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Why Sent/Mara's balance issues must be addressed prior to rateds:


RendakFel

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Coming from a PvP guild master, my biggest issue with Sents/Mara's is this:

 

It is realistically feasible that if rateds ever come out it is likely that an 8 man Sent/Mara team would be entirely viable. If something about that doesn't seem wrong to you, no amount of logic/reasoning will change anything.

 

In General PVP:

Marauders excel at breaking a hostile team's lines. They can survive the penetration, and they can deal out massive damage while controlling the other players. Multiple marauders handing out small heals through berserk can more then cover the limited damage incoming through the defensive cooldowns+ CC+ interrupts. I am not saying this AC should be excluded from PvP through nerfs, etc. I am saying a vaild PvP team should not be required to bring multiple of them or consist entirely of them in order to be successful. The Marauder AC has a tool to fit every situation.

 

The threat of 8 "stunlock" operatives owning a WZ lead directly to them getting virtually nerfed out of existence. While I disagree that things should be taken even remotely that far, self interest should dictate that Players which call this AC their main should start coming up with constructive posts on how to bring their class in tune with others AC's before Bioware bends them over from behind. One thing can be assured. Someone, somewhere (probably on The Fatman), will try this and run it well. From that moment on, the nerf bat will start swinging and guilds that are built around this AC probably won't survive it given the current gear grind required to retool an alt for PvP. As a guild master, I hope this gets addressed before this AC becomes a crutch pvp guilds cannot survive without.

 

While this is a short list of some of the capabilities of the class, this isn't a QQ they did X and it means Y thread. I am highlighting some of the reasons an 8m team of this AC is very viable in WZ's.

I view the Marauder AC as the go to class for putting someone out of the game. They have the defensive CD's to survive unattended for a period of time, and the "lock down" capacity through interrupts, snares, roots, and pure damage to either stop another player from doing what they are aiming to do or outright force the player to go defensive on their own. A skilled marauder, not CC'd or "handled" will kill any AC if they use their CD's well. This is in spite of any external assistance to the marauder, and often times this effect can be achieved even if the target is receiving assistance from their team. (Read: 8v8 Warzone just became 7v8 as one AC just accounted for 2 players. Not many people would enjoy PvPing always playing a man down.)

 

This AC has an AOE mez which does wonders for breaking up incoming burst and all the interrupts in the world to royally wreck a healer. The combination of the stealth's ability to "vanish" incoming damage, much like a rogue could in WoW, and the target drop makes focus fire on non marked targets difficult. And lets be honest, picking out 1 identical looking toon in a mass of the same AC's with the games current tab targeting would be a joke. Yeah, I hear how the obfuscate ability is situational. It affects white dmg attacks and all that, and many sents/mara's say it's useless. However, Powertech's which everyone QQ's about, have front loaded burst which neatly falls under that 6 seconds. Use that first, you've eliminated that PT as a threat to your entire team for 6 seconds. If your argument is that 6 seconds isn't that long, I am not sure what game you are playing. The forums exploded with TTK threads after 1.2 and 6 seconds is very much a life time.

 

Voidstar: It would be impossible to break a door against a team of competent and aware Mara/Sent AC's. They have the defensive to survive more then long enough for the door to open on defense. Couple in the AOE healing, Leap+ ravage, and the aoe CC, it would be very difficult to make headway on the team even before you forced them to rely upon re-spawns. On offense, the combination of stealth and kill power gives Sents/Mara's a significant advantage for capping a door. Combine that with an AOE CC chain and it would be very easy to break a door.

 

Huttball: Leap anyone? Choke in fire, root in fire. I'm not making a statement here about how other classes cannot do these things. Obviously they can, and some can do various aspects of this far better. The point is that ONE AC X8 should not be more viable then a well balanced team on the opposing side.

 

Civil War: Same issue as with Voidstar here. The combination of the incredible focus fire, easy of mobility, and defensive CD's would make cleaning off a point childs play. This isn't an argument about skill here. Stmp, a one of the best Marauders to ever play the game, could do these things pre-buff in 1.2. I recognize that most good sents/mara's have around 35-45 keybindings and that managing them takes skill. However, in this situation the fight would be over after the first 3-4 were used. No amount of healing, no amount of guards, and no amount of tanks would prevent this. Someone taunts you? Kill them first. You do full damage to them. 3 good dps focusing a tank can still virtually global the tank, if heals are CC'd.

 

Novare Coast: Mobility and fast reinforcements can win Novare. Nothing is faster than a Mara/sent with predation up. This warzone would likely be the hardest for a team of 8 Mara/Sent AC's to "zerg", but I doubt it would be very unlikely for them to clean house with well timed CC's and good focus fire.

 

The post is in no way suggesting that the best rated team come rated Warzones will be 8 sents/ 8 mara's. But it is entirely possible that it could happen under the current balancing. That AC has a tool to deal with every other AC. It's just a matter if the player has the skill to unlock it. However, what really blows the lid off this, is how well the utility of the class multiplies the effectiveness of other AC's around it.

 

I do not have an issue with skilled marauders owning. Skilled players own, because skilled players own.

Edited by RendakFel
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i really dont see what the big deal is about sent/mara you snare them while walking around them while there def. CD's burn down. Then CC do a dps rotation and there dead.

 

In a simple 1v1. Sure. I am not talking about 1v1.

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I honestly don't understand why you think an 8-man marauder/sent team would do all that well, especially given how effective well-equipped tanks are at locking them down completely. Some of the tanks on my server actually take shielding now specifically for good carnage/annhi marauders, because all of the damage can be shielded and mitigated accordingly. Top it off with guard + taunts and you have a situation where you're doing diddly squat to the healer, and the tank can simply mitigate most of your incoming damage.

 

Rage is a somewhat viable counter to this, but by that argument a 8-man premade of rage juggernauts is just as effective, no?

 

Your statement that the heals from berserk would be sufficient is entirely incorrect; the amount healed in the group is only 1% of total hp. Essentially, with ALL EIGHT marauders having it up (and that could only realistically happen at the beginning of the game, which means noone used bloodthirst.) then they're all being healed for a whopping 8% of their hp for six seconds. With talent each individual would be getting healed for 11% of their hp for that duration of course.

 

Initial response? "How insanely op'd! They can constantly heal up to full in no time all game long!" That's incorrect. In order to pop berserk you need to -survive- long enough to do it. Yes, marauders have excellent defensive cooldowns that give them similar passive mitigation to a tank for a short duration of time - after that they're in medium armor with cloak of pain up at best. No matter what you say, nothing is going to change the fact that two assassin tanks + two guarded healers (preferably ops/merc) + 4 excellent dps (preferably mara/pyro) will completely and utterly stomp the living crap out of an eight-man marauder team.

 

In short, you're taking a class that's good on its own and saying eight of them will have a multiplier effect that makes them unbeatable. You can do that for any class. Can you imagine an eight-man team of rage juggernauts? An eight-man team of pyrotechs? What about an eight-man team of tank-assassins? An eight man team of ANY of the strong specs in the game would be annoying as sin to fight. This thread seems to just want to keep up with the marauder hate train.

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Yeah I stopped reading when you said the stabby ops were bad now...

 

You do know two can wreck a single target like killer whales eat seals right?

 

Remind me where I said DPS ops were bad? I said they got nerfed, and the player base that played them quit. I routinely run with a "stabby" ops. He's an incredibly good player and absolutely melts anything he gets near.

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I honestly don't understand why you think an 8-man marauder/sent team would do all that well, especially given how effective well-equipped tanks are at locking them down completely. Some of the tanks on my server actually take shielding now specifically for good carnage/annhi marauders, because all of the damage can be shielded and mitigated accordingly. Top it off with guard + taunts and you have a situation where you're doing diddly squat to the healer, and the tank can simply mitigate most of your incoming damage.

 

Rage is a somewhat viable counter to this, but by that argument a 8-man premade of rage juggernauts is just as effective, no?

 

Your statement that the heals from berserk would be sufficient is entirely incorrect; the amount healed in the group is only 1% of total hp. Essentially, with ALL EIGHT marauders having it up (and that could only realistically happen at the beginning of the game, which means noone used bloodthirst.) then they're all being healed for a whopping 8% of their hp for six seconds. With talent each individual would be getting healed for 11% of their hp for that duration of course.

 

Initial response? "How insanely op'd! They can constantly heal up to full in no time all game long!" That's incorrect. In order to pop berserk you need to -survive- long enough to do it. Yes, marauders have excellent defensive cooldowns that give them similar passive mitigation to a tank for a short duration of time - after that they're in medium armor with cloak of pain up at best. No matter what you say, nothing is going to change the fact that two assassin tanks + two guarded healers (preferably ops/merc) + 4 excellent dps (preferably mara/pyro) will completely and utterly stomp the living crap out of an eight-man marauder team.

 

In short, you're taking a class that's good on its own and saying eight of them will have a multiplier effect that makes them unbeatable. You can do that for any class. Can you imagine an eight-man team of rage juggernauts? An eight-man team of pyrotechs? What about an eight-man team of tank-assassins? An eight man team of ANY of the strong specs in the game would be annoying as sin to fight. This thread seems to just want to keep up with the marauder hate train.

 

I love people that think.

 

Go 2v2 and put a tankasin + healer against a marauder + healer of the same type if you think marauders are oh so powerful and see how well that goes... Oh then after that think about how broken arena would be in this game.

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I honestly don't understand why you think an 8-man marauder/sent team would do all that well, especially given how effective well-equipped tanks are at locking them down completely. Some of the tanks on my server actually take shielding now specifically for good carnage/annhi marauders, because all of the damage can be shielded and mitigated accordingly. Top it off with guard + taunts and you have a situation where you're doing diddly squat to the healer, and the tank can simply mitigate most of your incoming damage.

 

Earlier today I watched two Carnage spec'd Marauders melt a tank while taunted. Could be that the tank was bad. Could be that the tank was poorly geared. Either way, I know all of my guild Marauders litterally frome at the mouth when they see a guarded healer. Interrupt all the heals, burn the healer. Sure it takes longer, but the tank dies too and you don't need to worry about any of those nifty defensive stats on the tank causing you to miss.

 

Rage is a somewhat viable counter to this, but by that argument a 8-man premade of rage juggernauts is just as effective, no?

 

Your statement that the heals from berserk would be sufficient is entirely incorrect; the amount healed in the group is only 1% of total hp. Essentially, with ALL EIGHT marauders having it up (and that could only realistically happen at the beginning of the game, which means noone used bloodthirst.) then they're all being healed for a whopping 8% of their hp for six seconds. With talent each individual would be getting healed for 11% of their hp for that duration of course.

 

This is incorrect. A properly geared Annilihlation maruader, (yes I know this is just one spec), will deal out roughly 1/3-1/4 of personal dmg dealt in healing. This is based of crits on dots. Berserk guarantees this. That is significantly more then 1% hp. Additionally, the point of this isn't to heal as well as a healer, it is to prolong deaths while preventing the other team from running an objective. It only requires one marauder per party to activate Bloodthirst.

 

Initial response? "How insanely op'd! They can constantly heal up to full in no time all game long!" That's incorrect. In order to pop berserk you need to -survive- long enough to do it. Yes, marauders have excellent defensive cooldowns that give them similar passive mitigation to a tank for a short duration of time - after that they're in medium armor with cloak of pain up at best. No matter what you say, nothing is going to change the fact that two assassin tanks + two guarded healers (preferably ops/merc) + 4 excellent dps (preferably mara/pyro) will completely and utterly stomp the living crap out of an eight-man marauder team.

 

In short, you're taking a class that's good on its own and saying eight of them will have a multiplier effect that makes them unbeatable. You can do that for any class. Can you imagine an eight-man team of rage juggernauts? An eight-man team of pyrotechs? What about an eight-man team of tank-assassins? An eight man team of ANY of the strong specs in the game would be annoying as sin to fight. This thread seems to just want to keep up with the marauder hate train.

 

I am not saying this is an absolute. Obviously we can't see it to find out. I suspect from my experiences playing a marauder, from what I have seen, and what I know about how creative players are, this is more realistically possible then you are giving credit. As I said in my OP, I don't hate this AC. I think it needs very minor tuning, but that it is a very good idea for players to start suggesting such tunes before Bioware goes overboard with it.

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Remind me where I said DPS ops were bad? I said they got nerfed, and the player base that played them quit. I routinely run with a "stabby" ops. He's an incredibly good player and absolutely melts anything he gets near.

 

The threat of 8 "stunlock" operatives owning a WZ lead directly to them getting virtually nerfed out of existence.

 

Not bad but if you think that's why they got nerfed then you're crazy. Also before 1.2 nerfs what were they going to do? Hope they could do well without stealth every two minutes? They're far too squishy to hold out any game at 8 of them.

 

Too many of you people think rateds will be 8v8 deathmatch and that's how it's going to matter when it's not the case at all. Oh and you all talk like it too.

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I love people that think.

 

Go 2v2 and put a tankasin + healer against a marauder + healer of the same type if you think marauders are oh so powerful and see how well that goes... Oh then after that think about how broken arena would be in this game.

 

This thread isn't about Tank assasin's. Yeah, Tank assassins have way too much in terms of what they hybrid can bring to the table, but I wouldn't stack them. Max, I will have 1 per 8m team. The post is about the tools available to the AC.

 

The point is, 8 of one AC in a wz should not be viable. Go ahead an make a list of the AC's you feel that applies to, but it's going to be a short list.

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Earlier today I watched two Carnage spec'd Marauders melt a tank while taunted. Could be that the tank was bad. Could be that the tank was poorly geared. Either way, I know all of my guild Marauders litterally frome at the mouth when they see a guarded healer. Interrupt all the heals, burn the healer. Sure it takes longer, but the tank dies too and you don't need to worry about any of those nifty defensive stats on the tank causing you to miss.

 

I dunno then, there's one Vanguard tank on our server in particular with 24.5k hp with full shielding and augmented WH. It takes an entire team focusing him in order to get him down within any serious time-frame. If he guards a scoundrel healer you can call it GG right there - once they pop their green bubble suddenly every single marauder attack misses.

 

This is incorrect. A properly geared Annilihlation maruader, (yes I know this is just one spec), will deal out roughly 1/3-1/4 of personal dmg dealt in healing. This is based of crits on dots. Berserk guarantees this. That is significantly more then 1% hp. Additionally, the point of this isn't to heal as well as a healer, it is to prolong deaths while preventing the other team from running an objective. It only requires one marauder per party to activate Bloodthirst.

 

Actually it is 1% hp. I would know because I played a WH augmented + stimmed Annhi marauder and have since launch, the tooltip states it heals for 1% of your party's total hp for the duration of berserk, it is not a percentage of the overall damage done. The talented parent gives the marauder himself an additional 3% or so (can't recall the exact number but it's either 2 or 3) on top of that when berserk is up. Otherwise the dots critting will only heal himself for whatever that talent is.

 

Also, if a marauder is doing 1/3rd of their damage in healing, they need to stop doing 250-300k then. I pull 500-650k damage on my marauder and I only get 100k healing, that's with hitting berserk every second it comes up. I can post screenshots for you if you need me to prove my point.

 

Overall, saying one marauder is going to heal an entire group is just silly; it's 1% of your total hp bar. By your logic, pyrotechs would be invincible with their 15% overtime self-heal. :p

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Coming from a PvP guild master, my biggest issue with Sents/Mara's is this:

 

It is realistically feasible that if rateds ever come out it is likely that an 8 man Sent/Mara team would be entirely viable. If something about that doesn't seem wrong to you, no amount of logic/reasoning will change anything.

 

 

You lost all credibility the moment I read this. I'm hoping this is hyperbole and you don't actually believe this or I feel bad for the PvPers in your guild.

 

If a group of people were crazy enough to make an 8 man Mara/Sent team for rateds;they would easily be countered by a variety of other teams,notably any team with a decent combo of Sniper/GS, tankassins, PTs.

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8 snipers could one shot everyone in an ops or kill a sent in a stun. 8 lightning sorcs could do the same 8 pts could global 2 player at a time. This thread could be made for any class.

 

2 aoe taunts and force freeze would destroy this team.

 

8 Snipers would never get anywhere in teh WZ. Same with the Powertechs. It isn't a question of DPS. Mobility gives the edge to marauders. 8 sorc's would be laughable.

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8 Snipers would never get anywhere in teh WZ. Same with the Powertechs. It isn't a question of DPS. Mobility gives the edge to marauders. 8 sorc's would be laughable.

 

Can you even comprehend the damage numbers 8 pyrotech would put out in the opening 15 seconds of a huttball when everyone hits mid? Trinket + stims + all cooldowns blown + near-guaranteed crits.

 

My god, the tears. The tears.

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This is incorrect. A properly geared Annilihlation maruader, (yes I know this is just one spec), will deal out roughly 1/3-1/4 of personal dmg dealt in healing. This is based of crits on dots. Berserk guarantees this. That is significantly more then 1% hp. Additionally, the point of this isn't to heal as well as a healer, it is to prolong deaths while preventing the other team from running an objective. It only requires one marauder per party to activate Bloodthirst.

 

 

I am not saying this is an absolute. Obviously we can't see it to find out. I suspect from my experiences playing a marauder, from what I have seen, and what I know about how creative players are, this is more realistically possible then you are giving credit. As I said in my OP, I don't hate this AC. I think it needs very minor tuning, but that it is a very good idea for players to start suggesting such tunes before Bioware goes overboard with it.

 

Dot crits heal the marauder for 2% of their hp before trauma and with berserk up it will heal for 3% before trauma.

 

18,000*.02= 360 hp before trauma, 70% of 360 = 252 a tick dot crit.

 

With berserk it's an additional 1% healing for the 6 dot crits.

 

18,000*.03= 540, 540*.7= 378*6= 2268. 2268/18,000= .126 or 1/8th of their HP bar.

 

So please learn to math. Marauders healing isn't OMG AMAZING.

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This thread isn't about Tank assasin's. Yeah, Tank assassins have way too much in terms of what they hybrid can bring to the table, but I wouldn't stack them. Max, I will have 1 per 8m team. The post is about the tools available to the AC.

 

The point is, 8 of one AC in a wz should not be viable. Go ahead an make a list of the AC's you feel that applies to, but it's going to be a short list.

 

If you think 8 marauders is viable then you're not very smart good sir.

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Can you even comprehend the damage numbers 8 pyrotech would put out in the opening 15 seconds of a huttball when everyone hits mid? Trinket + stims + all cooldowns blown + near-guaranteed crits.

 

My god, the tears. The tears.

 

lol it'd be hilarious!

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Coming from a PvP guild master, my biggest issue with Sents/Mara's is this.

 

Stopped reading here. Actually I did read a little. An 8 man sent team would get wrecked. Besides what are the odds of 8 good sents on 1 server?

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Dot crits heal the marauder for 2% of their hp before trauma and with berserk up it will heal for 3% before trauma.

 

18,000*.02= 360 hp before trauma, 70% of 360 = 252 a tick dot crit.

 

With berserk it's an additional 1% healing for the 6 dot crits.

 

18,000*.03= 540, 540*.7= 378*6= 2268. 2268/18,000= .126 or 1/8th of their HP bar.

 

So please learn to math. Marauders healing isn't OMG AMAZING.

 

Sure, lets see your paper math in action.

 

http://imageshack.us/f/138/warvwar.jpg/

 

480k dmg done on a stalemate Voidstar. Obviously far from the highest numbers possible. 128k healing. Right about 1/4.

 

And yeah. Powertech's do crazy damage. But dps can just make some games harder since you are continually hitting respawns, often at bad times.

 

http://imageshack.us/f/269/prime8kcrit.jpg/

 

Refrain from the personal attacks. My concern isn't that Marauder AC is Overpowered. My concern is that it will get over nerfed too harshly.

Edited by RendakFel
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8 mauraders would be awesome... but Id get rid of say 2 of them for some healers, defenseive panic buttons are nice, but they arent a substitute for long term sustainance.

 

So, 6 with 2 Healers... Though, now that I think about it, the Mauraders panic button defense that everyone deifies doesnt really help others, just lets them be focused on for a few more seconds...so Id probably dump 2 more for a couple tanks.

 

so, 4 with 2 heals and 2 tanks... but Mauraders are pure melee, get kited around and arent the must subtle classes. I'd probably see about cutting out 2-3 of that 4 remaining for some ranged or AOE dps. And maybe a stealther even for ninja purposes.

 

So yeah, with the above tweaks to a team an 8 maurader party would be really viable once you trade 6-7 of them for a more flexible squad.

 

Anytime a group gets stomped heres what i hear

"they have too many healers!" or "We needed more heals"

Ive never once heard

"They just have too many Mauraders." or "we really needed more Mauraders"

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4 steps if you see 8 marauders.

 

1. Ball up.

2. AoE.

3. ?????*

4. Profit.

 

*Remember, excessive laughing during step 3 due to the effectiveness of step 2 can foil your plan.

 

Randomly find a team with a couple Rage Maras?

Spread out, cross-taunt, use your range, AOE to get them backed up on healing, and focus fire (GASP this is the same strategy against any standard team!). Here's the kicker.... Press tab when they've got UR up.

 

More than 3 Maras against a competent and balanced team is a death sentence.

 

If you want to address extreme problems before rated, pay some mind to that part where Commandos are simply not viable in competitive PvP and DPS Sages/Scoundrels are just barely viable. But then you can pay attention to the fact that they're starting with PRE-season in order to sort out these imbalances.

Edited by Apocalypse-
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