Jedi Master/Fleet Admiral

[erei]

Jedi are trained to lead troops. At least most of them. And few of them have special abilities to make them powerful leader (battle meditation or dread masters for example). More than any non force sensitive leader. Also, they are trained since they are child, and knows about the war and strategy of the past.

 

When the Republic is at war with a powerful enemy, and may be destroyed, Jedi lead armies. They protect the Republic, and thus, keep the peace in the galaxy (Si vis pacem, para bellum). They didn't during the mandalorian war, because the Council feared there was something more behind the conflict (IE: the Siths). Some Jedi disobeyed (Reva, Malak, the Exile...), and the Republic gladly used them to lead their armies. As mentioned above, during the clone war, almost every Jedi lead clone troops. Anakin and Kenobi are general, even Ahsoka Tano lead (I think she is even called general from time to time). And she is just a padawan.

 

The Jedi general is mentioned several time ingame : during a quest in from of the Jedi temple on Tython, or on Balmorra (imp side). On Balmorra, a NPC mention the most efficient tactic the republic use is a Jedi general leading a squad of trooper.

 

Jedi are peacekeeper, not pacifist. Protecting the Republic is the best way to have peace for the galaxy, so they protect the Republic. Even if it mean fighting against the Republic enemies.

[Girdeux]

Hmmm...I thought "I can only protect you, I can't fight a war for you" and "we can't use our powers to help her (The Queen)" was based around the Jedi Code.

 

This. Lucas stated that the jedi of the PT were corrupt because they were fighting in wars. Their original purpose were to be ambassadors/peace keepers. Not generals fighting in wars.

 

Pretty much all the jedi follow a corrupt code.

[Maaruin]

I don't see the correlation personally. To get a Surface Warfare pin (which any officer aspiring to be command-at-sea needs), you need to understand engineering, damage control, electronic systems, and all of the other aspects of a ship. Than there's understanding tactics, platform abilities and specifications, ability to keep unit morale up, and so on.

Battle Meditation can only get you so far.

 

This is a time were you see many Jedi military commanders, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is a normal specialzation/profession for Jedi.

There are Jedi diplomats, Jedi archeologists, Jedi cultural explorers, Jedi scientists etc. It seems perfectly possible that other Jedi learn a more military profession and become officers, either in the army or the navy.

 

The other possibility is that he learned all these things during the war. The last war went on for 40 years, I think. If he was sent to assist a fleet with battle meditation at the beginning, he could have been together with the fleet command for 10, 20 years or so. During this time he learned enough to get his own command after that.

 

Would the Jedi Order really accept that though?

 

Why shouldn't they? The Jedi are expected to send commanders in war times. So either they have their own military training or they send some Jedi to the military academy.

 

 

Btw I think it was different during the Clone Wars. Republic and Jedi weren't prepared for war so many Jedi were made generals without the necessary training. The clone troopers didn't have that much military experience either. They were ten years at that time (biologically 20 years), so together with basic education they received 5 years military training at best. It seems they normally had a double-command structure:

1 Jedi General and 1 Clone Commander

 

In the TOR period it was different, though. As I explained, military leader was probably a normal specialization for Jedi.

 

This. Lucas stated that the jedi of the PT were corrupt because they were fighting in wars. Their original purpose were to be ambassadors/peace keepers. Not generals fighting in wars.

 

Pretty much all the jedi follow a corrupt code.

 

If Lucas stated this, I will just ignore him. And most books, games etc. ignore him too. I mean, they are called Jedi Knights normally.

[VanorDM]

This. Lucas stated that the jedi of the PT were corrupt because they were fighting in wars.

 

You'll have to provide some sort of quote before that statement will be taken seriously.

 

Anakin and Obi-wan were both generals in the Clone wars according to Lucas in ANH. All of the Jedi in the clone wars seem to have some sort of military rank. These are all things that Lucas himself have said, so the idea that somehow that he feels that Jedi are corrupt because they are fighting in wars is a major contradiction to the other stuff he said and did.

 

During peace time, the Jedi are peace keepers and diplomats, who seem to try to prevent war. But when war breaks out, they end up either in command of troops or at least fight along side of them in every war that we know of.

[VanorDM]

Battle Meditation can only get you so far.

 

Umm no, that's clearly not true according to all canon. Battle Meditation will make any and all troops much more effective and efficient. Either because the Force can take what they already know and use some sort of pseudo hive-mind to aid them, or because the Force gives the Jedi knowledge that they might not otherwise have.

 

But it's a simple fact of canon that Battle Meditation turns a group of troops or ships into a much, much more effective unit then anything else can or does.

[Maaruin]

Umm no, that's clearly not true according to all canon. Battle Meditation will make any and all troops much more effective and efficient. Either because the Force can take what they already know and use some sort of pseudo hive-mind to aid them, or because the Force gives the Jedi knowledge that they might not otherwise have.

 

But it's a simple fact of canon that Battle Meditation turns a group of troops or ships into a much, much more effective unit then anything else can or does.

 

Still Battle Meditation is different to commanding a fleet. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you have a Jedi/Sith who battle meditates and some sort of commander who leads and gives orders.

[VanorDM]

Still Battle Meditation is different to commanding a fleet.

 

I imagine it depends on who's writing the story...

 

In the Heir to the Empire series, it's quite clear that the Emperor has such total control over the fleet that when he dies they simply stop acting for a short time, and when they start again they have very little coordination of their forces. Thrawn makes a point of this, saying that the Empire would not of lost the battle of Endor, if the troops weren't so tightly controlled by the Emperor that they couldn't function quite right after he died.

 

Jorus C'baoth actually does the same thing, exercising complete control over the fleet and it's personal. Here's a quote from Wookieepedia.

 

Battle meditation was not merely a province of the light side; powerful dark side users could twist the wills of their commanded armies not through subtle influence, but with total domination.

[Maaruin]

I imagine it depends on who's writing the story...

 

In the Heir to the Empire series, it's quite clear that the Emperor has such total control over the fleet that when he dies they simply stop acting for a short time, and when they start again they have very little coordination of their forces. Thrawn makes a point of this, saying that the Empire would not of lost the battle of Endor, if the troops weren't so tightly controlled by the Emperor that they couldn't function quite right after he died.

 

Jorus C'baoth actually does the same thing, exercising complete control over the fleet and it's personal. Here's a quote from Wookieepedia.

 

Okay, maybe. But Jedi Battle Meditation is different, I suppose.

 

And since I don't hold everything in the EU as true Admiral Piet doesn't seem mind controlled in Episode VI. I guess this was only invented to make Luke more the hero, because with the film version you could say: The Emperor would have died anyways.

[Darth_Halford]

I don't see that it should be unreasonable for a jedi to being given such a high command when for 400 years (Between 1,400 bby - 1000 bby) all the Supreme Chancellors of the Republic were Jedis.

Seriously?

 

What the hell man! Is being Force-Sensitive akin to "I do everything better forever?"

[Darth_Halford]

Umm no, that's clearly not true according to all canon. Battle Meditation will make any and all troops much more effective and efficient. Either because the Force can take what they already know and use some sort of pseudo hive-mind to aid them, or because the Force gives the Jedi knowledge that they might not otherwise have.

 

But it's a simple fact of canon that Battle Meditation turns a group of troops or ships into a much, much more effective unit then anything else can or does.

 

And what about when the battle's over? You have a Space Wizard in command of an armada of moving vehicles of war that he has absolutly no understanding of how it functions.

More specifically, Battle Meditation doesn't somehow improve when you're a higher rank (and if it does somewhere, I'm going to have a helmet fire).

[Icebergy]

Hmmm...I thought "I can only protect you, I can't fight a war for you" and "we can't use our powers to help her (The Queen)" was based around the Jedi Code.

 

Its more like a range issue. Dude is melee, he can't shoot guys far away.

[VanorDM]

And what about when the battle's over?

 

What about it? It's not like a fleet admiral would be the one deciding what PM needs to be done, or what systems need to be checked out first. I fail to see any valid point in this statement at all.

 

When the battle is over a Jedi Fleet Admiral would do exactly the same thing any other Fleet Admiral would do. Tell his fleet captains to deal with the clean up and then set course for where ever they're going next.

 

More specifically, Battle Meditation doesn't somehow improve when you're a higher rank

 

No it doesn't, it would be like all other Force powers. Some people would be better able to use it then others, and more powerful Jedi would have a greater effect then weaker ones.

 

The military rank would have zero effect on how good someone is at Battle Meditation. But a Jedi who's exceptionally gifted at it, might be given a higher rank because they can have more impact on the battle.

 

But again I fail to see your point here. We know that Jedi are put in command of troops, and in some cases made to be Fleet Admirals. We know that they are given some sort of training in leading troops, and are tested for their ability to do so.

 

We know that the Jedi in question is between 200 and 300 years old, so the idea that he's learned enough about fleets and space naval combat to earn the rank of Fleet Admiral is hardly far fetched.

[Darth_Halford]

What about it? It's not like a fleet admiral would be the one deciding what PM needs to be done, or what systems need to be checked out first. I fail to see any valid point in this statement at all.

 

When the battle is over a Jedi Fleet Admiral would do exactly the same thing any other Fleet Admiral would do. Tell his fleet captains to deal with the clean up and then set course for where ever they're going next.

But the point is that the Fleet Admiral's need to know everything about the ships they command.

If a captain sends word that the hyperdrive is leaking or that their primary radar systems have been struck, The Fleet Admiral has to be able to understand everything that he's being told so that he can make a proper decision on how to respond, and Battle Meditation doesn't do squat.

 

The military rank would have zero effect on how good someone is at Battle Meditation. But a Jedi who's exceptionally gifted at it, might be given a higher rank because they can have more impact on the battle.

This seems like a self-contradicting phrase. If rank has no affect on Battle Meditation, than how does giving a higher rank translate to having more impact. A person of the same skill will have the same impact if they are a captain or a deck seaman.

 

We know that the Jedi in question is between 200 and 300 years old, so the idea that he's learned enough about fleets and space naval combat to earn the rank of Fleet Admiral is hardly far fetched.

It is within the realm of possibility, sure. It just still seems highly improbable.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Darth_Halford

[VanorDM]

But the point is that the Fleet Admiral's need to know everything about the ships they command.

 

And over a period of 150-200 years a Jedi Knight couldn't learn to know everything that a normal Fleet Admiral might know?

 

You keep pointing out things that you think a Fleet Admiral needs to know, but there's nothing that is going to stop a Jedi Knight from learning those very same things. Especially one with a very long lifespan.

 

If rank has no affect on Battle Meditation, than how does giving a higher rank translate to having more impact.

 

Because rank is all about the size of your command, how many troops or ships you command.

 

It is within the realm of possibility, sure. It just still seems highly improbable.

 

How in the world can that seem highly improbable? He clearly has enough time to do it, given his lifespan, it would be nothing for someone that old to take 3-5 years to learn to command a fleet, we're talking about 1% or less of his adult life. If a normal human who lives for 100 or so years can do it, then why in the world would be at all unlikely someone who lives 2-3 times that long, and will likely live 7-9 times as long, to do the same thing.

 

You seem to keep wanting to impose real life logic and limitations in a situation that they simply have no place.

 

Plus most Jedi seem to be given the title of General, and lead troops. He's one of the few that I know of that's referred to as an Admiral, so the fact that he's in charge of a fleet makes it even more likely that he's spent the time needed to learn what ever is required to be qualified as an Admiral.

 

Pretty much every argument you have made is either frankly silly... "Someone 200-300 years old couldn't of learned how to command a fleet... " Or else has simply been disproved. "Jedi are pacifists." The more you post, the more it seems like you simply don't like the idea of a Jedi being put in charge of a fleet, and you are grasping at straws for why this shouldn't be allowed.

Edited May 31, 2012 by VanorDM

[Maniacraid]

Seriously?

 

What the hell man! Is being Force-Sensitive akin to "I do everything better forever?"

 

In some cases, yes. Not in all cases though. Han Solo was a hell of a pilot, and not force-sensitive, Luke flew a few speeders on Tattooine, and was able to jump into any ship and pilot it just as well as Han. Why? Because he was force-sensitive.

 

Honestly I don't understand why this is such a problem for you. Why is it so improbable that a Jedi could be given command over a fleet? They can command troops on the ground to fight, but not ships in space? The ones the republic give these ranks, they aren't just any ol' Jedi. For the Knights given the rank of General, it's because they've been in battles previously, and have shown that they can lead the armies put under them. They can plan and figure out tactics and strategies, AND then on top of all that, they have the force, so they don't have to just sit back and send in canonfodder, they get out there and fight with the men who entrust their lives to them. Why is it that coordinating a battle with space ships is so unbelievable, and commanding a battle with multiple squads, infantry, and cavalry isn't?

[Darth_Halford]

Why is it that coordinating a battle with space ships is so unbelievable, and commanding a battle with multiple squads, infantry, and cavalry isn't?

 

Neither one is believable to be honest, and the fact that "General" Kenobi or "General" Skywalker is on the front lines with his men is so outside the norm it isn't even funny.

[Maaruin]

Neither one is believable to be honest, and the fact that "General" Kenobi or "General" Skywalker is on the front lines with his men is so outside the norm it isn't even funny.

 

But the Fleet Admiral on the other hand does a pretty good job, doesn't he. He is at his command ship, ordering the fleet around instead of being part of the raid team. I think the Jedi Generals in this game are also more general like.

 

Clone Wars is different, since every Jedi was given the Rank of General, even without further military training. But that was a special situation, since the republic army was just created. I assume clone officers did most of the work for their generals, while the generals did a lot of damage on the battle field.

 

Btw. were is the general during the battle normally? (All generals, from 1-star to 4-star)

[Darth_Halford]

Btw. were is the general during the battle normally? (All generals, from 1-star to 4-star)

 

Typically they are far enough away from the battlespace to minimize risk but close enough to maintain operational awareness of said battlespace.

 

In older times where optional awareness meant being at the field, they were still (usually) at the back of the forces observing how the events play out. Nowadays a General (or Admiral) can be operationally aware on the other side of the world.

 

In an environment like Star Wars where you can get data from one end of the galaxy to the next in Real-Time, an entire war could be planned and operated without ever leaving the Core Worlds. The only snag there is that ships in Hyperspace can't communicate or access any outside data (but by the Rise of the Empire, Hypertrancievers mitigate that)

[Maaruin]

Typically they are far enough away from the battlespace to minimize risk but close enough to maintain operational awareness of said battlespace.

 

But this means Jedi with their mind-connecting battle meditation or other mind-connecting things probably need to be a bit closer, since they have limited range, depending on how talented they are.

 

(Also, a Jedi using his lightsaber could increase the moral of the troop.)

 

In older times where optional awareness meant being at the field, they were still (usually) at the back of the forces observing how the events play out. Nowadays a General (or Admiral) can be operationally aware on the other side of the world.

 

What's the highest ranking officer in the field/the fleet normally, then?

 

In an environment like Star Wars where you can get data from one end of the galaxy to the next in Real-Time, an entire war could be planned and operated without ever leaving the Core Worlds. The only snag there is that ships in Hyperspace can't communicate or access any outside data (but by the Rise of the Empire, Hypertrancievers mitigate that)

 

Since Star Wars is Science Fantasy, expect generals/sdmirals to be a little closer to the battle field. It's the same effect that makes ships shooting at a range where an RL soldier could operate

[Darth_Halford]

But this means Jedi with their mind-connecting battle meditation or other mind-connecting things probably need to be a bit closer, since they have limited range, depending on how talented they are.

True.

 

 

What's the highest ranking officer in the field/the fleet normally, then?

Can't speak with a great deal of knowledge about in the field, but I know in the Navy each Carrier Strike Group is usually commanded by a senior Captain, or a Rear Admiral (which can be either 1 or 2 star)

Each individual Fleet is commanded by a Vice Admiral (3 Star) with exception of fourth fleet, which is a Rear Admiral Upper Half (2 star). Each Command (which would be a combination of Third and Seventh Fleet, 2nd and Sixth, or similar all-encompasing field) would also have a Flag Officer (a 1-4 star Officer).

 

 

Since Star Wars is Science Fantasy, expect generals/sdmirals to be a little closer to the battle field. It's the same effect that makes ships shooting at a range where an RL soldier could operate

Yes and no. There's at least one Fleet Admiral and the "Supreme General" of the Army that are operating and planning out of Coruscant.

[Dan_Loto]

This is a great discussion that I used to hope would come up in the game at some point. I have a level 50 Vanguard that I played as all of the choices he made would be what I would do in that situation. The thought of following orders from some junior Jedi fresh off of Tython is unthinkable. If anything, the Jedi should be taking orders from the Republic officers if they want to play war. It's not quite as bad as getting choke by Sith commanders, but the similarities between the factions are too close for comfort.

Obi-Wan was a General and was often called General Kenobi as well as Master. It's not unheard of for Jedi to have military ranks as well. On Tython there's actually a quest you do (as both the JK and JC) to see if you would qualify to lead Republic troops in a military sense.

 

I don't see it as strange.

 

That quest on Tython was so pathetic that it was an insult to every soldier in the Republic. Kill 12~ training droids and you're suddenly capable of being a military leader? Unbelievable.

We don't know how long the youth for his species is. But him being between 200 and 300 years seems about right.

 

Oteg is one of the few cases where I think a Jedi deserved his military rank. He showed he was worthy through his (flashpoint spoiler)

fight with Kilran.

 

Seriously?

 

What the hell man! Is being Force-Sensitive akin to "I do everything better forever?"

 

(Republic Corellia spoiler)

I realized force sensitivity doesn't matter that much when my Trooper soloed dark council member after dark council member on Corellia.

 

(Also, a Jedi using his lightsaber could increase the moral of the troop.)

 

This is true and a reason to have Jedi fighting alongside Republic soldiers, but not a reason for Jedi to be commanding them.

I'm sure Star Wars land it makes perfect and absolute sense that we let pacifist space-wizards to have the top positions in the military without actual military training, but it hurts my head whenever I think about it.

 

Not in my opinion. I bet General Garza would agree with me.

Not really no. Not when they're already have proven to have mastered the light saber. Why in the world would they want a Jedi to learn to fire a blaster when there is no need for them to use one. It's not like a blaster is somehow superior to a Lightsaber, or that a Jedi actually needs to use one.

 

Like someone said earlier, Obi-wan killed Grevious with one, but just imagine how deadly a Jedi sniper could be.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Dan_Loto

[VanorDM]

In an environment like Star Wars where you can get data from one end of the galaxy to the next in Real-Time

 

That's not quite true. They have to use relay stations and other tech to get communications to get out of a star system, and that tech is pretty fragile. There's been a number of cases where a planet is taken out of the picture because one side or the other manages to destroy their orbital comm systems.

[Path-x]

What is ridiculous in all this is not the fact that he leads the fleet but the fact that he holds Republic Navy rank.

 

For example his Sith counterpart, Darth Malgus, is in the leader of the Imperial Expeditionary Fleet too but he doesn't hold Imperial Navy rank.

 

(note I say leader, not commander)

 

Behind the military rank is a military career which Jedi doesn't have and are even forbidden to have.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Path-x

[DeutschGamer]

They didn't give him that rank permanently, since he is commanding the fleet for that particular mission he is referred to as the ranking Admiral. Need to leave the OCD real world comparisons out of it. Edited June 2, 2012 by DeutschGamer

[Darth_Halford]

They didn't give him that rank permanently, since he is commanding the fleet for that particular mission he is referred to as the ranking Admiral. Need to leave the OCD real world comparisons out of it.

 

Than they need to make it less obvious of a compairon. Ranks that have no comparison to the real world, don't immediatly point out that he is both Jedi and an Officer. Don't say that he's in charge of Marines (1st Expeditionary Fleet), etc.

 

"OCD" levels of comparisons and analysis is part of my job.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Darth_Halford