The Old Republic at E3 2012!

[Shingara]

Proper diminishing returns would have made it pointless, with it kill trading in WAR only worked if you did 100% of the damage, were a lot lower in rank AND had a large pool of people to line up to die (which made it effectively pointless, over actually fighting, for everyone but gold farmers).

 

But again the utterly horrible design of the zone was also largely to blame, there wasn't enough reward for winning or losing or indeed a clear way to win or lose really.

 

I could have seen it from a dev team that had never been anywhere near an RvR game, but just playing an RvR game would have allowed most people to design a better systems, never mind that many of the people working on SWTOR had worked on WAR (and that Biware was running WAR).

 

Bioware run war but mythic created it, like i said there was little to no need to trade kills in war, most the time if you were doing it you would get your head kicked in by someone else walking passed making trading kills pointless exercise, the main objective in war were to attack the main citys by fort and land control on a direct path to citys. Added to that if you tried to gank in war pvp areas you got turned into a chicken and kicked up the butt.

 

The ranks here were to prestiges to ignore for any pvper worth there salt due to the box's and gear, and thats where like i said it fell down, there was no end objective, holding the zone itself had no objective really. you wernt hindered by not controlling it to a great degree, there was no objective beyond it and gear was tied to much rank for valor to be the only objective of it.

 

Bioware expected people to want to rvr simply because of the films, i doubt they ever expected this

 

 

So like i said, timed zone, when you win you get access to a 8/16 operation that drops pvp gear, vendors and dailys. illum fixed.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Shingara

[Goretzu]

Bioware run war but mythic created it, like i said there was little to no need to trade kills in war, most the time if you were doing it you would get your head kicked in by someone else walking passed making trading kills pointless exercise, the main objective in war were to attack the main citys by fort and land control on a direct path to citys. Added to that if you tried to gank in war pvp areas you got turned into a chicken and kicked up the butt.

 

The ranks here were to prestiges to ignore for any pvper worth there salt due to the box's and gear, and thats where like i said it fell down, there was no end objective, holding the zone itself had no objective really. you wernt hindered by not controlling it to a great degree, there was no objective beyond it and gear was tied to much rank for valor to be the only objective of it.

 

Bioware expected people to want to rvr simply because of the films, i doubt they ever expected this

 

Mythic devs worked on SWTOR, transfering over during the Mythic EA > Bioware-Mythic EA > Bioware EA phase.

 

Kill trading was largely pointless because of dimishing returns leading to 0 renown per kill, if you wanted to do it I suppose you could just find an out of the way non-RvR basin place and do it (which is what gold farmers did do), but it was largely pointless because you made MORE renown playing NOT by farming( unless you had a 24/7 botting system in place like gold/renown farmers did). Some did kill trade for drops (not renown), however a lot of people got banned for that, and in the end they largely changed the system to change that too.

 

There was no point ganking for renown (even without the chicken debuff) because again you got no realistic renown for it anyway.

 

If they'd had WARs system there'd have been much less reward for kill trading, and if they'd had an RvR structure that was fit for purpose, then there'd have been even less so.

 

Renown Rank was the most important thing in WAR btw, without it you couldn't wear a lot of gear (you could PvE for some equiverlent), and later on Renown Rank even gave you an effective "level", so there was all the reward in the world for getting higher Renown Rank, just not much reward for trying to do it by kill trading.

 

 

Which again is why I'm baffled as to why SWTORs PvP and RvR seemed to taken nothing at all from WAR (or indeed any prior MMORPG). WARs CC system worked much better than the overly complex and generally not fit for purpose resolve system in SWTOR.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Goretzu

[Shingara]

Mythic devs worked on SWTOR, transfering over during the Mythic EA > Bioware-Mythic EA > Bioware EA phase.

 

Kill trading was largely pointless because of dimishing returns leading to 0 renown per kill, if you wanted to do it I suppose you could just find an out of the way non-RvR basin place and do it (which is what gold farmers did do), but it was largely pointless because you made MORE renown playing NOT by farming( unless you had a 24/7 botting system in place like gold/renown farmers did). Some did kill trade for drops (not renown), however a lot of people got banned for that, and in the end they largely changed the system to change that too.

 

There was no point ganking for renown (even without the chicken debuff) because again you got no realistic renown for it anyway.

 

If they'd had WARs system there'd have been much less reward for kill trading, and if they'd had an RvR structure that was fit for purpose, then there'd have been even less so.

 

Renown Rank was the most important thing in WAR btw, without it you couldn't wear a lot of gear (you could PvE for some equiverlent), and later on Renown Rank even gave you an effective "level", so there was all the reward in the world for getting higher Renown Rank, just not much reward for trying to do it by kill trading.

 

 

Which again is why I'm baffled as to why SWTORs PvP and RvR seemed to taken nothing at all from WAR (or indeed any prior MMORPG). WARs CC system worked much better than the overly complex and generally not fit for purpose resolve system in SWTOR.

 

Gabe being here and all of mythic that created warhammer being here are totally different things, get over the warhammer link because as far as i know only gabe is from there, the warhammer system wouldnt work here, maps are setup wrong and to impliment that would require a whole reworking of maps and thats worse as both sides maps through leveling are not shared. Best game to take the ideas from is wow as wierd as it sounds.

 

Ganking has never been done for anything apart from harrasment, trading kills happened and there is no getting away with it, illum exploded faster then a rabit eating a hand grenade because there was nothing else todo but gain ranks. The den is still fine btw.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Shingara

[Goretzu]

Gabe being here and all of mythic that created warhammer being here are totally different things, get over the warhammer link because as far as i know only gabe is from there, the warhammer system wouldnt work here, maps are setup wrong and to impliment that would require a whole reworking of maps and thats worse as both sides maps through leveling are not shared. Best game to take the ideas from is wow as wierd as it sounds.

 

Ganking has never been done for anything apart from harrasment, trading kills happened and there is no getting away with it, illum imploded faster then a rabit eating a hand grenade because there was nothing else todo but gain ranks. The den is still fine btw.

 

 

I'm not saying they should have designed the whole of SWTOR like WAR.

 

I'm saying that I can't understand how (given they ran WAR, had devs that built WAR and surely at some time must have had some devs that had played WAR) that the could build an RvR basin that included not one thing learnt from WAR or deemed to be successful in WAR.

 

But yes, they seemed to ignore other games too, such as DAoC or WoW (even the orginal Alterac Valley is decades ahead of what went Live on Ilum ), even LOTRO has a better RvR basin than Ilum was, and again not by a small margin.

[Shingara]

I'm not saying they should have designed the whole of SWTOR like WAR.

 

I'm saying that I can't understand how (given they ran WAR, had devs that built WAR and surely at some time must have had some devs that had played WAR) that the could build an RvR basin that included not one thing learnt from WAR or deemed to be successful in WAR.

 

But yes, they seemed to ignore other games too, such as DAoC or WoW (even the orginal Alterac Valley is decades ahead of what went Live on Ilum ), even LOTRO has a better RvR basin than Ilum was, and again not by a small margin.

 

Here is the thing, illum is exactly the same as a war basin, exactly, the difference is it leads to nothing, there is no goal beyond it. Illum as a battleground is absolute win because you fight you gain control and win and then leave., without a goal or something beyond winning it.....................

Edited June 19, 2012 by Shingara

[Goretzu]

Here is the thing, illum is exactly the same as a war basin, exactly, the difference is it leads to nothing.

 

Most successful RvR basins have a variaty of terrain and a lattice of points to capture and/or hold leading to further major points and usually a final large capture.

 

Often this can lead to another zone (WAR or PS), but equally it can just lead to a reset or period of being locked before a reset.

 

But almost always there is a goal and a way to win, no matter how temporary.

 

 

If they ever bring ground based RvR back to SWTOR, hopefully it will be along those lines.

[Shingara]

Most successful RvR basins have a variaty of terrain and a lattice of points to capture and/or hold leading to further major points and usually a final large capture.

 

Often this can lead to another zone (WAR or PS), but equally it can just lead to a reset or period of being locked before a reset.

 

But almost always there is a goal and a way to win, no matter how temporary.

 

 

If they ever bring ground based RvR back to SWTOR, hopefully it will be along those lines.

 

Wars basins were hold and control with forts, those at lower levels which worked at lower levels and prob would in swtor for buffs on experience and powers. top level they were a hold and control until you goto a main city of the opposing faction.

 

Now as illum stood you had points to control and objectives to take down via the dailys, you could technically win the zone, but what then, you had no objective beyond it, you couldnt attack drumy kas or corry. there was no objective within it beyond holding it, like an operation. there was in realistic terms no real reason to want to control illum.

 

The best pvp and open world pvp only happens when your fighting for something of value, killing each other isnt enough unless your one of the truly hardcore.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Shingara

[Darvus]

I hate to be the voice of reason, but if the future is so bright and epic, considering the current state of the game, shouldn't all of these "closed-door presentations" been shared with the playerbase? It's not like this game doesn't need a major PR boost, and we need to see some actual hope. Saying that you told a bunch of people really cool stuff, but it must be kept a secret is pretty much useless.

[King_Cashio]

Man... All the negativity surrounding this player base is just so deflating sometimes.

 

I understand if you don't like the game, but why do you all feel the need to talk others into feeling the same way about it as yourself? It's almost like you yourself are trying to get others to follow along to justify your personal feelings about this game.

 

And if you quit months ago why do you still feel the need to post in the forums? Seems like a pretty silly way to spend your free time.

[Rouge]

There is no world PvP because the community does not seek it out. If you want to spark some world PvP, start camping in an enemy heroic area or make an ops group to go raid an enemy base.

 

But PvPers accept only themepark PvP nowadays... even in world PvP.

[Rouge]

Man... All the negativity surrounding this player base is just so deflating sometimes.

 

I understand if you don't like the game, but why do you all feel the need to talk others into feeling the same way about it as yourself? It's almost like you yourself are trying to get others to follow along to justify your personal feelings about this game.

 

And if you quit months ago why do you still feel the need to post in the forums? Seems like a pretty silly way to spend your free time.

 

Some of are just trolls, others are Guild Wars 2 etc fans trying to bring SWTOR down and so on.

[King_Cashio]

Some of are just trolls, others are Guild Wars 2 etc fans trying to bring SWTOR down and so on.

 

Are they being paid or something? If not what's the point?

[Shingara]

Some of are just trolls, others are Guild Wars 2 etc fans trying to bring SWTOR down and so on.

 

Now i can understand why they would fly there fanfairs and all but, WoW BiS on the black market auction house and rumors of Real money auction house going into it and then GW2 being able to buy game currency with real cash, future aint that bright.

[Rouge]

Are they being paid or something? If not what's the point?

 

Promoting their "own" game, making it a success. Getting rid of a competitor.

[Aambed-khar]

Great job Dr's and everyone else at BW... although... if you keep up this pace, I'm never going to get around to playing Mass Effect 3

[kurzis]

Man... All the negativity surrounding this player base is just so deflating sometimes.

 

I understand if you don't like the game, but why do you all feel the need to talk others into feeling the same way about it as yourself? It's almost like you yourself are trying to get others to follow along to justify your personal feelings about this game.

 

And if you quit months ago why do you still feel the need to post in the forums? Seems like a pretty silly way to spend your free time.

 

its called expressing an opinion.

 

if other choose to subscribe to that opinion then they clearly feel the same way

 

personally, i bought a 6 month sub so just waiting for that and the free time to run out then im gone, i'll be back when bioware get their act together.

[JeramieCrowe]

This isnt an RvR game, warhammer and guildwars etc are RvR games. And when we had what we had, of which the den is still in it became abused, people ignoring the pvp todo pve/pvp dailys, trading kills, base ganking via a bug.

 

It can and needs to be an RvR game, though.

[Shingara]

It can and needs to be an RvR game, though.

 

Ow im not disputting it cant be, im just saying there has to be a reason eg a target for doing it not just killing each other and gaining ranks. It can be done on the ground and also in space if they pull it off.

 

Wow has a zone that needs to be captured for a raid, vendors and dailys only available when you control the zone.

WAR had fort stations that you controled for land holding until you goto a main city and lower level areas for experience buffs and power/skill buffs.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Shingara

[JeramieCrowe]

Ow im not disputting it cant be, im just saying there has to be a reason eg a target for doing it not just killing each other and gaining ranks. It can be done on the ground and also in space if they pull it off.

 

Personally, I think they really need to pull in this third Hutt faction coming up into RvR. That opens up all kinds of opportunities and reasons for an objective past just gaining control of an area. Allow Smugglers and Bounty Hunters to pick Hutt when entering the area or something to that effect.

[Shingara]

Personally, I think they really need to pull in this third Hutt faction coming up into RvR. That opens up all kinds of opportunities and reasons for an objective past just gaining control of an area. Allow Smugglers and Bounty Hunters to pick Hutt when entering the area or something to that effect.

 

I can see what you mean but balancing issues would be a nightmare, player bountys maybe who knows for off the side but really what needs to be done and i think this specifically for illum and any future rvr zones is an operation within it unlocked when you control it on a timer. dailys unlocked via the opposing sides npcs spawning upon you winning the zone and the winning side uses the captured towers to hold back the forces for the dailys and the opposing side get a dif set of dailys for trying to help there npcs get through.

 

Do that on something like a 1 hour 30 min timer with the chance for the opposing side to knock it down to 1hr if there npcs get through so its enough time for people to flash the operation that drops pvp stuff and we have what i think is a winner.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Shingara

[JeramieCrowe]

I can see what you mean but balancing issues would be a nightmare, player bountys maybe who knows for off the side but really what needs to be done and i think this specifically for illum and any future rvr zones is an operation within it unlocked when you control it on a timer. dailys unlocked via the opposing sides npcs spawning upon you winning the zone and the winning side uses the captured towers to hold back the forces for the dailys and the opposing side get a dif set of dailys for trying to help there npcs get through.

 

Do that on something like a 1 hour 30 min timer with the chance for the opposing side to knock it down to 1hr if there npcs get through so its enough time for people to flash the operation that drops pvp stuff and we have what i think is a winner.

 

Well, I'm not an armchair developer, so I'm not going to go into postulating all the ways they can make it work. The bottom line, though, is that 3-faction RvR is what MMOs are doing more now. DAoC started it, it worked great, GW2 is doing it and TESO is going to do it. It's modern, and people obviously want it.

 

It's up to BioWare to find a way to make it work, and I saw great potential and suspect deeper reasonings behind E3's video of the Hutt Cartel rising as that 3rd faction to take over the galaxy.

 

I really think there's a lot more to it behind those "closed doors".

[Shingara]

Well, I'm not an armchair developer, so I'm not going to go into postulating all the ways they can make it work. The bottom line, though, is that 3-faction RvR is what MMOs are doing more now. DAoC started it, it worked great, GW2 is doing it and TESO is going to do it. It's modern, and people obviously want it.

 

It's up to BioWare to find a way to make it work, and I saw great potential and suspect deeper reasonings behind E3's video of the Hutt Cartel rising as that 3rd faction to take over the galaxy.

 

I really think there's a lot more to it behind those "closed doors".

 

well if your right im gonna need more char slots thats for sure.

[TUXs]

Well, I'm not an armchair developer, so I'm not going to go into postulating all the ways they can make it work. The bottom line, though, is that 3-faction RvR is what MMOs are doing more now. DAoC started it, it worked great, GW2 is doing it and TESO is going to do it. It's modern, and people obviously want it.

 

It's up to BioWare to find a way to make it work, and I saw great potential and suspect deeper reasonings behind E3's video of the Hutt Cartel rising as that 3rd faction to take over the galaxy.

 

I really think there's a lot more to it behind those "closed doors".

 

Interesting theory!!! I do hope you're correct. A 3rd faction brings natural balance!

[FeelFlow]

Good luck guys - can't wait for 1.3. And then, be great to let us know more about what your roadmap is and your vision for the game. Good things are on the way, I'm sure

[Ranid]

The video states that these new features were coming this year.

 

The blog reads

BioWare co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka took to the stage to unveil a new video highlighting only a small portion of the content cm tingo The Old Republic in the next year.

 

So which is it? We don't want to be told later that the video was a mistake.

 

Is it this year meaning the next 6 months (December 2012) or in the next year meaning 12 months. (June 2013)?