The elephant in the room

[GreatGarth]

Yes the reason why the populations are low is because they added to many servers because so many people were crying about waiting to log into a server and play.

 

If you want to see a game that has some seriously unhappy players go read the D3 forums.

 

Well good on them for opening them. Now close them, how is that so difficult to understand...and what's taking so long.

Copy and paste, it should be easy.

[Nyla]

Well, not sure what's the point of this thread ?

 

Yes, game isn't perfect and needs some changes but low-pop servers don't help so it's a start as it enables people that still play to find more opportunity to do content.

 

Of course, it's not enough.

 

 

And btw I'm getting tired of the single-thread thing. Open the taskmanager, add the threads column on the process page, right now I have 2 instances of SWTOR, one with 13 threads, the other with 25. It was said that "the simulation and rendering processes of the engine are currently run on a single-thread", but it's not all the engine or the game, only a part, and we don't know how much change BW did to the engine.

[Goretzu]

OP do you watch the news very often? The WHOLE world economy is in a recession. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the lost subs are from players who's unemployment ran out and can't afford to live much less play an mmo.

 

So many chicken little's on this forum and only one sky that's always falling.

 

My entire guild left, not one of them left because of unemployment.

 

They all left because of game or game play issues (not population either).

[Tiaa]

Yes the reason why the populations are low is because they added to many servers because so many people were crying about waiting to log into a server and play.

 

If you want to see a game that has some seriously unhappy players go read the D3 forums.

 

That may be.

 

But that has little to do with Bioware not being prepared for what they claim "was to be expected".

 

If Bioware expected players to leave, as they say, then why was there no back up plan?

 

Server deaths are not new to MMOs.

 

Diablo 3 has more players than this game has, is not a MMO and does not have a subscription fee.

 

How is it related to SWTOR...in any way other than they are both online computer games?

Edited June 3, 2012 by Tiaa

[Littlegem]

World of Warcraft was very polished when it launched.. in comparison to what else was around at the time.

Love it or hate it but the dumbed down mechanics and look and feel made it very accessible by all.

SWtor is less so in comparison to what's around right now.

I dont think that's a flaw personally. The market has moved on alot in the last 5 years or so and comparisons to WoW or Galaxies etc....or hoping for the "next massive technical leap forward" were simply not going to happen.

 

SW has flaws, but the biggest problem of all has been the hype surrounding the "expected" sub numbers. It was unrealistic to start with in my view. It has lead to countless issues with regards to the games PR.

Its a great game with a bright future if developed correctly ongoing.....but it will occupy a niche in what is already quite a small sector of the overall gaming market to start with.

Personally I am fine with that.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Littlegem

[Kubernetic]

You fail to understand, a lot of people subscribe, but don't play as much anymore. BioWare fails to understand that, these people, myself included, won't continue to subscribe and play less for much longer.

 

I love this kind of reasoning. It's as if the BioWare staff just wanders around their building each and every day, mumbling, half-chewing Twinkies and spitting Twinkie-stuff all over the carpet, moaning at each other and throwing potted plants.

 

It's not like they go into work every day to do a job. It's not like they have data sets and metrics to review and reporting that they can plug into from the game's statistical analysis.

 

Nope. They just somehow wander into the building, fart around all day, then walk back out the door somewhere around quitting time.

 

/sarcasm

 

What is with these people? When did folks just suddenly stop thinking and start making stuff up just to please themselves?

[Sanxxx]

I love this kind of reasoning. It's as if the BioWare staff just wanders around their building each and every day, mumbling, half-chewing Twinkies and spitting Twinkie-stuff all over the carpet, moaning at each other and throwing potted plants.

 

It's not like they go into work every day to do a job. It's not like they have data sets and metrics to review and reporting that they can plug into from the game's statistical analysis.

 

Nope. They just somehow wander into the building, fart around all day, then walk back out the door somewhere around quitting time.

 

/sarcasm

 

What is with these people? When did folks just suddenly stop thinking and start making stuff up just to please themselves?

 

 

As you say, they obviously have all the data, metrics etc, it's what they've chosen to do or not do as a result of that data that is ......'pick word of choice'

[Kalfear]

Dropping from 2 million to 1.3 million isn't a 70% drop. it's a 35% drop , and it's also inevitable as people try out the game and inevitably some of them decide they don't like it.

 

At least do the math right.

 

PS : Didn't they say they need 400k subscribers to break even and anything else is pure gravy ? I don't think SWTOR is shuttering the doors any time soon.

 

1.3 mil includes the free month given out. We really have no clue how many people are actually playing.

 

It was 500,000, not 400,000 and its from 2.1 to 1.7 to 1.3 as stated and that includes all the free 30 day accounts and free trial accounts in the final number!

 

We dont know the actual number but we do know its not 1.3 million. Id be surprised if they are over 1 million any longer looking at server status's.

 

Your right its not closing anytime soon but games are veiwed as dead and gone long before they forced to close up shop. The word of mouth right now so bad that its pretty much make or break time for SW:TOR.

[Kalfear]

My reasons why the game failed (in no particular order):

1. The class story lacked real choices (didn't go through all of them but the stories I did see lacked any meaningful choice)

2. Class story on republic side was boring (I wanted to play a Jedi Knight but couldn't stand the story)

3. Lack of exploration (some of the planets like Coruscant or Nar Shadaa are just hallways)

4. The planets are very static with no weather, no day/night cycles, and the mobs just stand there waiting to die

5.The music is good, for the small amount of time it plays, but on every planet I have to listen to the sound of my speeder for just about the whole time I am there.

6. OPs are easy, when you don't hit bugs, and gear from them is way too easy to get

7. I can't level alts, after leveling a character on each faction, without having to replay the same story in the same order. Yes there are class quests, but they are far and few between.

8. PVP is gear based without it you get slaughtered. Didn't mind 1-49, though it got tedious playing the same warzones again and again. It is also unbalanced, not that I expected it to be as it is a difficult thing to do.

9. World PVP happened to me exactly once while leveling.

10. cant swim all the water features are shallow

11. No x-server LFG

12. Extreme population problems and lack of action to correct it

13. The game runs terribly and graphics aren't that good

14. Combat is not very fluid and there are ability delays

15. The game copies heavily from WoW

16. No same gender romance options

17. Lack of in game combat logs

18. Lack of addons. Some people hate them but for people with disabilities it can be very beneficial and allow them a much better gameplay experience. I'm not disabled I just saw a post about this and it made me realize how it could allow much better access to the game and content for some people.

19. No alien species, I mean seriously they are all pretty much recolored humans. Would have liked to see Togruta, Cathar, or Trandoshans as playable.

20. Character customization is seriously lacking; a lot of clones.

21. No way of character customization changes after creation; ie changing hairstyles or adding scars.

22. Nothing to in end-game that is non-combat like pazaak, swoop racing, or pod racing

23. No chat bubbles

24. Can't sit in chairs

25. Space Combat is unintuitive and on rails

26.Crafting is almost useless and is going to be even worse in next patch

27. Lack of intuitive guild features

28. The amount of bugs and the time it is taking to fix them

29. Gear design was terrible (I liked the gear I got in the beginning better then tier gear)

30. Can't have my companions in my legacy tree; this is a very bad oversight.

31. Social points were a good idea but they are poorly implemented.

32. No reputation grinds; it adds to re-playability and can give cool non-combat rewards

33. Can't customize my ship

34. Too many loading screens

35.The fleet was poorly done all the vendors on the fleet should be on Dromund Kaas and Coruscant. Also the Republic fleet looks terrible.

36. The GTN

37.No non-combat macros

38. Customer service; they had closed many of my tickets without resolving them. Also the Hoth incident accusing player of being liars and fraudulent.

 

You know, im pretty critical of SW:TOR but yeah, this list is out to lunch in a massive way and cant say I agree with much of it!

 

Reads like someone thats looking for something to complain about rather then a actual player giving real feedback.

[USMCjv]

You know, im pretty critical of SW:TOR but yeah, this list is out to lunch in a massive way and cant say I agree with much of it!

 

Reads like someone thats looking for something to complain about rather then a actual player giving real feedback.

They are the reasons I left, I never said they were game-breaking for everyone. I'm not complaining, I'm criticizing; I'm showing what I disliked in the hopes it will change and bring me back.

Edited June 3, 2012 by USMCjv

[Namesis]

I am tired of all the defenders of bioware- the game is 6 months old, you cried about q's. ect.

****.

They released a half assed game filled with bugs that are still not fixed. If they didnt put in a mechanism to control population it was an asinine decision plain and simple.

 

I for one did not complain about q's but could understand. I didnt put a gun to bios head and say servers now. Why would you open up servers knowing that pop trends (they said they expected this) downward and have no way to move people?

Then there is the bait and switch with the rated wz as some have put it. If it was a simple fix it should have been implemented already. Transfers are the same thing i am afraid resub then something will happen to change things after they have your money.

Lets not even get into ilum or other stupid things the devs have said. (stun lock operatives).

They did all to themselves and need to look in the mirror. I sent in bug reports in the beta that are still here.

Bio feels legacy is more inportant than anything else or in Jan/feb the focus/priorities would have shifted to what plagues this game.

 

I enjoy this game but frankly now have a morbid sense and want a deck chair on the tortanic just to see how bad it actually gets before they pull the plug. I have seen sub estimates below 700K now.

[blur]

You spent 1000s of hours to add in voice acting and never actually made end-game content that was challenging and fun.

 

Yep... too much time running around shouting, "We're fully voiced!" and "We've got story!" and not enough time making a game that was actually fun or challenging. Agree 100%

[FourTwent]

They lost 400k subs after giving every account with a level 50 30 days free. So, 400k people quit before they even hit 50. With 90 servers at less than 100 people online EVER...... perhaps you are need of some math tutoring.

 

I gotta agree with the other poster. You might also wanna get some English lessons as well

 

If you're gonna bash on the Devs and TOR at LEAST get the math right.

 

Assuming the game has 200k paid subs is laughable at best. . .bordering on insulting(which of course was your entire point of the thread, to insult the devs).

 

I still can't believe that 6 months in there are STILL people on the forums that pay 15/month to bash the game. If you hate it so much. . .GO AWAY. No one is forcing you to stay. And if you're gonna be one of those 'but i paid for a 6 month sub, and im just waiting for it to run out' it really shows the priorities in your life are ALLLLL out of whack if you still have time to complain on a forum for a game that you dont like and/or play anymore.

 

Sounds like you're just frustrated with the population(or lack of one) on your server. . .and you're the type that utterly refuses to roll on a more healthy one.

 

Pro tip - rerolling on a healthy server when the game is only 6 months old isn't going to make or break anyone. It will only make your gameplay experience that much better. I promise

[ZideZwipe]

My reasons why the game failed (in no particular order):

1. The class story lacked real choices (didn't go through all of them but the stories I did see lacked any meaningful choice)

2. Class story on republic side was boring (I wanted to play a Jedi Knight but couldn't stand the story)

3. Lack of exploration (some of the planets like Coruscant or Nar Shadaa are just hallways)

4. The planets are very static with no weather, no day/night cycles, and the mobs just stand there waiting to die

5.The music is good, for the small amount of time it plays, but on every planet I have to listen to the sound of my speeder for just about the whole time I am there.

6. OPs are easy, when you don't hit bugs, and gear from them is way too easy to get

7. I can't level alts, after leveling a character on each faction, without having to replay the same story in the same order. Yes there are class quests, but they are far and few between.

8. PVP is gear based without it you get slaughtered. Didn't mind 1-49, though it got tedious playing the same warzones again and again. It is also unbalanced, not that I expected it to be as it is a difficult thing to do.

9. World PVP happened to me exactly once while leveling.

10. cant swim all the water features are shallow

11. No x-server LFG

12. Extreme population problems and lack of action to correct it

13. The game runs terribly and graphics aren't that good

14. Combat is not very fluid and there are ability delays

15. The game copies heavily from WoW

16. No same gender romance options

17. Lack of in game combat logs

18. Lack of addons. Some people hate them but for people with disabilities it can be very beneficial and allow them a much better gameplay experience. I'm not disabled I just saw a post about this and it made me realize how it could allow much better access to the game and content for some people.

19. No alien species, I mean seriously they are all pretty much recolored humans. Would have liked to see Togruta, Cathar, or Trandoshans as playable.

20. Character customization is seriously lacking; a lot of clones.

21. No way of character customization changes after creation; ie changing hairstyles or adding scars.

22. Nothing to in end-game that is non-combat like pazaak, swoop racing, or pod racing

23. No chat bubbles

24. Can't sit in chairs

25. Space Combat is unintuitive and on rails

26.Crafting is almost useless and is going to be even worse in next patch

27. Lack of intuitive guild features

28. The amount of bugs and the time it is taking to fix them

29. Gear design was terrible (I liked the gear I got in the beginning better then tier gear)

30. Can't have my companions in my legacy tree; this is a very bad oversight.

31. Social points were a good idea but they are poorly implemented.

32. No reputation grinds; it adds to re-playability and can give cool non-combat rewards

33. Can't customize my ship

34. Too many loading screens

35.The fleet was poorly done all the vendors on the fleet should be on Dromund Kaas and Coruscant. Also the Republic fleet looks terrible.

36. The GTN

37.No non-combat macros

38. Customer service; they had closed many of my tickets without resolving them. Also the Hoth incident accusing player of being liars and fraudulent.

 

Knocked it out of the park. I've yet to see such a comprehensive list on so many swings and misses by Bioware.

[FourTwent]

Yep... too much time running around shouting, "We're fully voiced!" and "We've got story!" and not enough time making a game that was actually fun or challenging. Agree 100%

 

If you REALLY think that Bioware couldn't keep the raids 'over-tuned' in order to challenge the hardcore raiders. You're sadly mistaken. I mean come on, all it would take would be to increase HP pools of the bosses/mobs and that requires you to optimize your rotations to the fullest(and you know, actually not stand in the fire).

 

Bioware isn't looking to challenge the hardcore raiders. At least not at launch. Imagine how much of a failure they'd be if the content was too hard for anyone but the top 1% to complete. Then they would have spent all that money and time into a game where no one could complete content.

 

The casual players(which still find the content challenging btw) bring in WAY more money than the hardcore players.

[Celebrus]

If you REALLY think that Bioware couldn't keep the raids 'over-tuned' in order to challenge the hardcore raiders. You're sadly mistaken. I mean come on, all it would take would be to increase HP pools of the bosses/mobs and that requires you to optimize your rotations to the fullest(and you know, actually not stand in the fire).

 

Bioware isn't looking to challenge the hardcore raiders. At least not at launch. Imagine how much of a failure they'd be if the content was too hard for anyone but the top 1% to complete. Then they would have spent all that money and time into a game where no one could complete content.

 

The casual players(which still find the content challenging btw) bring in WAY more money than the hardcore players.

 

 

A casual player picks up the game, play for a few months, and then quits for a year and comes back at a later time.

 

A hardcore player tends to stick with the game for years at a time, keeping a continuous account active and actively playing the game regularly.

 

I know the difference, I was what I would define as "hardcore" during my 6 year stay on wow, and I watched the casuals come and go for years, raids being made up of different players despite sticking with the same guild for years, and trust me, it's not the casuals that truly support or keep a game alive.

 

Casuals come and go, they're going to play whether you specifically trim your game for them or not, but they're always going to move on to something else in very little time, it doesn't matter how much you bend over backwards for them, they aren't staying for long, so really, expending so much effort to appeal to the casuals has been a waste of time, and one of the things that has really crippled the game so much.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Celebrus

[Socialist]

TOR perhaps won't last a full year.

[SpyderBite]

I love Armchair Analysts.. they're almost as fun to watch as Armchair Developers and Armchair Attorneys.

[FourTwent]

Lol, all the people that could afford $60+ for a game suddenly decided $15 a month was too much? Plenty of other subscription games didn't lose 25% of their player base. While I have no doubt there may be a few cases where this did happen I highly doubt it is the reason for the majority of the player loss.

*EDIT: I also never said it was going to fail just made valid points of where the game is lacking. Stop trying to troll anyone who isn't blindly in love with this game.

 

I'd say WoW lost about 25%(give or take) subs overall during the recession. The only thing that would have kept their sub loss from going down even further was their tie in with Diablo 3 and the annual pass.

 

oo wait, lemme imitate you. . .

 

lol at you who thinks that no MMO loses more than 25% of their subscriber base 3 months after release. there's a reason why swtor is said to have the BEST retention rate after launch than any other MMO to date.

[FourTwent]

A casual player picks up the game, play for a few months, and then quits for a year and comes back at a later time.

 

A hardcore player tends to stick with the game for years at a time, keeping a continuous account active and actively playing the game regularly.

 

I know the difference, I was what I would define as "hardcore" during my 6 year stay on wow, and I watched the casuals come and go for years, raids being made up of different players despite sticking with the same guild for years, and trust me, it's not the casuals that truly support or keep a game alive.

 

Casuals come and go, they're going to play whether you specifically trim your game for them or not, but they're always going to move on to something else in very little time, it doesn't matter how much you bend over backwards for them, they aren't staying for long, so really, expending so much effort to appeal to the casuals has been a waste of time, and one of the things that has really crippled the game so much.

 

So? There's soooooooo many more casual players playing the game. Even if half decide to take 6 months off at a time, that's still gonna bring in WAY more money than the hardcore raiders.

 

And it's the casuals that also use less server processes while they're on(not hammering a boss fail after fail after fail for hours on end). So again, more money to be made off the casuals.

 

Come on dude, think about it. You dont see games like WoW and Angry Birds and Farmville strive because of the hardcore fanbase. It's the casuals that bring it into the 'mainstream' and give it the success that they have. Seriously think about it.

 

If it were the hardcore games that really made the money, then game developers wouldn't keep making these casual games. You wouldn't see game developers making content so easy to complete.

 

I understand it's hard to think open-minded about it, you see it from your perspective only and that's about it. But games wouldn't be evolving into what they are today if gamers weren't voting with their wallets. There's a reason why people say WoW is for 'causal MMO players' and that it 'does everything for you'.

[LordSkyKnight]

Yes the reason why the populations are low is because they added to many servers because so many people were crying about waiting to log into a server and play.

 

If you want to see a game that has some seriously unhappy players go read the D3 forums.

 

No the reason the population is low is because people don't like the game and have quit.

 

I find it rather funny people keep using the number of servers at launch as an excuse. Now just slow down and think about this a moment. With the number of people that were playing at launch and most of the servers that they had up and running had queues to get in, what do you would have happen if a lot more of those people who paid for the game could not log in and play at all?

 

They should have expected this to happen and should have already had a plan in place to consolidate the servers over time oh and stop using the community bullcrap as an excuse as to not merge servers.

 

 

So many people were crying about waiting to log into a server and play.......really do you people just stop a minute to listen to yourselves. Who the heck likes to buy a game and bring it home not able to play it?

[LordSkyKnight]

Oh and they will never ever tell us the current accurate number of subscriptions. They are sure fast to post record breaking numbers and try to inflate things, thats what companies do, but when things start looking bad or take a turn for the worse, they wont tell you that.

 

At the end of March they stated in the EA quarterly report they were sitting at what 1.1 million active subs? Bioware never stated any numbers at all. You can also bet your butt they tried to inflate those numbers as much as they could. Free trials, free months, whatever. The 3 month subs ended in April, the 6 month subs will end in Aug with the free month slapped into it. Then you have the people who buy subs one month at a time as well. Who really knows where we stand at with subs at this point besides Bioware but what we do know is the servers are becoming ghost towns fast.

[Deewe]

Omg! Are you looking for the perfect mmo?! Good luck finding that.

Not really IMHO he nailed most of the game issues.

 

Ok a few are off like same gender romance, but hey it's a BioWare game, their customers do expect that.

 

 

But in a very specific order, without pointing at the top one being server population and faction balance issue:

1. No PvE end content / incentives: nothing interesting to do at 50
   
2. No world PvP at all and PvP solely based on gear
   
3. Suboptimal graphic engine
   

 

Then once all the above will be worked upon we can speak about things like poor character customization down to the world that feels like a graveyard.

 

My 2c.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Deewe

[lunarminx]

Yes the reason why the populations are low is because they added to many servers because so many people were crying about waiting to log into a server and play.

 

If you want to see a game that has some seriously unhappy players go read the D3 forums.

 

It doesn't need to be D3, it's any game forum.

[USMCjv]

I'd say WoW lost about 25%(give or take) subs overall during the recession. The only thing that would have kept their sub loss from going down even further was their tie in with Diablo 3 and the annual pass.

 

oo wait, lemme imitate you. . .

 

lol at you who thinks that no MMO loses more than 25% of their subscriber base 3 months after release. there's a reason why swtor is said to have the BEST retention rate after launch than any other MMO to date.

WoW went from 12 million subs in WoTLK to 10.3 million that is not 25% of their subscription base; not to mention this is in a game that is 7 years old. http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/09/world-of-warcraft-subscriber-numbers/

To the first bolded statement; while MMO's do lose some of their subscriber base, a 25% loss is not good. This graph was done before the 1.3 million was announced and shows that those MMO's (having a peak active subscriber number greater than 1 million) don't lose such a huge percentage of their customers right after launch. http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png As to your second statement, who says this? Do you have an actual source for this information?

EDIT: also TOR pads it's numbers just like WoW it's called business that is what they do. They gave everyone a free month which will extend the 6 month subs to pad the next quarterly report as well.

Edited June 3, 2012 by USMCjv