Adrenals & Relics - are they really the ones to blame?

[matslarson]

No crew skill should be more of a advantage then any other. But Biochem is a problem plain and simple.

The nerf is needed and will take away the huge difference in those that have it and those that do not.

 

Having watched the first 20 seconds of your pvp video (long enough to see you channel Mind Crush as your first move and then backpedal from a melee while completely ignoring the door) I feel confident agreeing with the earlier post calling your opinion invalid.

 

Every pvper worth his/her salt (which, as we already established, you aren't) knows that the warzone expertise adrenals are better for pvp than the craftable biochem adrenals. As warzone expertise adrenals are available to all players for the exact same cost and cannot be crafted by toons with biochem (until 1.3 drops lol) biochem offers no advantage whatsoever in pvp, except to save money on stims.

Edited June 10, 2012 by matslarson

[AngusFTW]

The expertise changes + adding expertise adrenal did add quite a lot of burst

[Bbizzle]

Biochem is the problem.

 

Biochem has always been the problem. When I got into beta pre-launch, I told my guild, Hey guys go biochem if your gonna pvp alot, its a game changer.

 

Biochem either needs to go away completely, or given to everyone on top of another crew skill. That leaves it so it can be viable, economy wise, yet not required for optimal success.

 

You cant just go around class to class and gut/nerf classes. People dont like nerfs. Ever. Dont nerf, tweak, change, but dont absolutely ruin a classes specs viability, Look how many Ops there were game start? Everywhere, now they all quit because they've been nerfed over and over again, meanwhile minus a few tweaks, like double dipping on the opener (which was a bug few used but the few absolutely abused.) (And no I dont mean open -> Stealth -> open. I mean open -> stealth -> open+open)

 

But if thier burst was the issue, or all the burster classes seem to be the problem, nerf the things that support burst. Biochem, first. You see where you stand after that, It's absolutely an intelligent move on biowares part to do this.

[matslarson]

Biochem has always been the problem. When I got into beta pre-launch, I told my guild, Hey guys go biochem if your gonna pvp alot, its a game changer.

 

Biochem either needs to go away completely, or given to everyone on top of another crew skill. That leaves it so it can be viable, economy wise, yet not required for optimal success.

 

You cant just go around class to class and gut/nerf classes. People dont like nerfs. Ever. Dont nerf, tweak, change, but dont absolutely ruin a classes specs viability, Look how many Ops there were game start? Everywhere, now they all quit because they've been nerfed over and over again, meanwhile minus a few tweaks, like double dipping on the opener (which was a bug few used but the few absolutely abused.) (And no I dont mean open -> Stealth -> open. I mean open -> stealth -> open+open)

 

But if thier burst was the issue, or all the burster classes seem to be the problem, nerf the things that support burst. Biochem, first. You see where you stand after that, It's absolutely an intelligent move on biowares part to do this.

 

Every pvper worth his/her salt (which, as we already established, you aren't) knows that the warzone expertise adrenals are better for pvp than the craftable biochem adrenals. As warzone expertise adrenals are available to all players for the exact same cost and cannot be crafted by toons with biochem (until 1.3 drops lol) biochem offers no advantage whatsoever in pvp, except to save money on stims.

 

Please read some of the thread before posting.

[Bbizzle]

Please read some of the thread before posting.

 

That's less fun. I responsed to the threads title, title better perhaps?

 

ADHD win.

[AngusFTW]

Biochem doesnt have THAT much benefit anymore. The rakata stims add what 2 or 3 points more to the stats and they're reusable whcih is about all they have now. Rakata med pack is ok if you run out of wz medpacks but wz medpacks heal you up more unless you have really bad gear...

 

I'm biochem and i always got a big supply of warzone expertise adrenals from alts instead of using my reusables in pvp. As a sentinel i never crit over 5k using rakata attack adrenal in pvp, i've got close but expertise adrenal gets there on a far more regular basis when used with a power relic. I do use the reusables in pve however.

Edited June 10, 2012 by AngusFTW

[ventvisor]

Lol...I am Biochem, and basically used it to make money off people raiding. The stims, medpacks, ect. I have my rakata stim, adrenal and medpack. I rarely...if ever you use my adrenal or relics (relic went buggy on me so i stopped using it) and I don't have much trouble in pvp. If adrenals and relics are this big of a deal to the other pvpers out there...I am looking forward to rolling them even more

 

Now...i understand people like there toys, but ehh...gotta adapt and move on. The actual good players stay good...and the average players, well...they reroll/craft the next op FOTM.

[Kurvv]

Every crafting profession has access to everything a biochemist does, albeit at a higher cost. Instead of crying about reusable adrenals (which good pvpers know are worse than the expertise adrenal) and stims, try looking for some of the non-reusable ones (that are just as good) on the gtn.

If youre on a server where theres no crafting population left, tough luck. Biochem shouldnt have to suffer for Biowares inability to manage server pops.

As a biochemist I think Im gonna start crying about all the synthweaver/armormechs/artificers/armstechs who can craft augmented gear, or the cybertechs who can craft reusable grenades, because although I can still obtain those items, I'd have to pay for them.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Kurvv

[WaveRun]

Biochem is a serious problem and if you say it isn't then you're delusional. I can nver get top dmg vs. someone who has biochem. srry pver's but this crew skill just needs to be removed and a waste of dev time. If you need to use medpacs in pve then you're bad anyways and it wont change that Edited June 10, 2012 by WaveRun

[LarryRow]

Guys you are missing the point. Yes, we all know the WZ adrenals and medpacs are better, but every time you buy one, you slow down your gear slog - um, I mean progression - to War Hero.

 

On the other hand, you can pop your reusables for a quick buff and not think anything of it.

 

1.3 will change this slightly since it will be easier to buy wz adrenals for credits if you want, but the reusable medpacs are still an issue.

[WaveRun]

Guys you are missing the point. Yes, we all know the WZ adrenals and medpacs are better, but every time you buy one, you slow down your gear slog - um, I mean progression - to War Hero.

 

On the other hand, you can pop your reusables for a quick buff and not think anything of it.

 

1.3 will change this slightly since it will be easier to buy wz adrenals for credits if you want, but the reusable medpacs are still an issue.

 

Just buy them from bazaar, no problem then. Plz remove biochem.

[Kurvv]

Biochem is a serious problem and if you say it isn't then you're delusional. I can nver get top dmg vs. someone who has biochem. srry pver's but this crew skill just needs to be removed and a waste of dev time. If you need to use medpacs in pve then you're bad anyways and it wont change that

 

Not sure if trolling.....

If you think biochem reusable adrenals are preventing you from getting top dmg, go buy some non-reusables off the gtn. Im sure youll shoot right up the dmg list.

And for the record, 1.3 notes say nothing about stims.

[Lord_Skycutter]

I don't know, Does 880 power on command have a negative impact on PvP? Hmmmm...

yep, definitely. It definitely has a massive, negative, unreliable, unbalancable impact on PvP.

 

Or you joking?

 

The 880 power of which you speak is ONLY available at the SAME TIME every 3 minutes. Most wzs are at most 15 min-ish long. That means that the 880 power is only available, at the most, 5 FULL times (assuming you pop stuff at the beginning and the end [That use would be kinda pointless and non-gamechanging other than to pad stats])

 

With this in mind. You have 4 game-changing moments that last 15-25 seconds out of a full 15 minute game. Lets not kid ourselves...those moments are probably not going to result in a win.

 

Also, how easy is it to look at an enemy player's buffs and use stuns to interrupt the 880 power moments?

 

Relics aren't the problem. Bad positioning, clicking skills, poor map awareness are....most of the baddies QQ about relics THEN forget to pop their own in WZs...

 

Player skill > Adrenals + Relics

[Spiderbubble]

I usually do fairly well in Warzones and only ever remember to pop my relics + adrenal twice or so per game. They're awkward for me to use most of the time (I use Shift+Click, Shift+Scrollup, Shift+Scrolldwn on Mouse wheel for the three) so I tend to forget/ignore it. I'm quite surprised you can't simply bind them all on a single key. It would make it easier.

 

But yeah, when I do use them, I might hit for 1000 more damage or so, which can be significant, but there are other things that cause big burst numbers.

 

I actually want to go back to the 1.1.5 expertise system, where damage reduction from expertise was actually higher than the damage bonus. Makes it so that every character is a bit more tanky inherently.

 

I'd also be fine with it if they upped the Endurance on all PvP gear and reduced the main stat/secondary stats.

[FourTwent]

I don't think so.

In my opinion, the reduced ttk in 1.2 was more a result of the expertise changes.

Damage increased by exp went up, healing gain went face down.

Combined with the sorc and commando healing nerfs, this brought the ttk down to the floor.

Sure, relics and adrenals make it even shorter, but I really don't think they are the core of the problem.

 

this has been what I've been preaching about the entire time!!!! +111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

[FourTwent]

The damage boost provided by expertise is directly and exactly countered by the dmg reduction given by expertise. (you seem to have forgotten about the defensive side of expertise )

 

The healing part is a bonus..

 

No, damage bonus and damage mitigation bonus from expertise USED to be even, which would cancel each other out. Since 1.2 the damage bonus is MORE than the damage mitigation.

[FourTwent]

Biochem doesn't give you an advantage; it just helps you save money, lol.

 

this!

[ZDProletariat]

No, damage bonus and damage mitigation bonus from expertise USED to be even, which would cancel each other out. Since 1.2 the damage bonus is MORE than the damage mitigation.

 

Sorry, but you are in fact very wrong. It's simple to do the math, but some people apparently have troubles with percentages.

If you do 1000 damage, then apply the 22% damage buff of expertise, then apply the 18% damage reduction of opponent's expertise, you do 1000 damage.

(1000)*(1.22)*(.82)=1000.4

Before, expertise reduction did more than the damage boost. It was not even. Now it is.

[FourTwent]

Sorry, but you are in fact very wrong. It's simple to do the math, but some people apparently have troubles with percentages.

If you do 1000 damage, then apply the 22% damage buff of expertise, then apply the 18% damage reduction of opponent's expertise, you do 1000 damage.

(1000)*(1.22)*(.82)=1000.4

Before, expertise reduction did more than the damage boost. It was not even. Now it is.

 

mind = blown(if the math is right and scales the same)

 

adrenals and relics still aren't the cause though. and if anything this is just a temporary fix to a much bigger issue. it's like bioware is admitting to never actually testing the game and the elements that effect it(which is similar to them restricting 1 medpac per fight, they didn't test it, so they put a bandaid over it)

Edited June 10, 2012 by FourTwent

[Laforet]

The damage boost provided by expertise is directly and exactly countered by the dmg reduction given by expertise. (you seem to have forgotten about the defensive side of expertise )

 

The healing part is a bonus.

 

 

On topic. Adrenals and & relics change will make killing players take a couple of seconds longer, but the change is just a band aid, they don't fix the difference in power between classes.

 

This, and they just eliminated any reason to play scrapper/concealment if they implement this change without giving them a little buff.

[cashogy]

I don't think so.

In my opinion, the reduced ttk in 1.2 was more a result of the expertise changes.

Damage increased by exp went up, healing gain went face down.

Combined with the sorc and commando healing nerfs, this brought the ttk down to the floor.

Sure, relics and adrenals make it even shorter, but I really don't think they are the core of the problem.

 

the expertise had literally zero to do with TTK. if you are properly geared for PvP, your defensive PvP bonus fully negates your opponents offensive PvP bonus.

 

the perceived increase in TTK comes because, for some unknown and irrational reason, the vast majority of players are incapable of properly gearing up. fresh 50s who cba to get recruit gear, morons trying to mix PvE and PvP gear still, etc.

 

Adrenals and Stims getting nerfed? i really dont care. its going to put a larger influence on team coordination, as a single player wont be able to blow up a healer in a pinch. It actually is a step toward making the game much more competitive and more focused on skill based player rather than buff stacking.

[Laforet]

1.2 adrenal shot was ridiculous for some classes, especially (but not only) pt pyros.

 

The problem is that pt pyro will still be a good class withouth relics, as will marauders.

 

What will be the fate of concealment ops after the adrenal nerf, i wonder?

[Mirthadrond]

Funny, as a person that doesnt use biochem, I dont have a problem with it, or find it negative, unbalancable or massive.

 

That's because you DONT use it. If you did, you would understand the advantage it gives you. But you dont use it, so you don't know... apparently.

 

Regardless - as posted before - Biochem is just 1 issue with PVP. It is not the end all be all of balance changes.

On paper, it looks good.

 

At any rate. IF people really wanted to keep biochem adrenals in PVP, then I think Biochem needs to be reconfigured. Either allow anyone to buy/use reusables, OR reduce the cost / materials to craft regular consumables so they can be reasonably priced.

Crafting costs for green and blue biochem consumables are ridiculously high. Crafting of purple biochem items SHOULD be ridiculously high since they are unbound, powerful, reusable, and never need to be repaired.

 

But personally - I think removing them from PVP use is a better option, for the time being.

[WaveRun]

Well, I can see here some of the WoW tards are trying to defend Biochem as to why it's not OP. Currently, I have done some testing. I tested damage on a training dummy as a leathal sniper without biochem vs the damage of a marksman sniper with biochem (friend play this one). The damage difference was huge. The marksman sniper with biochem had nearly 3x the amount of damage that I had done. Not to mention, they would have better survivability too with the OP rakata medpac and warzone medpac combined. The simple solution is to just remove biochem. That's it. There is no need for this nonsense. I'm sorry PvEr's, but if you need a medpac to survive then you shouldn't be pveing. It's really that simple. I have never used medpacs or adrenals in PvE before and have had no need at all for them. Bads will be bads. Edited June 11, 2012 by WaveRun

[dcgregorya]

...they don't fix the difference in power between classes.

 

What difference in power between the classes? I hear all this on the forums every day but everytime *I* play something it does fine. Operative/scoundrel conceal/scrapper is weak because once they're out of stealth they lack survivability for being at melee range and lack escape mechanisms (they have to blow both evasion and vanish to get out of combat which nukes their defensive/escapecapabilities) and will be even weaker with relic changes. But aside from that single example, the "power differences between classes" is miniscule when played properly.