Reputation: What's really hurting SWTOR

[Darth_Victus]

The main problem is, is that many people (not all) are lemmings.

 

They have no opinion of their own and go with the crowd. Now, some in this particular crowd do have valid reasons of why they dont like the game or have had bad experiences. However, from what I have observed most in this crowd hate on the game not because of its flaws, but because it is not SWG 2, or because they wanted their version of the perfect game in place.

 

I have a friend who was a classic example of this. Every time we talked he would always bash TOR because he knows I play it. So I asked him why he didnt like the game, his reponse. Everyone says its horrible. I asked him if he even tried it. Of course, he did not. So I gave him a 7 day trial. He loves the game now.

 

Alot of people like to compare TOR which is only 7 months old, to WoW which is going on 8 years old. Many don't remember or simply don't want to acknowledge that when WoW was this young it was on the verge of bombing hard with around 500k subs because players were leaving because it was so filled with bugs, glitches, and other issues.

 

Now alot of people will argue that that happened 7 or more years ago and it should be perfected by now. It's still the same process and anyone who has ever had to write a script for any kind of game can tell you it is a pain to do. You mess up one letter or one space in a line of code, you screw up everything. Then you have to go back line by line to see where you made the mistake.

 

Many forget that their preferred MMO did not launch with the same features they are demanding that TOR should of launched with. Given yes, some should have been in at launch such as macros; but frankly that is something small.

 

So as I said, most (not all) people are lemmings. It's popular to hate TOR so they jump on the band wagon so they dont get left out of what is popular.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Darth_Victus

[maxetius]

This game sucks and you are BLIND if you don't see it.

 

I'm only here until my 10 year subscription runs out.

[trussasp]

Hi OP:

 

While the reputation is negative at this point, the real thing hurting SWTOR is it is only fun for a limited time period.

 

For many people, that period is measured in months, maybe one, two or three months.

 

Maybe (for some of us..) six months.

 

 

But come on, you still having as much fun NOW as when you started SWTOR?

 

 

These games are a fun distraction. When they become less fun, people leave.

[metalgearyoda]

 

But come on, you still having as much fun NOW as when you started SWTOR?

 

I rerolled on fatman about a month ago and all my friends came back to the game recently to join me.

 

So I am having more fun then when I started.

 

(mainly because the game is significantly more polished since launch. Thanks 1.2.)

Edited June 2, 2012 by metalgearyoda

[siegedeluxe]

You know what's hurting SWTOR? Continuity.

[HexHammer]

 

Blur, I have to ask: If you've quit the game, why are you on the forums? This is a little like breaking up with a girl & stalking her.

He's just a customer expressing his views, which is his good right, please don't question his right to do so.

[Aerevan]

Reputation is one thing, but the lack of a clear vision where BioWare wants to go is really striking. They wanted WoW numbers with a game that caters to a far smaller fanbase. The leveling feels awful, the combat boring, slow and tedious while at the same time gold mobs of the same level can easily kill you. That kind of stuff is, in my opinion, to be reserved for FP's. The game feels disconnected and not streamlined. They really need to work on that; I like the challenge, but I feel that if you want to attract WoW numbers you should offer a leveling experience that's far more entertaining (faster kills, less xp per kill); they've got more than enough content to do that without forcing grinds (unlike... Aion, lulz).

 

You have to understand that, even in WoW, a great many players never came further than a level 20 something char; lack of direction. Judging by the number of level 20-somethings now inactive in the dead guild I'm in, I'd say SWTOR suffers the same problem. Such people will very likely never come back. It's a shame really, they knew very well that this was a problem in development; there's this famous quote by Ohlen about twenty people bashing in a mobs skull for a couple of minutes wasn't heroic. Yet that's all this game offers when it comes to gameplay. Go figure.

 

What BioWare did was offer a gameplay wise (and tbh, voiced npc's telling you to kill 10 Teldrassil Pigs comes down to the same thing as reading a quest telling you to do so) boring leveling experience, that was way too fast while the endgame was meant for casuals. GG.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Aerevan

[banecolton]

No because every positive post gets closed while hate threads by the same fifteen or twenty trolls are allowed to be opened for weeks. It's up to the community manager to stop providing the stage and rocks for those that hate BioWare no matter what, the last one refused to do it...and the new one isn't doing too much in that regard either.

 

Interesting theory, let’s look a little closer for a moment shall we?

 

I was just reading a thread titled “What isn’t the community’s fault” where the OP was asking what thing or things out a list he gave were in fact not the community’s fault. I believe the list was a compilation of things he had seen in various threads that people had blamed on the community. After three pages the thread was closed with a note telling people that the subject was already being discussed here in this thread. Having read this thread I have not seen any mention of that discussion (till now by me anyways).

 

So does this incident fit with your theory that “…every positive post gets closed while hate threads by the same fifteen or twenty trolls are allowed to be opened for weeks”?

[HexHammer]

Darth_Victus it seems that you define everybody out of your 1 example of your friend.

 

I would say it's very unreasonable as Ive seen nothing but valid reasons why the shortcomings of the game has caused people to unsub, never seen anybody unsub just because other has unsubbed, or mindlessly repeated what other has said.

 

What really hurts ToR is the wrong priorities of BW.

- no macros

- Ops had same gear on nightmare as hard mod at release, only changed too late.

- LFG tool comes too late

- custom UI comes too late

- server merges comes too late

- free transfer comes too late

- overzealous nerfig of Sorcs, forcig people to reroll.

- disasterous bad GTN interface

- ..etc etc..

 

BW always knew how to tell a good story, never knew how to make good game mechanics.

[Svarteryttaren]

Most players that post on the forum of any MMO are players that feel for the game. Most of these players post in frustration venting there idea of how they think the game should evolve to meet there idea of how the game should have been in the first place.

 

So reading the forum tells alot of how the game could attract more players. If a MMO have a population that meets the expectations of the developer these new ideas could easily diminish these population figures as much as increasing them. If a game doesnt have a healthy population the posts on the forum is even more so a sulution to increasing the population figures. After all the players that post are either customers that have just un-subbed or could do so.

 

IBioware thought that they could attract players that generally dont play any MMO's, this can be or could still be true, but the de-crease in population isnt nessesarily (or most likely) comming from players who tried out swtor as there first mmo. Meny of the leavers are or were players that have played meny MMO's.

 

They left becouse swtor isnt (at present) much better then what the just left in the last MMO. To stay in any MMO meny "non-wow MMO hoppers" are just searching after a game that is the best of all mmo's out there put together. Simply a quit inpossible scenario for a just released mmo. Most new MMOs never have time to evolved before population diminishes beyond critical mass. Bw needs to rethink and see what the majority that left was looking for when they baught swtor and put that ingame, to main critical mass and then in due time all those first time roleplayers that never have played a MMO can find there way to SWTOR.

[DarkSaberMaster]

What we're talking about here is bad 'word of mouth' advertising.

 

People come, they play, they talk.

 

It's the same for SWTOR as it is for WOW or any other game. If people like what they experience they tell their friends and acquaintances "You got to try this game!". If they don't they still talk, and say "Hey, I tried this game and it sucked, don't buy it."

 

A game only gets one chance to launch with the features and game play that make people say "You gotta try this game!". If it's not there it's the kiss of death. Most games never recover. The MMO audience is very fickle and unforgiving.

 

SWTOR made a number of mistaken assumptions about MMO game design based on their experience as a single player game company (at which they are very good--but that's not MMO's) and the assumption that if you give people more WOW type experiences they will flock to your game like they flocked to WOW.

 

You can't treat an MMO like a single player game. There's a different dynamic. The fact that there's a very focused story for each class is good--for a single player game--and the voice over is cool and all, but MMO's thrive on community and shared experiences, not solo play. That's lacking in this game. The tools and group experiences are not there for people to bond over their adventures and form relationships. That alone is enough to kill this game in a very short time (for an MMO).

 

MMO's are the descendants of pen and paper RPG's where you get together and play with your friends and that's what makes the experience special. If people want to play a game be immersed in the story and not be bothered playing with other people they will buy a single player game. BW's seeming total lack of understanding of this with regard to the design is hurting this game. They put in guilds but no incentive to group with the exception of raiding at the endgame... so why join a guild? Four player maximum group size doesn't encourage group play or build guilds, and pets (companions) encourage solo play.

 

Since 98% of the content can be done by a two player team, all you need is one friend and you're good to go. Once you're done with the story content you and your friend can move on to the next game.

 

A good game needs socialization tools starting with variable group sizes which allow 6-8 players to get together, and content that encourages people to play together. I'm not saying that all content must be group content. Variety is better than homogenization.

 

As far as WOW type design is concerned... those of us who left WOW were bored or tired of it's game play: specifically grinding for gear and raiding in the end game. If you want that sort of play, you're playing WOW. You can't out-WOW WOW. The mechanics of this game and endgame play are too derivative. You need something different to attract people. So a lot of people came and saw these derivative mechanics. Some said thanks but no thanks, been there and done that and walked away. And those that really liked that sort of thing and Star Wars will defend it to the death even though it's driving off other players.

 

As far as endgame content tons of people hated WOW's endgame. Why would they leave if they liked it? Why would they want to do more of the same here in SWTOR if they hated what was done in WOW? You're not going to pull people away from WOW with an inferior repetitious version of their worst feature. And you're certainly not going to hold people with it.

 

Lastly this game is too static in terms of it's content. The environment never changes, the stories never change, the spawns never change. The maps are always the same. It lacks great replay value.

 

Static is the way many single player games are designed. You play the game---great it was a fun ride--- been there done that you might play it again once. It's like reading a book. Once you finish the story you're done. If you really like the story you might read it again, then put it down and move on to the next book.

 

Good MMO's build in repeatability to their design so people are not doing the exact same thing each time. While it's true that SWTOR has a individual class story lines you still are repeating 80-90% of the original content per planet. If you're going to have static global maps then you need to introduce variables elsewhere--variable spawns, variable mission maps, random spawns, random events, random contacts for missions, etc.

 

So the problem this game has is not bad word of mouth but a problem with game design philosophy.

 

Personally they didn't make the design choices that would have made this game better, but I'm having fun playing for now. Still there's certainly much that could be done, and should have been done earlier in development that could make this game more appealing to more people.

 

Outstanding post and states everything I feel about the game.

[NDiggy]

The reputation was well earned. What happens when you take a developer that has never made an MMO before, give them some developers from two other massive MMO flops (Age of Conan and Warhammer), add in one of the worst publishers in the industry (EA), and ask them to make a brand new MMO? Massive, massive failure is what happens.

[Closetalker]

The main problem is, is that many people (not all) are lemmings.

 

They have no opinion of their own and go with the crowd. Now, some in this particular crowd do have valid reasons of why they dont like the game or have had bad experiences. However, from what I have observed most in this crowd hate on the game not because of its flaws, but because it is not SWG 2, or because they wanted their version of the perfect game in place.

 

I have a friend who was a classic example of this. Every time we talked he would always bash TOR because he knows I play it. So I asked him why he didnt like the game, his reponse. Everyone says its horrible. I asked him if he even tried it. Of course, he did not. So I gave him a 7 day trial. He loves the game now.

 

Alot of people like to compare TOR which is only 7 months old, to WoW which is going on 8 years old. Many don't remember or simply don't want to acknowledge that when WoW was this young it was on the verge of bombing hard with around 500k subs because players were leaving because it was so filled with bugs, glitches, and other issues.

 

Now alot of people will argue that that happened 7 or more years ago and it should be perfected by now. It's still the same process and anyone who has ever had to write a script for any kind of game can tell you it is a pain to do. You mess up one letter or one space in a line of code, you screw up everything. Then you have to go back line by line to see where you made the mistake.

 

Many forget that their preferred MMO did not launch with the same features they are demanding that TOR should of launched with. Given yes, some should have been in at launch such as macros; but frankly that is something small.

 

So as I said, most (not all) people are lemmings. It's popular to hate TOR so they jump on the band wagon so they dont get left out of what is popular.

 

You have a lot of nerve calling critics of this game lemmings while you regurgitate the same old, tired, discredited excuses that have people have been making for this game and Bioware for months now.

 

TOR's poor reputation is a well-earned one, and people aren't going to cut it any slack because its missing features WoW didn't launch with eight bloody years ago, as well they shouldn't.

[kilosoldier]

Did not read thread.

 

 

REPUTATIONS ARE EARNED.

[denpic]

I just dont think they are selling the game hard enough there no ads or media campaign

 

I recruited a few players from diablo 3 and wow simply on the fact that bio ware implemented

Local Servers in the oceanic region now most of these players. Never heared of This game until the topic of

Local severs for wow came up In The conversation and I informed them about swtors servers

Edited June 2, 2012 by denpic

[xandax]

The main problem is, is that many people (not all) are lemmings.

 

They have no opinion of their own and go with the crowd. Now, some in this particular crowd do have valid reasons of why they dont like the game or have had bad experiences. However, from what I have observed most in this crowd hate on the game not because of its flaws, but because it is not SWG 2, or because they wanted their version of the perfect game in place.

<snip>

Doubtful.

Few expected it to be SWG 2.0 because those people got that drummed out of them back in the development phase.

And naturally - people 'want' their version of the perfect game - it's kinda a strange argument to try and use to point out that 'people are lemmings'.

 

<snip>

I have a friend who was a classic example of this. Every time we talked he would always bash TOR because he knows I play it. So I asked him why he didnt like the game, his reponse. Everyone says its horrible. I asked him if he even tried it. Of course, he did not. So I gave him a 7 day trial. He loves the game now.

<snip>

Your friend is not stereotypical of the hundreds of thousands that's already left this game after having tried it.

 

<snip>

Alot of people like to compare TOR which is only 7 months old, to WoW which is going on 8 years old. Many don't remember or simply don't want to acknowledge that when WoW was this young it was on the verge of bombing hard with around 500k subs because players were leaving because it was so filled with bugs, glitches, and other issues.

<snip>

 

In about a year WoW reached 5 million players. It was never on the verge of bombing hard. It grew pretty much explosive right after launch and years into its life cycle. Very atypical of MMOs, but nevertheless - they set the new standard to be meassured by for this type of mainstream triple A MMOs.

 

 

<snip>

Now alot of people will argue that that happened 7 or more years ago and it should be perfected by now. It's still the same process and anyone who has ever had to write a script for any kind of game can tell you it is a pain to do. You mess up one letter or one space in a line of code, you screw up everything. Then you have to go back line by line to see where you made the mistake.

<snip>

Each subsequent software builds on experience and knowledge of what came before it.

That Bioware didn't incorperate lessons learned by Mythic - a company integrated into their own - or the numerous other MMO developing companies out there is not same as consumers expecting 'perfect' at all.

 

<snip>

Many forget that their preferred MMO did not launch with the same features they are demanding that TOR should of launched with. Given yes, some should have been in at launch such as macros; but frankly that is something small.

<snip>

 

Many forget that this game is competing with games already on the market and not how they where were they were launched years ago.

 

 

<snip>

 

So as I said, most (not all) people are lemmings. It's popular to hate TOR so they jump on the band wagon so they dont get left out of what is popular.

 

Some are apparently lemmings yes - but it's not who you think it is.

It's not bandwagon to 'hate' TOR. It might be bandwagon to point out that servers are dead and people and guilds are leaving entirely and with upcoming GW2 the server transfers and mergers can only come too late and should have been in place a long time ago. But that it's bandwagon to point that out - does not make it any less so.

 

Going into a 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' mode and calling other people lemmings because they do not share your opinion or preference - whether adapted or genuine by you - will not help this game.

Edited June 2, 2012 by xandax

[Rowandiki]

The reputation would be worse if the mods DIDN'T close the threads of every player's horror story of how their server is dead.

 

No it works against it. Mods need kick out the zealots who circle the forums like vultures waiting for people to post threads that speak ill of TOR. They are the detractors, every thread they jump in and starts fights in derails the purpose of the thread and give the impression of an hostile community.

 

If the zealots stayed away the frustration threads would probably go;

 

1. player complains- thread is ignored or other players with similiar issues post.

2. Thread runs it's course and is pused off the front page.

 

-or-

1. Player complains- thread is ignored or other player see if they can help the player with a problem.

2. After several posts the player either resolves to give it a little bit more time or leaves the game.

 

Both of these share in one aspect of community, agree or disagree and move on. Instead what happens is;

 

Player complains- Zealots attack player. Fanboy jumps in and complains about people complaining, fights break out. Zealot continues to attack people. Fanboys complain about how many threads on the same subject have been made. Fanboy tells people they have no right to complain, that mmo's take time and you must be new. Zealots attack everyone who doesn't agree with them.

 

Gamers reading the thread to get a feel for the community before purchasing buy another game.

Initial poster and other unsubscribe with plans to never return.

Fanboys encourage the players to leave and not come back.

The Zealot feels like they've accomplished something by policing, as less and less threads of this nature pop up.

 

Subscriptions drop.

Problems are fixed slower.

Creates a server population issue.

Zealots come out in full force.

Subscriptions drop further.

Invite a friend and weekend trials fail.

Subscriptions fail to grow.

 

The first thing they need to do is get rid of the zealots on the forums, it's one thing to disagree with a post. But it's an entirely different thing to hunt these threads down to cause arguments in hopes that they are locked. Ban those people from the forum and watch the optimism return, sometimes people need to vent. Let them vent. If you don't word of mouth+ the internet will continue to kill this game.