What is happening to this game? Community mismanagement.

[Deyjarl]

 

Bioware never accepted this. They designed for single player leveling customers. They built the game around "YOUR star wars story," but what they never thought about was OUR star wars story. You and me--YOU, reading this! Skavak stole YOUR ship, too? You're ALSO Lord Zash's apprentice?? Immediately we are split from each other. Sure, they can't pre-write computer content that adapts to every individual player. But they can help us write it in-game. That's how other MMOs build community; by letting the players peek backstage and run the show.

 

Trying to figure out what MMO doesn't do this? I can play WoW, or any number of MMOs the same way.

 

You can't blame the instancing, I've gone on other class instances and quests, while on mine in groups.

[DiabloDoom]

Don't mean to troll, but how can it decline if it never existed, those are two contradictory states.

[kevlarto]

Community has be going downhill for some time now, allot of today's gamers just don't seem to get what community is all about, sad really, I have played mmo's since the late 90's, I have seen the decline, don't know what any one can do, but just play through I guess /shrug

[Gungan]

Trying to figure out what MMO doesn't do this? I can play WoW, or any number of MMOs the same way.

 

You can't blame the instancing, I've gone on other class instances and quests, while on mine in groups.

 

Except you can't participate in those quests, you just watch them.

[Gungan]

Game was not rushed. MMO are ongoing projects and swtor has a lot of features at launch. More will be added in time. look at other mmo and you sse the same thing. So i judge BW (and so should you) not on how much content was implemented at launch but how much content will be added and at which rate. and i have to say compared to WoW they do very good job at it.

 

So if SWTOR is already playing catch up on back-end features, when are they going to have the time to be proactive and put on interesting front-end content?

[MeowOrNever]

legacy 1.3 seems to be aiming to make it a much more communal game. server transfers and a group finder? hell yeah! thats what everyone on the threads has been begging for since the game came out. i say your complaints are valid but theyre damn well working on it.

[DkStrider]

When all the people working on SWTOR, and managing these forums, started censoring every negative thing people had to say about the game I knew it was going to die fast - especially after watching the "guild summit" - which was the biggest community of "Lets pat ourselves on the back and ignore major issues". No real questions were asked, when they said "You can't just add endgame content its all about the story-line and role-playing" I knew it was dead, that's when I quit playing. I'm so sad, I wanted this game to do good. They had the best basis for the game with quests, but refused to focus on cranking out endgame content. Why they couldn't just make a 5min awesome cinematic video and say "Here's the story, GO".

 

But really, the developers and management shot themselves in the face on this one. When you shut off your community because they're complaining, you are going to fail. The problem is they obviously did not learn the lesson from the first go-around, and I doubt they will succeed another time either. Getting in bed with EA is a freaking terrible idea.

 

Next time don't censor your forums, listen to people and let people reply to posts so you can see exactly how many thousands of people care enough to post about it and tell you they are pissed.

 

It's so amusing looking at the forums now, all you see are negative posts, and when they first opened they shut those down so fast and only kept the positive ones, which got negative comments added to them and then those were deleted. They tried so hard, and now I guess there just isn't anyone left to post anything positive about the game so they gave up? I'm absolutely amazed this thread is as long as it is without being shut down by a moderator. Probably just has to do with the layoffs. I'm sure once someone gets back to work they will lock this thread and delete it.

[trussasp]

Hi OP:

 

While some of your ideas sound pretty darn cool, this was stuff that was likely shot down during development of the game for some reason or another.

 

What you're describing is a different MMO altogether.

 

(don't misunderstand me, I'm onboard with what you are saying, but the additions/changes you propose are not in the framework of SWTOR, not even close from what I can see)

 

My suggestion to you is to get in somehow with the teams working on Titan, or another game in development.

(while it is still in development, is the key)

[SolHalcon]

Community has be going downhill for some time now, allot of today's gamers just don't seem to get what community is all about, sad really, I have played mmo's since the late 90's, I have seen the decline, don't know what any one can do, but just play through I guess /shrug

 

The above comment is hitting the cause of the problem spot on.

 

I can agree with some of the OP comments, as I played SWG too....until just after the NGE. It was really "your" story. I also play EVE online too. However both of those games are/were sandboxes. You had to have community or you were really alone. I think the real problem is with the X-Box mentality. You know, basically single player, no real forum or community mind set. Log in, get shoved into a group etc...

 

I just answered a post here where someone thinks it's impossible to get social points. That falls right into this same catagory. People ether refusing to, or afraid to, group up and actually make friends. Every time I go to the space station, I see about 50 people standing around the drop ship thing looking for a group! So we always ask if someone wants to join us if we feel like a flash point. Some join and we go off and have a great time, Others think I just asked for a job interview. "How much DPS in your group?" "Do you have at least 2 healers?" "I only join groups with a minimum of 2 tanks", etc... It's only Athesis for Gods sake, our 2 spys will get you through it.. You want the boss gear or not?

 

What happened to just grouping up for the hell of it? I think the rakkgoul event was the best social event they had yet. While everyone stood at the station getting sick, people actually broke the ice and communicated.....Wow, communication....what a concept! Then, on Tatt., folks were helping each other with the golds etc....was great fun.

 

Those are the events that break the "I only play alone" isolation mentality and make the game social and fun.

[Zainichi]

+1 That's about it to a T.

Would I be upset if they added for RP elements to the game? Nope. Is it something I'm dying for them to add to the game? Nope.

I played SWG back when it first came out for about a year. While there were a couple neat innovations ultimately the game proved way boring. Even tried the entertainer path for a bit there ... then I realized I could just as easily be in a real bar, with my RL friends, drinking real alcohol and listening to real music. And more importantly, that those types of things are not what I was looking for in a MMO.

 

You have to realize that there are people out there on the internet that prefer spending time with online friends rather than with RL friends. It's not my cup of tea but nevertheless respect to those people. Live your life how you choose. Those people aren't freaks. They are actually normal, friendly, funny people.

 

To have these people in an MMO-game is a blessing. They are what make the community unique. I remember walking into Mos Eisley cantina and seeing the same 4 entertainers there every single day (them among a dozen of others). They'd be dancing, playing their instruments, chatting with each others and all the others in the cantina. Like a real life local cantina. You see the same familiar faces.

 

When you walk into a cantina like that in an MMO game then you know that its YOUR cantina. This is your prefered hangout. You know the people there. Your server, your planet, your town, your cantina. Thats how an MMO is supposed to be.

[Jimer_Lins]

Someone above pointed it out- this game never really had a community because BioWare worked from day one to prevent the formation of one- not, I think with malevolent intent but just because they did not (and do not) understand that MMOs live and die by their community.

 

If people don't feel like they're part of a community, they don't feel any loyalty. I don't know anyone on my server but my guildmates and a small set of others- I can count the number of people I have seen more than once by encountering them in the game world on one hand.

 

Everyone you meet is a generic cipher; there's no sense of context. We might as well not be visible to each other in the game.

 

No server forums. No ability to talk cross-faction. No ability to promote an in-game event by linking a URL. Dead community forum- BioWare has no concept of how to make a successful MMO last. I said it before, MMOs are terrible games to play as standalone single-player games. There's so many better options for gameplay, features, etc.

 

We play MMOs for the people we play with. BioWare keeps erecting barriers between us and wonders why we don't feel like playing as much? It's asinine.

[Deewe]

While a few things you posted have merit, you are more or less posting your opinion on the rest. Opinions are not facts and should not be stated as such.

 

There is plenty of end game PvE content so far. Our guild is still running through HMs. Sorry, this isn't a sandbox game.

Could you please be more specific naming the entries and explaining why you think they aren't facts?

[Talarchy]

They replaced a SANDBOX MMO of Starwars with a Singleplayer LINEAR Starwars game with Multiplayer functions.

 

Instead of EA buying out SoE and hosting SWG alongside with ToR, they just kicked it out and likely paid off SoE to not release the code. (Lucas, not EA)

 

MMO's need to have Sandbox features... Starwars, although dated, made huge... and I mean huge, steps forward.

 

Player housing, the ability to decorate housing perfectly.

Ships, again that you could decorate.

Planets that, although not really that big, took half an hour to speed one end to another; walking took literally hours.

 

Although the plots are great, the combat system - spot on. This is still basically a singleplayer game.

It feels like Diablo 2 did... you can finish the game alone, but sometimes... you might want a *little* company.

 

and if you want epic 15+ people fighting, guess what... Rift has that covered and then some.

 

ToR, you really need to Sandbox up or you'll continue to lose subs.

(Massive hint: Buyout SoE and launch SWG!, I'll even freaking sub to it!)

 

What Bioware failed to acknowledge, is that at least 70 percent of the original player base for this game were people patiently waiting for its release who came from SWG... then they introduced this game and it was so much of a WoW knock off, all the SWG people left mainly for the reasons you state above, so now, the game is populated by whiney, whiney (did I say whiney?) WoW players or ex-WoW players.. it really has been the most negative 6 months on any MMO I have ever spent in the last 2 decades.

[Gungan]

What Bioware failed to acknowledge, is that at least 70 percent of the original player base for this game were people patiently waiting for its release who came from SWG... then they introduced this game and it was so much of a WoW knock off, all the SWG people left mainly for the reasons you state above, so now, the game is populated by whiney, whiney (did I say whiney?) WoW players or ex-WoW players.. it really has been the most negative 6 months on any MMO I have ever spent in the last 2 decades.

 

I'm not sure that's totally accurate... Did SWG even have a high enough pop for the numbers to jive?

[Jimer_Lins]

I'm not sure that's totally accurate... Did SWG even have a high enough pop for the numbers to jive?

 

Sure. A lot of people were waiting for a SW MMO to replace SWG since the NGE.

 

YMMV.

[Dokar]

I'm not sure that's totally accurate... Did SWG even have a high enough pop for the numbers to jive?

 

SWG peaked around 350K subs.

[-Dench]

OP, this is such a GREAT post.

 

 

I was very annoyed with the "THIS IS YOUR LEGACY IN STAR WARS, YOU CAN BE A HERO" crap that they jammed down our throats.

 

I don't want to be a hero. I don't want to have a Legacy. Like you said, I don't want to be THE Imperial Agent, or THE Emperors Wrath. I don't care about any of that crap. I just want to hang out with people, and do events with other players.

 

I want to be some guy, who does what he wants, is unique and is not bound by this ultra controlling story on rails that every else is on.

 

I want to wear a white t shirt with stains on it, a pair of pants that haven't been washed in two years, some boots and a slug thrower (the actual 'real' gun type weapon that shoots projectiles/bullets).

 

This games story, while cool the 1st time around, is no more complicated then the on rails Star Fox 64 shooter we have for a space sim. I'll never forget last summer when i heard them say the space game was on rails. Here I am, thinking "A Star Wars game, coming out in 2011, that has a on rails space game? seriously? Welcome to 1997."

 

 

 

The entire game is a very selfish experience. it's all about you. your toon. you being a super hero. you saving the galaxy from someone or something. problem is, everyone else is doing the same thing, all the while there is nothing else really to do.

[Kubernetic]

TL;DR--The declining community in this game is a result of community never existing, because players don't feel like we own the game. We're borrowing it, visiting it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my take.

 

I go through these forums about once a day and see serious issues. I get it, that's what MMO discussion forums are like, but this is different. It used to be the usual nitpicks, but now the complaints are "I can't do content because my server is empty!!" This is what everyone says, and it's game-killing. People here talk about how this is a function of servers with low pop caps, too many servers, etc. This is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is a lack of community.

 

Bioware never accepted this. They designed for single player leveling customers. They built the game around "YOUR star wars story," but what they never thought about was OUR star wars story. You and me--YOU, reading this! Skavak stole YOUR ship, too? You're ALSO Lord Zash's apprentice?? Immediately we are split from each other. Sure, they can't pre-write computer content that adapts to every individual player. But they can help us write it in-game. That's how other MMOs build community; by letting the players peek backstage and run the show.

 

Two of the coolest MMO experiences I've ever had were community things, not story things. One was playing in a band outside the tavern in Bree in LOTRO. They had a music system! And drinking! And it ruled! Partying as an elf.

 

Then there was the 1,000 person PvP battle in SWG where the Devs came in and added NPC soldiers and AT-STs and Rebel vehicles because some players planned a battle and the Devs were EAGER to oblige. Sure, the server crashed eventually, but it was awesome. Should I mention the city my guild founded, where I was a gun-toting, deadly bar owner with a personal spacecruiser who also distilled some wicked brandy? That uniqueness was normal.

 

But with SWTOR, I log in and I'm not MY Jedi Knight. I'm THE Jedi Knight, who flies a Defender and who did the things you all did and lives in the same circular fleet his enemies live in. I can hang out with friends, maybe, and share their experience of THE smuggler or THE agent, but that's it. We can't make OUR story. There's no freedom.

 

This lack of OUR story is everywhere. We can chat with our guild, but we can't make a home for it. Why invite other players to a party on the same ship that's sitting in their hangar? We can't decorate. We can adventure in private but we can't invite our friends to a private cantina party. We can't make our own quest-style events.

 

There's no real server forums. We can't make server-wide events. We receive no support from you guys when we try. We're just visiting. So when you ask what causes pop to drop and people to unsub, why people feel there's no endgame--it's because they don't OWN this game. They don't call a server HOME. I pay for it, but I can't make it mine.

 

I got asked into some survey about this game and what I'd buy in an expansion. It asked me if I wanted new content. If I wanted a heroic speeder, or an ewok. Never once asked what I want to do with other people in the game. MMOs mean doing stuff with other people. You can load my stock ship with furry bears, but unless you let us inhabit this game rather than visit it, you're going to lose subscribers once they get tired of visiting your house.

 

You have to make us feel like cool and unique parts of a cool and unique community. In every guild, on every server. Doesn't matter if my story is about being a powergamer or about RP. Stop thinking you're smarter than your players and your story is the only story. It's arrogant and many resent it. Let us have something we can make our own, and better yet, help us make it work.

 

Some of those things would be nice. I'd like to have a music system where we could play some music with each other. But that isn't what I came to the game for. I came to play out a Star Wars fantasy in a video game, and this game provides it in droves.

 

I guess this is just a personal difference. But you aren't me. I'm not you. I have *MY* character. They look like *I* want them to look. I don't care what Republic army you're fighting for, and I don't care if you report to General Garza. You might have a Havoc Squad logo on your armor, but you aren't in MY Havoc Squad. You don't fly MY ship.

 

When I play, I'm playing my characters. I could care less what other people are going through. I don't care that you went through the same missions as me. I don't care if you have access to the same armors, or even that our characters might have a few features in common.

 

My character is my character, and what you are and what you're doing has no bearing or impact on my game. My companions are MY companions. I don't really care that you have the same companions.

 

Much of your opinion is because of the way YOU are approaching it. You're reading a lot into it that BioWare didn't put there. And I dare say that on further digging, almost anything else from any other game would be the same way. Whatever skills are there, are there because they were programmed there. Whatever story elements are there are there because story developers put them there. Even if there's a PVP-for-Territory option in the game you're referring to, it's there because developers set that path up, not because players did it themselves.

 

This is a game, not a real life simulator. There will be things you could do in real life that you can't do in a game. As an example, I don't need game alcohol. If I want to feel inebriated while I'm playing a game, I'll buy some real alcohol and drink it and play. The "drunken player" mechanic was great... back when Nethack and Redneck Rampage did it.

 

That being said, I still want a "Drunken Jedi Master" fighting style, Devs. Make that happen, won't you?

 

Yes, there are some social things that would make the game a lot better. I'd love some casino/card minigames. I'd love to have some podracing and podrace books. But some things are going to take time, and they aren't going to be there 6 months into the game when it's just getting its legs.

 

You gave an anecdotal story about SWG. How far into SWG's development cycle was this giant PVP battle? Was it during the first 6 months?

 

Are you giving this game the same chances you gave other games to flourish and add new features over time, or are you impatiently demanding more on a faster timetable because "other games have already done it"?

 

That's the question, if you ask me.

[SviBudd]

This is a beautifully insightful post. /tiphat

 

I couldn't agree more with the OP, From day 1 I never felt like I played any sort of role in this TOR universe. I never really could put words to this feeling, but the OP's reference to feeling like we are visiting, not a part of this world is perfect. There is no sense of ownership in this game. Instead of spending time and money creating 5 quests for 1 million players, why not give the 1 million players the ability to make their own quests/content. I guarantee they produce more, and for free.

[JohnSkylar]

legacy 1.3 seems to be aiming to make it a much more communal game. server transfers and a group finder? hell yeah! thats what everyone on the threads has been begging for since the game came out. i say your complaints are valid but theyre damn well working on it.

 

I really, really hope you're right that these will add that extra dimension that I and those like me are looking for.

 

Also thanks again to everyone helping to make this thread useful.

Edited May 31, 2012 by JohnSkylar

[mattgyver]

Some of those things would be nice. I'd like to have a music system where we could play some music with each other. But that isn't what I came to the game for. I came to play out a Star Wars fantasy in a video game, and this game provides it in droves.

 

I guess this is just a personal difference. But you aren't me. I'm not you. I have *MY* character. They look like *I* want them to look. I don't care what Republic army you're fighting for, and I don't care if you report to General Garza. You might have a Havoc Squad logo on your armor, but you aren't in MY Havoc Squad. You don't fly MY ship.

 

When I play, I'm playing my characters. I could care less what other people are going through. I don't care that you went through the same missions as me. I don't care if you have access to the same armors, or even that our characters might have a few features in common.

 

My character is my character, and what you are and what you're doing has no bearing or impact on my game. My companions are MY companions. I don't really care that you have the same companions.

 

Much of your opinion is because of the way YOU are approaching it. You're reading a lot into it that BioWare didn't put there. And I dare say that on further digging, almost anything else from any other game would be the same way. Whatever skills are there, are there because they were programmed there. Whatever story elements are there are there because story developers put them there. Even if there's a PVP-for-Territory option in the game you're referring to, it's there because developers set that path up, not because players did it themselves.

 

This is a game, not a real life simulator. There will be things you could do in real life that you can't do in a game. As an example, I don't need game alcohol. If I want to feel inebriated while I'm playing a game, I'll buy some real alcohol and drink it and play. The "drunken player" mechanic was great... back when Nethack and Redneck Rampage did it.

 

That being said, I still want a "Drunken Jedi Master" fighting style, Devs. Make that happen, won't you?

 

Yes, there are some social things that would make the game a lot better. I'd love some casino/card minigames. I'd love to have some podracing and podrace books. But some things are going to take time, and they aren't going to be there 6 months into the game when it's just getting its legs.

 

You gave an anecdotal story about SWG. How far into SWG's development cycle was this giant PVP battle? Was it during the first 6 months?

 

Are you giving this game the same chances you gave other games to flourish and add new features over time, or are you impatiently demanding more on a faster timetable because "other games have already done it"?

 

That's the question, if you ask me.

 

gonna summarize for you:

1) I don't care about other players or their stupid experiences

2) I like real life booze

3) SWG was for nerds

4) I like real life booze

[Elkirin]

I agree with some parts of the OP.

 

I personally feel that the issue with most games is the Lack of personal responsibility by the players.

 

We have long waits for PvP yet we are happy to abuse or Roflstomp others until they quit...

 

We have difficulties forming groups but when someone asks a question in chat they get thoughtless replies that go unchallenged.

 

We wish for more social events but when someone tries to start one, we do not support them because it is not "exactly" what we wanted....

 

Players can always make the best of a game and by example, show devs the areas we are interested in.

[Zergnaut]

I honestly think that all of you went into this game expecting far too much. I went into this game with 0 expectations, no granade I am on the fat man server so I do not have the fustration of being on a dead server. Those of you that are I feel for you I really do; this reply is not about population it is about game content.

 

Granted I am a casual player and a one character guy, due to the fact that I have no alts I was able to grind the Warlord pvp title. Once again because I went into this game with no expectations whatsoever I am actually enjoying it. I agree the server population problem is a huge issue; however I think most of you expected too much too fast. That is in my opinion the real issue here.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Zergnaut

[mattgyver]

I honestly think that all of you went into this game expecting far too much. I went into this game with 0 expectations, no granade I am on the fat man server so I do not have the fustration of being on a dead server. Those of you that are I feel for you I really do; this reply is not about population it is about game content.

 

Granted I am a casual player anyone character guy, due to the fact that I have no alts I was able to grind the war lord title. Once again because I wanted this game with no expectations whatsoever I am actually enjoying it. I agree the server population problem is a huge issue; however I think most of you expected too much too fast.

 

How could you be disappointed if you had no expectations? I hope you don't expect anything at endgame cause guess what ... I won't spoil it for you.

[Zergnaut]

How could you be disappointed if you had no expectations? I hope you don't expect anything at endgame cause guess what ... I won't spoil it for you.

 

Do not expect anything at end game ? You did not read my post it all did you? I famed the Warlord Title aka valor rank 90. You can not get more end game than that