Blow... so I specced out of Immortal and back into Vengeance. So - is it wrong to queue as a tank in the LFG tool if I am speced Vengeance? The problem is this: if I flag only as a DPS I don't have much luck getting into flashpoints. I don't have the real life time to sit around and wait. Tagged as a tank I was getting in right away. I suppose it boils down to how much worse is a Vengeance-Soresu tank than an Immortal one, which I don't really know the answer to. Do healers hate Vengeance specced tanks? Are they viable? Thanks, V its fine at lower levels. you wont have immortal specific moves yet. but once you hit 30ish you best be immortal. or have a pocket healer who knows ur not a tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamrhyolite Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Have you tried tanking the content in your preferred specs with your guildies/friends yet? What are their comments on your performance? Does the healer have to heal you more or are you taking more spikey damage? Are you losing threat to your DPSers? I suppose that it is possible to make it work, but bearing in mind that people using the LFG group may not be very experienced players or undergeared. Are you able to tank effectively if your healer is undergeared? Ultimately, the LFG tool is not just for yourself only. Different specs and group setup are possible, but for a LFG tool, you never know who is going to join, so make sure you can do the job right if you queued as a tank if not tank-specced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieM Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) in reality, it is kind of a bad idea to even queue up as a damage if you are jugg. because vengeance is one of the weakest dps trees in the game, and everyone expects a jugg to tank. we have great survivability and threat generation, so why wouldn't you want to go tank? Utter garbage. DPS Juggs are totally viable for end game and can potentially push out numbers that would make marauders blush, if you know how to play the class and are geared correctly that is. Just because there are not many of us around to prop up the combat logs doesn't mean we are not worthy dps. Edited June 28, 2012 by JamieM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiLune Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Utter garbage. DPS Juggs are totally viable for end game and can potentially push out numbers that would make marauders blush, if you know how to play the class and are geared correctly that is. Just because there are not many of us around to prop up the combat logs doesn't mean we are not worthy dps. Ran with a DPS Jugg and he was definitely impressive. He's the one I shielded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofdamornin Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 As a healer, I can't stand paying for someone else's impatience. I don't queue up as heals for a Flashpoint unless I am also the healing spec, even though I am both good enough, and geared enough, to do so. It's selfish, and yes - fraudulent. If you are going to queue as a tank or healer, then be a tank or healer, in terms of both gear, and spec. It's good to hear, OP, that you seem to be making this same choice. It's just the right thing to do. Riôt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSassafrass Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 FWIW, I have tanked EC story mode, LI HM, Kaon HM with 8/31/2 spec, soresu form, shield offhand, with tank gear. Note that I have almost full black hole gear though (except belt and bracer). Currently in 8/31/2 spec I am sitting at: ~ 7800 armor 52% damage reduction (more than full immortal which is 48%) 26% defense (with fortitude stim) 40% shield chance 45% absorb 24.3k health (I still have to augment 4 pieces of gear) The one and only thing I really miss at times is invincible (as my second oh $**t cooldown). Not saying that you should tank EC HM with this, indeed I would respec up to tier 5 in immortal for EC HM. But just saying, everything else is completely viable in 8/31/2 if you have the gear, shield and soresu. Your skill is far more important than some healer ************ about your spec. You show those guys how to tank the first and last boss correctly in LI HM, and I guarantee you, no one is going to complain about your spec. Just be sure to run soresu though This guy knows what he is talking about. I have only tanked regular operations pre 1.2, but did so as full vengeance with very decent tanking gear. We get a flat 4% damage reduction with additional 15% during enraged defense, I know it isn't much but it does help reduce some of those damage spikes. My healers had no clue I wasn't immortal specced because I constantly mitigated damage using abilities, relics, and adrenals. Of course I wouldn't wan't to be the weak link in a role as vital as tank for a hardmode operation, so I would probably spec immortal. But saying past 30 you need to be specced immortal to queue as tank for group finder is ridiculous. I rerolled a new jugg on fatman and have had 0 issues tanking everything pre-50 in full dps gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok_bloodcraft Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Its not fraudulent. That word doesn't mean what you think it means. It's not like you can't tank to some degree. My question is still whether there are any metrics showing how vengeance soresu stacks up to immortal in tanking. Interesting responses from everyone. My current plan is to roll in Vengeance and respec to immortal if I decide to list myself as a tank. -V that word does mean what I think it does you are saying you are a tank and you are misrepresenting yourself. It is like selling a chevy nova and telling people it is a dodge viper. or an in game example would be a powertech queuing as a healer or you selling cybertech speeders then just giving someone the parts. Also gear isn't being mentioned in op post but from how you phrased it seems like you are wearing dps gear and acting like a dps and if you were specced as a tank wearing dps gear while tanking I would criticize that also. the wording pretty much says you were a dps queuing as a tank just to get into a group then dumping the fact that there are 3 dps on everyone, More-so you knew you were not a real tank that is why you asked to start with which means you that you know that you are doing something untoward fraud·u·lent/ˈfrôjələnt/ Adjective: 1. Obtained, done by, or involving deception, esp. criminal deception: "the fraudulent copying of American software". 2. Unjustifiably claiming or being credited with particular accomplishments or qualities. Synonyms: deceitful - dishonest - deceptive Edited June 30, 2012 by havok_bloodcraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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