How did it come to this?

[Plumz]

I think at this point all of us SW (and SWTOR) fans just simply have to acknowledge the fact that the game is going to sink unless a major overhaul is done. Unfortunately, with the BW record on how fast things are done this is not going to happen soon. If it does at all.

 

Lots of us have issues with the game, some are raised repeatedly on forums similar (or identical) others vary to a different degree. But I think all those issues are not the major reason why the game is tanking hard. The major reason is in the idea of the game devs of what a MMO is.

 

It's true, BW is not responsible to build communities, but it is their responsibility to support such in various ways. Without communities there is no mmo, there is nothing that will keep people logging back everyday and play. Good, or bad with their good/bad characters they are the key element of any game pretending to be a mmo. SWTOR doesn't only have any, it lacks important tools to create one. And it is not a mistake. It is a design as intended.

 

All the changes proposed by so many on these forums (some back during beta testing) could save the game. I am not talking about LFG tool or character transfers. Changes that would shift this game into a real mmo. Unfortunately, those things were already discussed way in beta and the Devs chose their vision of mmo instead. The worst part is, at this point BW is trying to patch holes in a leaking hull, but still hangs into their “own” vision of the greatest, innovating mmo they intended this game to be.

 

Any of you also get the feeling that just as we, players are pissed off by the Devs narrow (or lack of) vision, they seem to be also really frustrated with us? They had the greatest vision and innovation and story line etc.. and we, the players, pissed on everything their brilliance produced, with some ridiculous demands...

 

I followed the game development for over a year. Read forums with curiosity and anticipation of what will the experience of playing it be. There were red flags raised by beta testers more and more of them as the time of launch was approaching. Devs chose their own path, chose to ignore some obvious and valid points made by people who've been playing mmos for over a decade. Results we can all see right now.

 

Is the game going to die? Sure not. There will be enough interests for some time to keep it alive. But, those of you who keep saying “Let the whiners go, we don't care about the numbers, let those who enjoy the game stay and play..” - clearly don't realize the power of subscription numbers. It represent cash that a part of is put into future game development. I am not in designing and managing a mmo at all, but my common sense tells me there is a different power of “purchasing” future game development between 1ml and 500k subscribers. From my little understanding of business mechanics the 500k subs will give much less that 50% of purchasing power than of what 1ml subs does because of budget allocations. Simply put, your game experience is not going to improve much with dwindling subscription base.

 

A lot of us are really angry and upset. Not because we hate the game. We love the game and we wanted it so much to succeed. The frustration is on part because lots of us clearly see why the game is falling, yet the Devs are stubbornly hanging on their vision of what they want us to do. Sure, some people do create alts and play them over and over, but they do it because they play in a community interacting with friends/enemies. Guess, devs don't get that either...

 

I am going to run my sub and not renew it. Not because the game is beyond saving. Because the devs at BW are refusing to abandon “their” visions and adapt and restructure the game to truly become a MMO with a community that interacts with love/hate and everything between. I think most veterans mmo players will agree. For last decade (or even longer) we played much worst designed games with more bugs/glitches and even less functionality that this “beta SWTOR” offers. You don't play mmo because of it's vibrant storyline, graphics, or functionality. You keep coming into the game because of people you meet/group/love/hate that are in it.

 

How many subs do you need to lose before you get it BW? If ever...

[Redundant]

You say the game needs a huge overhaul, yet you do not offer suggestions or ideas as to what needs to change.

 

A Major overhaul?

 

Of course the game doesn't need it. The game itself is solid. Bioware made a mistake by opening to many servers and they are paying for it. They are working as fast as they can to solve that problem but things take time. (Imo too long) However, whats done is done and can't be changed. All that Bioware can do is look forward and learn from their mistakes. They certainly don't need thread, after thread saying the same thing over and over again.

 

Trust me. Bioware hears you and understand what the community are asking for but it takes time.

[kilosoldier]

I think at this point all of us SW (and SWTOR) fans just simply have to acknowledge the fact that the game is going to sink unless a major overhaul is done. Unfortunately, with the BW record on how fast things are done this is not going to happen soon. If it does at all.

 

Lots of us have issues with the game, some are raised repeatedly on forums similar (or identical) others vary to a different degree. But I think all those issues are not the major reason why the game is tanking hard. The major reason is in the idea of the game devs of what a MMO is.

 

It's true, BW is not responsible to build communities, but it is their responsibility to support such in various ways. Without communities there is no mmo, there is nothing that will keep people logging back everyday and play. Good, or bad with their good/bad characters they are the key element of any game pretending to be a mmo. SWTOR doesn't only have any, it lacks important tools to create one. And it is not a mistake. It is a design as intended.

 

All the changes proposed by so many on these forums (some back during beta testing) could save the game. I am not talking about LFG tool or character transfers. Changes that would shift this game into a real mmo. Unfortunately, those things were already discussed way in beta and the Devs chose their vision of mmo instead. The worst part is, at this point BW is trying to patch holes in a leaking hull, but still hangs into their “own” vision of the greatest, innovating mmo they intended this game to be.

 

Any of you also get the feeling that just as we, players are pissed off by the Devs narrow (or lack of) vision, they seem to be also really frustrated with us? They had the greatest vision and innovation and story line etc.. and we, the players, pissed on everything their brilliance produced, with some ridiculous demands...

 

I followed the game development for over a year. Read forums with curiosity and anticipation of what will the experience of playing it be. There were red flags raised by beta testers more and more of them as the time of launch was approaching. Devs chose their own path, chose to ignore some obvious and valid points made by people who've been playing mmos for over a decade. Results we can all see right now.

 

Is the game going to die? Sure not. There will be enough interests for some time to keep it alive. But, those of you who keep saying “Let the whiners go, we don't care about the numbers, let those who enjoy the game stay and play..” - clearly don't realize the power of subscription numbers. It represent cash that a part of is put into future game development. I am not in designing and managing a mmo at all, but my common sense tells me there is a different power of “purchasing” future game development between 1ml and 500k subscribers. From my little understanding of business mechanics the 500k subs will give much less that 50% of purchasing power than of what 1ml subs does because of budget allocations. Simply put, your game experience is not going to improve much with dwindling subscription base.

 

A lot of us are really angry and upset. Not because we hate the game. We love the game and we wanted it so much to succeed. The frustration is on part because lots of us clearly see why the game is falling, yet the Devs are stubbornly hanging on their vision of what they want us to do. Sure, some people do create alts and play them over and over, but they do it because they play in a community interacting with friends/enemies. Guess, devs don't get that either...

 

I am going to run my sub and not renew it. Not because the game is beyond saving. Because the devs at BW are refusing to abandon “their” visions and adapt and restructure the game to truly become a MMO with a community that interacts with love/hate and everything between. I think most veterans mmo players will agree. For last decade (or even longer) we played much worst designed games with more bugs/glitches and even less functionality that this “beta SWTOR” offers. You don't play mmo because of it's vibrant storyline, graphics, or functionality. You keep coming into the game because of people you meet/group/love/hate that are in it.

 

How many subs do you need to lose before you get it BW? If ever...

 

I think its very hard for Bioware to do two things.

 

One is to ADMIT they messed up and really try an implement some core design changes and direction. Game developers often fall into thr trap of thinking they "know more" about what gamers want than gamers do. Its a rock star like mentality at times.

 

I believe the second issue is that once this much money is invested down a certain design path there is none to alter course if things dont go the right way.

 

I love the voice over. Loved it. I would gladly trade all that away except for the class stories to have more meaningful MMO staples fully developed and implemented.

Edited June 2, 2012 by kilosoldier

[HexHammer]

Too many looks too short when talking about problems of ToR.

 

Been in big buisness mysef, it's usually those who call the shots, like EA. It's EA breathing down BW's neck, setting the budgets for various services, hireing incompetent design leaders, not allowing BW to get experience with quality patching, thus stooping to mere short sighted money mongering.

 

If you don't have the highly skilled and competent people, you can't make a grand MMO.

Sure BW has made highly acclaimed games, but never any overzealous patching like Blizzard, and less anny experience in building communities.

[mathisk]

... Game developers often fall into thr trap of thinking they "know more" about what gamers want than gamers do. Its a rock star like mentality at times. ...

 

That's pretty funny because the exact same thing can be said about a lot of gamers. They think that because they don't like a game or some aspects of a game, they know more about what a developer "should have done" than the developers themselves.

 

The biggest "problem" with SWTOR is it's maturity (how long it's been around). If people would get over their incessant need for instant gratification and let the game have time to mature, most of the problems would fix themselves. But since nearly everyone posting threads like this wants the game to be perfect RIGHT NOW, which can't possibly happen, they decide to say the game is a failure and proclaim that they are abandoning the sinking ship before it's too late.

 

The best thing that Bioware can do is to take their time and fix things right even if it takes too long for all the folks who need instant gratification. Odds are that those folks won't get their gratification from the other games they're looking forward to, either. And by that time, maybe SWTOR will have evolved into something that can keep them busy for a couple more months, until their need for something new and exciting kicks in and makes them leave again.

[HexHammer]

The biggest "problem" with SWTOR is it's maturity (how long it's been around). If people would get over their incessant need for instant gratification and let the game have time to mature, most of the problems would fix themselves. But since nearly everyone posting threads like this wants the game to be perfect RIGHT NOW, which can't possibly happen, they decide to say the game is a failure and proclaim that they are abandoning the sinking ship before it's too late.

Strange, EA should have ample experience with such kind of people, now they have plenty of MMO experience.

[Redundant]

That's pretty funny because the exact same thing can be said about a lot of gamers. They think that because they don't like a game or some aspects of a game, they know more about what a developer "should have done" than the developers themselves.

 

The biggest "problem" with SWTOR is it's maturity (how long it's been around). If people would get over their incessant need for instant gratification and let the game have time to mature, most of the problems would fix themselves. But since nearly everyone posting threads like this wants the game to be perfect RIGHT NOW, which can't possibly happen, they decide to say the game is a failure and proclaim that they are abandoning the sinking ship before it's too late.

 

The best thing that Bioware can do is to take their time and fix things right even if it takes too long for all the folks who need instant gratification. Odds are that those folks won't get their gratification from the other games they're looking forward to, either. And by that time, maybe SWTOR will have evolved into something that can keep them busy for a couple more months, until their need for something new and exciting kicks in and makes them leave again.

 

This and THIS again. People seem to think that World of Warcraft instantly got 12 million subscribers. They seem to forget all those years of development and effort Blizz put into it. Then again at that time the MMO community was a very different place. Its either all now or nothing.

[belizar]

You say the game needs a huge overhaul, yet you do not offer suggestions or ideas as to what needs to change.

 

A Major overhaul?

 

Of course the game doesn't need it. The game itself is solid. Bioware made a mistake by opening to many servers and they are paying for it. They are working as fast as they can to solve that problem but things take time. (Imo too long) However, whats done is done and can't be changed. All that Bioware can do is look forward and learn from their mistakes. They certainly don't need thread, after thread saying the same thing over and over again.

 

Trust me. Bioware hears you and understand what the community are asking for but it takes time.

 

1-3min load times on a ssd every time i want to go to a ship >docking station>planet thats just a time sink lol game is far from soild still have fps issues sluggish combat dont help either < they will nvr fix this as they seem to think its fine now.

 

to get to your ship shouldnt be instanced for a start have the ships them selfs instanced so no load screens just to see it get rid of docking stations and let us land on the dam planet just think how that would be in the movie <lord sidious ... lord vador i demand u come back to the death star... just stop by your ship wait 3 mins then a docking station just to make sure your ok wait 3mins then get here asap !

[kilosoldier]

That's pretty funny because the exact same thing can be said about a lot of gamers. They think that because they don't like a game or some aspects of a game, they know more about what a developer "should have done" than the developers themselves..

 

No doubt about it. I agree.

 

However....

 

 

When you hit critical mass inside the playerbase what I said tends to be the more reasonable view.

[Redundant]

1-3min load times on a ssd every time i want to go to a ship >docking station>planet thats just a time sink lol game is far from soild still have fps issues sluggish combat dont help either < they will nvr fix this as they seem to think its fine now.

 

to get to your ship shouldnt be instanced for a start have the ships them selfs instanced so no load screens just to see it get rid of docking stations and let us land on the dam planet just think how that would be in the movie <lord sidious ... lord vador i demand u come back to the death star... just stop by your ship wait 3 mins then a docking station just to make sure your ok wait 3mins then get here asap !

 

I dunno about you mate but it doesn't take me three minutes to get into my ship. Now I'm not going to say that the game isn't optimised. Not by a long shot. The loading times are really still far too long and they have a lot of work to do on the engine to help with that problem. But just because its not perfect first time doesn't mean you rip out the entire engine and start again. Dear god if we did that nothing would get done.

[belizar]

I dunno about you mate but it doesn't take me three minutes to get into my ship. Now I'm not going to say that the game isn't optimised. Not by a long shot. The loading times are really still far too long and they have a lot of work to do on the engine to help with that problem. But just because its not perfect first time doesn't mean you rip out the entire engine and start again. Dear god if we did that nothing would get done.

 

they should of picked or used the engine better in the 1st place remember once a mmo seems dead no flocks to it anymore WaR springs to mind, and as a game dev tho not these days with patchs on day releases the games should be almost perfect mechanic wise if nothing else u cant expect a game with shoddy fps to keep ppl around.

[NDiggy]

You say the game needs a huge overhaul, yet you do not offer suggestions or ideas as to what needs to change.

 

A Major overhaul?

 

Of course the game doesn't need it. The game itself is solid. Bioware made a mistake by opening to many servers and they are paying for it. They are working as fast as they can to solve that problem but things take time. (Imo too long) However, whats done is done and can't be changed. All that Bioware can do is look forward and learn from their mistakes. They certainly don't need thread, after thread saying the same thing over and over again.

 

Trust me. Bioware hears you and understand what the community are asking for but it takes time.

 

If it was just an issue of there being too many servers I don't think people would be leaving in droves. Server transfers will help, but ultimately this game has too many flaws to survive as anything more than a F2P game with a handful of servers.

[DiabloDoom]

Unfortunately, with the BW record on how fast things are done this is not going to happen soon. If it does at all.

 

Point me to this record. As far as I'm aware, BW have moved pretty fast regarding bugs, updates, fixes, content etc.There's been 1.2gig+ added since retail launch.

[belizar]

Point me to this record. As far as I'm aware, BW have moved pretty fast regarding bugs, updates, fixes, content etc.There's been 1.2gig+ added since retail launch.

 

wasnt soa bugged after the fix soa patch 1

wasnt soa bugged after the fix soa patch 2

i think 3rd time was the charm for him.... 3 patchs seems alot your right same bug fix o dear

[Lokai]

You say the game needs a huge overhaul, yet you do not offer suggestions or ideas as to what needs to change.

 

A Major overhaul?

 

Of course the game doesn't need it. The game itself is solid. Bioware made a mistake by opening to many servers and they are paying for it. They are working as fast as they can to solve that problem but things take time. (Imo too long) However, whats done is done and can't be changed. All that Bioware can do is look forward and learn from their mistakes. They certainly don't need thread, after thread saying the same thing over and over again.

 

Trust me. Bioware hears you and understand what the community are asking for but it takes time.

 

i dunno i kind of disagree to this...the major issue was there choice in using an overused system and design, and the fact they chose the hero engine which is really not great for mmos. They made some bad choices BUT it is there first mmo heck bioware seems to hate online play in general sure nwn had it but most of there more current stuff is actually single player with either no multi-player or its tacked on after the fact.

 

My issues with TOR are...

 

Dull Combat we have done in WoW for 7 years...

 

Gear grind is just that a grind it isn't fun nor enjoyable in anyway...

 

Lack of unique species for a starwars game this is pretty big...

 

Crafting ends up being kinda useless...

 

Is no real choice in game...all end the same way regardless of choices...

 

Still balancing issues in leveling game, especially on voss

 

Gear looks terrible and not very starwarsy...

 

Classes being locked per faction this is one of my biggest gripes... where is my imperial trooper? only the jedi/sith should have been locked.

 

SI story being about artifacts rather then manipulation, and sith hierarchy...

 

Could go on and on and while some of it is kind of minor is one issue that basically killed TOR for me and that is the combat. I cant get into the combat...as much as i enjoyed the story and don't get me wrong it was fairly awesome! what was left after that was just so boring... =\ probably return when they do an expansion just for the story aside from that the game was just to bland for me... they did nothing to innovate in combat... and tried to play it to safe.

 

If want to fix TOR first step would be to look at tera and DCUO combat and make something similar to one of those two games. Both have fun and enjoyable combat, that isn't yawning while i click 1111122211131131113 over and over and over again...

 

Edit: btw DON'T take this as a whine post to much, it kind of sounds it BUT really TOR is a solid game i dont see it failing ever... but for me PERSONALLY the game just feels like it was made 5 or 6 years ago... it feels so dated and old.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Lokai

[DiabloDoom]

wasnt soa bugged after the fix soa patch 1

wasnt soa bugged after the fix soa patch 2

i think 3rd time was the charm for him.... 3 patchs seems alot your right same bug fix o dear

 

Make a point, Mr. game developer.

[NDiggy]

Point me to this record. As far as I'm aware, BW have moved pretty fast regarding bugs, updates, fixes, content etc.There's been 1.2gig+ added since retail launch.

 

And yet SOA still has many bugs that will wipe an OP, EC still has many OP wiping bugs. They've never been very quick to react, and when they do get around to patching they break something else. They were slow to fix Ilum, and they refused to roll back valor and PvP (whats left of it) is still suffering from that to this day. 4 months to get 1.2, another 3+ months to get 1.3 after they announced they'd be doing monthly content updates. BW is slow. Balance changes should happen monthly at the very least, even if they can't do content monthly.

[OldGroo]

They took a risk, and now it is biting them in the butt.

 

How do you make an MMO that you don't create a want for healers (a diversity of classes anyway) EARLY, and really never want them except for flashpoints/operations. This isn't MMO friendly.

 

How do you create an MMO that has long pauses in the action (the cutscenes for quests) and expect multiple people to sit through them for others who haven't seen? (you have seen LFM - must SPACEBAR) - This isn't MMO friendly.

 

How do you create a desire to play your character, when SO many diversions are thrust in your face to level alternate characters? (legacy system) Alternate characters I always thought hurt MMO's in general, creating a want to do this so early in release when it is so easy to level... makes my head hurt.

 

How do you make a PvP game in which you simply 'trust' it will balance out? - This isn't PvP friendly.

 

How do you make a PvP game in which you can play both sides on the same server? - I was in beta for 6 months prior to release, I was surprised during beta that you could make toons on both sides, NEVER expected it to be like that in release.

 

And (last one)...

How do you release a game with the clunky UI we had (and while much improved, still isn't there yet) - First impressions are the most important, I can only imagine what they were thinking.

 

 

 

I haven't cancelled yet, but I went to...figured next billing in august, may as well wait until time closer... but BOY I wonder how many like me just haven't done yet from the 6month plan. Active subscribers is one thing, inactive accounts (not yet unsubscribed) is another.

 

What can be done?

 

 

This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

[Dext]

1-3min load times on a ssd every time i want to go to a ship >docking station>planet thats just a time sink lol game is far from soild still have fps issues sluggish combat dont help either < they will nvr fix this as they seem to think its fine now.

 

to get to your ship shouldnt be instanced for a start have the ships them selfs instanced so no load screens just to see it get rid of docking stations and let us land on the dam planet just think how that would be in the movie <lord sidious ... lord vador i demand u come back to the death star... just stop by your ship wait 3 mins then a docking station just to make sure your ok wait 3mins then get here asap !

 

WoW. I load into my ship in about 4 sic's.

[DiabloDoom]

And yet SOA still has many bugs that will wipe an OP, EC still has many OP wiping bugs. They've never been very quick to react, and when they do get around to patching they break something else. They were slow to fix Ilum, and they refused to roll back valor and PvP (whats left of it) is still suffering from that to this day. 4 months to get 1.2, another 3+ months to get 1.3 after they announced they'd be doing monthly content updates. BW is slow. Balance changes should happen monthly at the very least, even if they can't do content monthly.

 

Just because they've bee unsuccessful a few times doesn't mean they've not been quick to react to the problem

[hulkweazel]

That's pretty funny because the exact same thing can be said about a lot of gamers. They think that because they don't like a game or some aspects of a game, they know more about what a developer "should have done" than the developers themselves.

 

The biggest "problem" with SWTOR is it's maturity (how long it's been around). If people would get over their incessant need for instant gratification and let the game have time to mature, most of the problems would fix themselves. But since nearly everyone posting threads like this wants the game to be perfect RIGHT NOW, which can't possibly happen, they decide to say the game is a failure and proclaim that they are abandoning the sinking ship before it's too late.

 

The best thing that Bioware can do is to take their time and fix things right even if it takes too long for all the folks who need instant gratification. Odds are that those folks won't get their gratification from the other games they're looking forward to, either. And by that time, maybe SWTOR will have evolved into something that can keep them busy for a couple more months, until their need for something new and exciting kicks in and makes them leave again.

No, the biggest problem is that people like you think that it's the consumer's fault for why the game isn't successful. This is the reason BW is so slow to making changes, and this is why people who are still paying the monthly sub are so bitter about players leaving.

 

It's a shame that the OP took that much time to make one point because that one point is being largely ignored.

 

That point is that TOR does not feel like an MMO. This is a problem that no amount of time will fix unless the Devs completely change direction, which with their arrogant attitude, will not happen. They foolishly believe that transfers and LFG tools will fix their single player MMO.

[Plumz]

Point me to this record. As far as I'm aware, BW have moved pretty fast regarding bugs, updates, fixes, content etc.There's been 1.2gig+ added since retail launch.

 

Added what? Custom UI? Bug fixes? Legacy fluff that nobody cares about? We've been for 6 moths and are still paying for beta. And that's now what it was offered to us in the adds...

 

Ask any long term SWG or even 5+ years wow players why did they play for so long? Gear? Fluff? Functionality? They all came here and soon realized this game dosn't have it. And sad part it's not going to have it with next patch or (most likely) even next xpac. It is the design of it, missing important component of what makes mmo. And no patch will change that. Not even server transfers will, you sure will get to play with people, but well you will see yourself soon enough what I mean. No worry.

[Darth-Malice]

All I can think of when I saw the title as

Still pretty valid with the community and bioware's stance on things. Edited June 2, 2012 by Darth-Malice

[belizar]

Just because they've bee unsuccessful a few times doesn't mean they've not been quick to react to the problem

 

shows they are incompetent and should stick to solo... wait a min i mean console games

 

would u put up with a service in any walk of life that they "unsuccessful a few times but they get there" i dont think u would

[DiabloDoom]

shows they are incompetent and should stick to solo... wait a min i mean console games

 

would u put up with a service in any walk of life that they "unsuccessful a few times but they get there" i dont think u would

 

Yeah I know what you are saying, it's inconceivable to think, I mean this world is so perfect after all.