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The death of the dps sage


Fezikk

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Let's say what is really happening in this game. Bioware created one casting class and it happens to completely suck as dps in pvp. I have played numerous MMOs and I have never seen a more pathetic situation for a caster class. Instead of glass cannons they have created glass bb guns that get owned by every other class. The big problem is that they feel ok when you are doing scrub pre-50 warzones and then you get all the way to 50 and find out you just wasted 80+ hours on a completely worthless pvp class unless you want to do gimp damage and be a "support" player, or be stuck as a healer. Has anyone seen any feedback from Bioware regarding how pathetic dps sages are in pvp? From what I have read from future patch notes the sage isn't getting any type of boost in damage. Unless our dots get boosted about 2-3 times higher than what they currently are, dps sages aren't viable, comparable to other classes, and aren't needed/wanted in competitive warzones. Edited by Fezikk
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I guess sorcerers are feeling the same way.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=367605

 

There is no longer an insane dps spec. Theres not even a decent dps spec.

 

Sorcerer is now a dead class UNLESS......

 

You started the sorcerer for the same reason I did. The pretty lightning shooting from your fingertips and feeling the power flow through your body.

 

We are christmas lights now. We dont actually serve a purpose anymore in pvp/pve.

 

We just look like we are doing something awesome!

 

I applied for an arena team today. Heres the conversation:

 

Terani: "Hi, I would like to join your arena team please."

 

Team Leader: "What class are you, gear, valor?"

 

Terani: "I am a 01/13/28 spec sorcerer who consecutively plays well in WZ's most the time."

 

Team Leader: "Ahhh a sorcerer you say? Sorry you serve no viability for us after 1.2 patch. We want to win, do you mind rerolling Marauder???"

 

Terani: "Seriously? I love my sorcerer I have put over 250+ hours into her. What about her white crystal paid 2.5 million for? Or her valor 65 mount thats being removed from the game at 1.2? IF I reroll marauder I will never have these items. I just want to cry."

 

Team Leader: "Sorry buddy, I didnt think you guys were OP honestly because I rick rolled 60% of the 70% of sorcs in WZ's. Be positive though, take a step back and you will laugh out loud alongside all of us that didnt roll a sorcerer."

 

Terani: "Thank you anyways. Guess forum trolls are right since this is so funny to them that 70% of the playerbase was just told their class is now the least wanted choice for pve or pvp. My options are reroll, quit, or stick with my sorcerer and enjoy my daily dirt naps."

 

 

 

RIP Sorcerer. I loved the lightning. I will log on to look at you occassionally and remenince on what you once were.

Edited by Fezikk
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3/7/31 sage DPS here.

 

First of all we are not "dead". We might not have the ability to stand in the middle of the battle but we are not as bad as you're claiming we are.

Sure we don't have the ability to destroy people at will and stand there tanking 6 DPS....but we're not designed for that.

We were blessed with amazing movement DPS. Weakend mind, Server force (most amazing ability ever), Force inbalance, Force slow, Project, Presence-of-mind Mind Crush...all these things can and should be cast on the move.

 

A torret sage / sorc is an easy target to be blown up by the herpderp sniper / mara.

 

I'll agree that I wish we had some dispell protection but as our dots can be cast on numerous targets and the 4.5 second CD on dispell kinda makes up for it...

 

We have everything in our Arsenal to get away from melee targets. Force sprint, knockback, Server force root, 4sec stun, talented instant lift, force slow...all instant once again.

 

How I play:

 

Keep yourself near a pillar, ledge, box, ramp...pretty much anything you can run behind / knock someone off to get a heal off on yourself. You were given heals, use them!

 

Server force root is the greatest root in the world. 9sec CD for a 2sec root? Take THAT pesky mara, Jugg, Op and PT trying to get up in my face. Full resolve bar? Tough **** they're still getting rooted. (rooting over fire traps is another great killer)

 

Force lift can be a good way to get them to use their trinket and can also be used for the 2second stun if you still have dots on him, allowing you to get behind that object and heal yourself.

 

Multi dotting. Great dmg, great for putting more pressure on the enemy healers. 90% of the time you're not alone in a WZ so added DPS on another target can get the kill on either the healer or the DPS / tank.

 

Bubble on CD. I don't care if no one is hitting you at this present point in time, it's an extra 2.5k-4k HP. IMO the BEST heal in game.

 

You have snares and roots, use them. It's no secret we can't take a hit but we also have the greatest movement in game without relying on other people (Guardian's / Jugg's are Godlike with double leap.)

 

 

Most games I'm 300k+ dmg 100k+ heals through dots, bubbles and quick heals. This is all while playing objectives.

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I agree that Sages are a worthless class. I think the above poster is kidding himself about Sages doing dps. My favorite part of his post was his suggestion of hiding "quick" behind an object and healing quickly. . . I'm still laughing at the ridiculousness of his post. In PVP on the Fatman, "hiding" doesn't work for more than 1.2 seconds because then it turns into the end scene of "Taken" where...you're dead.

 

It only makes sense that if I'm going to be a class that dies easily I should at least have the ability to do some MAJOR damage before I die.

 

It's good to know I'm not the only one who feels Sages are WORTHLESS when it comes to PVP.

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Just curious which server you are on? That crap you listed might work against scrub pickup groups on some servers but on The Fatman you are a free kill and you die before you can do much of that.
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Sorc/Sage dps is not dead at all. Play a 31pt. Heal spec and you know what dead means.

I still see Sorc dps as a viable class/spec.

Sure, it can't compete to the currently op classes like Marauders and Tanksins with dps gear.

But it's not as bad as some people in the forum state.

 

We are still good at helping to pressure healers or making them run out of ressources(DoT-spreading and AoE's).

We are a great support class with our huge utility.

We can kite like no other class.

 

What we lack is a defensive cooldown (Sorc in general, heal also needs one) and maybe a little bit of burst damage.

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Fatman, shwatman, because of low population of my server I have 1-5 players who basically target me right from respawn zone, just by my nickname, no matter my spec or if I am marked or not. Three of them are marauders. My other sage buddybros have a lot in common with me, I am 31 healer, they are either hybrid or 31 Balance.

We still manage. Balance/Madness is a nasty spec, and 20/21 is an overall competetive spec because of s-load of controls, whatever point you are looking at it from.

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It depends if you play in organised teams ever. Reality is when ranked warzones come any good team will need a sage/sorc as if nothing else we have a unique ability that works very well in Huttball. What you will also find is that balanced class sides with ranged/melee/healers tend to work better than ones stacked with just melee classes for obvious reasons I think. Bioware re-worked dps Sage/Sorc into what they deem to be a skilful butterfly punching SWTOR class, so I guess if players don't like the class now then finding another class is best path down which to tread. Edited by Ewgal
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You're not the only one that feels that way.

 

Let's take a look at PvP... yes, "utility" sages are still viable, but you cant have too many (defined by me as more than 1) in a team or it wont work. You want pure DPS? nope you're going to be out-dpsed by other classes, and you sacrifice survivability (trust me two marauders on you and even a healer can't save you without utility spec)

 

Let's take a look at PvE... Gunslingers and Troopers are getting a buff in the next patch. Tell me, which raid team would want us now? On balance we take time to reach full DPS, burst on difficult bosses or mechanics will instantly reveal our weakness (Soa, Kephess Bombardier etc.). Even if we do reach full DPS, i reckon with the upcoming buffs, between a Sage DPS and a gunslinger DPS, i'd take the gunslinger (I personally organize a Nightmare Pilgrim team and already I'd prefer a Gunslinger DPS over Sage DPS)

 

I tried TK for one day and specced out of it immediately after. I simply couldn't pull the sort of DPS that I could on balance, and my mobility went down a LOT.

 

Conclusion, respec healing and bite your teeth through it... The team "doesn't buy" that our nerfs are not unreasonable, they did combat simulations on combat dummies and figured "no, sages have too much static dps when hitting dummies!"

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3/7/31 sage DPS here.

 

First of all we are not "dead". We might not have the ability to stand in the middle of the battle but we are not as bad as you're claiming we are.

Sure we don't have the ability to destroy people at will and stand there tanking 6 DPS....but we're not designed for that.

We were blessed with amazing movement DPS. Weakend mind, Server force (most amazing ability ever), Force inbalance, Force slow, Project, Presence-of-mind Mind Crush...all these things can and should be cast on the move.

 

A torret sage / sorc is an easy target to be blown up by the herpderp sniper / mara.

 

I'll agree that I wish we had some dispell protection but as our dots can be cast on numerous targets and the 4.5 second CD on dispell kinda makes up for it...

 

We have everything in our Arsenal to get away from melee targets. Force sprint, knockback, Server force root, 4sec stun, talented instant lift, force slow...all instant once again.

 

How I play:

 

Keep yourself near a pillar, ledge, box, ramp...pretty much anything you can run behind / knock someone off to get a heal off on yourself. You were given heals, use them!

 

Server force root is the greatest root in the world. 9sec CD for a 2sec root? Take THAT pesky mara, Jugg, Op and PT trying to get up in my face. Full resolve bar? Tough **** they're still getting rooted. (rooting over fire traps is another great killer)

 

Force lift can be a good way to get them to use their trinket and can also be used for the 2second stun if you still have dots on him, allowing you to get behind that object and heal yourself.

 

Multi dotting. Great dmg, great for putting more pressure on the enemy healers. 90% of the time you're not alone in a WZ so added DPS on another target can get the kill on either the healer or the DPS / tank.

 

Bubble on CD. I don't care if no one is hitting you at this present point in time, it's an extra 2.5k-4k HP. IMO the BEST heal in game.

 

You have snares and roots, use them. It's no secret we can't take a hit but we also have the greatest movement in game without relying on other people (Guardian's / Jugg's are Godlike with double leap.)

 

 

Most games I'm 300k+ dmg 100k+ heals through dots, bubbles and quick heals. This is all while playing objectives.

 

hes right play a sage right and hes nasty. i get about the same stats every game, **** i even break 400k from time to time. you gotta be smart when playing stay on the move dont just stand there. all of ya complaining just suck ***. this is how things get nerfed cuz bioware listens to the people who dont know what theyre doing and complain. R.I.P op/smugg

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hes right play a sage right and hes nasty. i get about the same stats every game, **** i even break 400k from time to time. you gotta be smart when playing stay on the move dont just stand there. all of ya complaining just suck ***. this is how things get nerfed cuz bioware listens to the people who dont know what theyre doing and complain. R.I.P op/smugg

 

Which server are you on? Let me guess...a dead server with nobody that knows anything about pvp...so you basically rule the tards. Come play on a real pvp server and you will be lucky to do 200k because they will target you and you will die before you can do anything. Oh, and they only nerf classes when people complain they are OP. Complaining about how bad a class sucks will hopefully get them boosted. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

 

I guess this is all falling on deaf ears because the majority of the real pvp sages either unsubbed or re-rolled other classes. The only ones left are the ones that either heal, are happy being sub-par utility classes, or they are on crappy servers where they can dominate crappy pvpers.

Edited by Fezikk
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The only ones left are the ones that either heal, are happy being sub-par utility classes, or they are on crappy servers where they can dominate crappy pvpers.

 

I suggest to crawl back to your amazing PvP server where not a single person learned how to play a light-armored kiting class then.

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I suggest to crawl back to your amazing PvP server where not a single person learned how to play a light-armored kiting class then.

 

Come on over once they allow transfers and you will see that you can't play a kiting class either against skilled melee. Or you can just play on in ignorance thinking sages are competitive.

Edited by Fezikk
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Step 1: Unbind s key.

 

You can thank me later.

 

lol. so THATS what happened to the sage dps. it was the s key all along....derp

although 99% of the time i dont backpedal, there are times when it doesnt hurt to do so a bit, i think its rather odd to just unbind the key

Edited by xJACKTHERIPPERx
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There is no way I believe that conversation took place. It reads like pure fiction. And I know from fiction.

 

Forget the op just read the other replies agreeing that sages/sorcs suck in pvp.

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I think Fezikk was lightning-noob-spammed a lot in his PvP childhood. Or maybe he is allergic to purple color and wants it to vanish from all the world. "I am a sage/sorc and doing ok!" - "No no read this and that and go there your life is just an illusion" ect. Edited by Shadenuat
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Yeah I'm about done with my Balance Sage. I just hit Valor Rank 62 and I'm tired of getting facerolled by every class that looks my way. If I'm going to be a glass cannon at least give me the cannon part.

 

Maintaining distance is almost impossible in this game. My knockbacks, stuns, roots, mezzes, etc are easily countered by charges, stuns, roots, CC immunities, damage immunities, stealth, etc (and some classes like the Marauder get all of those in one class), but they have the armor + HP to take the pitiful damage I put out while still closing the distance.

 

A marauder can easily do in 1 hit what I can put in in 18 seconds. Guess what, I'm not going to live those 18 seconds to see the benefit. I'm not sure exactly how to fix the mess that is the Sage/Sorcerer(and the Sage is the worse of the 2 because of our crappy animation delays) but it seems like their damage needs to be at least doubled. That would bring the "cannon" back to the glass cannon model.

 

Some may say "well they sacrifice damage for more CC". My counter is that since almost everyone have a lot of CC it's worthless when you factor in Resolve. CC is also overrated in PvE since bosses in Flashpoints are immune to most CC. There needs to be a several DPS builds available - single target DPS (maybe even broken down into burst DPS and DOT DPS), AoE DPS, and DPS + CC build. They should all be better than what we have now DPS-wise since we have so little survivability the DPS needs to offset our fragility.

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3/7/31 sage DPS here.

 

First of all we are not "dead". We might not have the ability to stand in the middle of the battle but we are not as bad as you're claiming we are.

Sure we don't have the ability to destroy people at will and stand there tanking 6 DPS....but we're not designed for that.

We were blessed with amazing movement DPS. Weakend mind, Server force (most amazing ability ever), Force inbalance, Force slow, Project, Presence-of-mind Mind Crush...all these things can and should be cast on the move.

 

A torret sage / sorc is an easy target to be blown up by the herpderp sniper / mara.

 

I'll agree that I wish we had some dispell protection but as our dots can be cast on numerous targets and the 4.5 second CD on dispell kinda makes up for it...

 

We have everything in our Arsenal to get away from melee targets. Force sprint, knockback, Server force root, 4sec stun, talented instant lift, force slow...all instant once again.

 

How I play:

 

Keep yourself near a pillar, ledge, box, ramp...pretty much anything you can run behind / knock someone off to get a heal off on yourself. You were given heals, use them!

 

Server force root is the greatest root in the world. 9sec CD for a 2sec root? Take THAT pesky mara, Jugg, Op and PT trying to get up in my face. Full resolve bar? Tough **** they're still getting rooted. (rooting over fire traps is another great killer)

 

Force lift can be a good way to get them to use their trinket and can also be used for the 2second stun if you still have dots on him, allowing you to get behind that object and heal yourself.

 

Multi dotting. Great dmg, great for putting more pressure on the enemy healers. 90% of the time you're not alone in a WZ so added DPS on another target can get the kill on either the healer or the DPS / tank.

 

Bubble on CD. I don't care if no one is hitting you at this present point in time, it's an extra 2.5k-4k HP. IMO the BEST heal in game.

 

You have snares and roots, use them. It's no secret we can't take a hit but we also have the greatest movement in game without relying on other people (Guardian's / Jugg's are Godlike with double leap.)

 

 

Most games I'm 300k+ dmg 100k+ heals through dots, bubbles and quick heals. This is all while playing objectives.

 

^this - and to anyone say he is kidding himself he is not. I do not have the problems many of you seem to be having other than being focused by competent teams or trains of maras, but then you rely on your team to peel.

 

Sages are not dead at all, they never have been you just need to adapt to the changes, never run into the middle of anything - you are not meant to, los, use height and your range wisely, dots and deathfield for the 10 ticks etc, pressure healers and interupt them, you have more ways to do this than anyone else , your strength is your utility and dots - play to them, use obstacles to break their line of sight, focus modifier cc and interupt when needed, watch resolve, mark the healers, stick on the healers like glue basically. Sure you will die if you let people hit you but dont let them hit you, and when they get you focused, you will die easier than anyone else. Thats the trade off for getting heals, decent mobility and utility. Dps is sustained but very potent if you proc mind crush, use weaken mind and deathfield for the ticks and this burns down healers and forces them on the backfoot. Thats if you play heavy balance or madness but there are plenty of other options for sages such as hybrid heals, or lightning/madness.

 

Not dead at all, hyperbole if i ever saw it.

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^this - and to anyone say he is kidding himself he is not. I do not have the problems many of you seem to be having other than being focused by competent teams or trains of maras, but then you rely on your team to peel.

 

Sages are not dead at all, they never have been you just need to adapt to the changes, never run into the middle of anything - you are not meant to, los, use height and your range wisely, dots and deathfield for the 10 ticks etc, pressure healers and interupt them, you have more ways to do this than anyone else , your strength is your utility and dots - play to them, use obstacles to break their line of sight, focus modifier cc and interupt when needed, watch resolve, mark the healers, stick on the healers like glue basically. Sure you will die if you let people hit you but dont let them hit you, and when they get you focused, you will die easier than anyone else. Thats the trade off for getting heals, decent mobility and utility. Dps is sustained but very potent if you proc mind crush, use weaken mind and deathfield for the ticks and this burns down healers and forces them on the backfoot. Thats if you play heavy balance or madness but there are plenty of other options for sages such as hybrid heals, or lightning/madness.

 

Not dead at all, hyperbole if i ever saw it.

 

I agree. If you are playing a full balance sage in pvp you shouldn't have any issues other than with well coordinated teams which have a few marauders. If you get focused of course you're going down, but so does everyone else with the exception of marauders with their ridiculous cooldowns.

 

Make use of your root properly as balance and you can always keep at a distance, using LOS whenever it is convenient. As long as you are at a distance, you can just burn people down. It is true we have no burst except for the small amount deathfield offers, but multi doting then burning a healer down puts a lot of pressure on the other team.

 

We have the dots and mobility to put pressure on healers and tanks. For those saying you cant kite, you must not be a very good player, and the so called real pvp you are experiencing is not competative at all. There are some very skilled players on my server even despite many of them unsubscribing, and I can tell you for a fact marauders and assassins are probably the only class kiting is not so effective against, but this is just due to their overpowered cooldowns. As for the other classes, slingers and scoundrels are melted pretty easily, as are tanks. If their healers aren't clensing then tanks and smugglers wont last long against your dots. The rest you just have to outplay so you can kill them before they kill you, and this tends only to be a problem against those with defensive cooldowns.

 

If you want to question the usage of sages in PVE, then sure, we have very little to offer in comparison to the other classes at this point.

Edited by Elvandar
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Yeah I'm about done with my Balance Sage. I just hit Valor Rank 62 and I'm tired of getting facerolled by every class that looks my way. If I'm going to be a glass cannon at least give me the cannon part.

 

Maintaining distance is almost impossible in this game. My knockbacks, stuns, roots, mezzes, etc are easily countered by charges, stuns, roots, CC immunities, damage immunities, stealth, etc (and some classes like the Marauder get all of those in one class), but they have the armor + HP to take the pitiful damage I put out while still closing the distance.

 

A marauder can easily do in 1 hit what I can put in in 18 seconds. Guess what, I'm not going to live those 18 seconds to see the benefit. I'm not sure exactly how to fix the mess that is the Sage/Sorcerer(and the Sage is the worse of the 2 because of our crappy animation delays) but it seems like their damage needs to be at least doubled. That would bring the "cannon" back to the glass cannon model.

 

Some may say "well they sacrifice damage for more CC". My counter is that since almost everyone have a lot of CC it's worthless when you factor in Resolve. CC is also overrated in PvE since bosses in Flashpoints are immune to most CC. There needs to be a several DPS builds available - single target DPS (maybe even broken down into burst DPS and DOT DPS), AoE DPS, and DPS + CC build. They should all be better than what we have now DPS-wise since we have so little survivability the DPS needs to offset our fragility.

 

^ This. Sages are so broken I switched to my shadow and now I eat sorcs for lunch because they are so pathetic and are nothing but free kills. I, like most melee classes, have just as much cc as sages and can easily run them down. All of the talk about los and don't backpedal doesn't work against skilled players.

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well Let me tell you real fast that i have a 50 sage on Fatman and I put up 350k-500k on a daily basis in wz's and am perfectly happy with our role in pvp. we are utility dot specced dps. we were way to OP when the game started. I was putting up 700-900k in wz's with our old OP spec and it was rediculous. I still parse around 1300 dps in raids which is about mid pack. so you guys need to do something different cause the class plays fine. Edited by djrobb
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well Let me tell you real fast that i have a 50 sage on Fatman and I put up 350k-500k on a daily basis in wz's and am perfectly happy with our role in pvp. we are utility dot specced dps. we were way to OP when the game started. I was putting up 700-900k in wz's with our old OP spec and it was rediculous. I still parse around 1300 dps in raids which is about mid pack. so you guys need to do something different cause the class plays fine.

 

wait for rated...

 

and while you're parsing 1300~1400 our peers are probably getting better numbers... meaning you will be less of a choice over other classes when building raid teams for difficult situations...

 

(and before you say anything about me not knowing to play my class, I can pull similar numbers when not harassed in PvP, and my PvE parses 1450 DPS only because I have good gear... Gunslingers without the imminent buff can pull the same DPS with gear one tier below mine. So go figure.)

Edited by eventidephoenix
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