What is happening to this game? Community mismanagement.

[Mannic]

Yet, for all the OP's pontifications, there are those of us who HAVE made this game, OUR story. We do not need to have to rely on what placed in front of us to have it be the same story as everyone else's. Lest we forget, this is a mmoRPG, which means you are free to use, change or ignore what is offered you to help you, in YOUR own mind, make it: Your story.

 

Once you try that, things become a little bit more of a sandbox. Once people begin to start taking an interest in other players more as actual characters, to interact with (dare I use the word ROLEPLAY) rather than "gear to run through Flashpoint/OP XX in the least amount of time", things will take a far different turn and mindset.

 

Ive done the gear runs, the blasting through content in other MMO's. I came to the conclusion that style of game play does nothing but breed contempt for the makers, to get more content out, to blast through it again. This game, made me slow down and appreciate things for how and WHY it is developed in the way SWTOR has been. I interact with others as my character would, developed a concept behind the character to give it digital life. Trust me, it makes ALL the difference.

 

Bioware has my support because of this. sure I cant sit in a chair..yet. Its hardly a game breaking issue. Chalk that up to my character wearing armor. You ever try to sit while wearing armor? Damn near impossible.

 

I remember another MMO that neglected to have seating arrangements for a certain faction back in the day, and at start, came very close to losing my subscription. I waited it out, and stayed with it while it grew. 7 years later, I am more than happy to do the same kind of support here, because in SWTOR, the game begins at level one.

 

The hell are you talking about? There's never been an MMO that "placed it in front of you" like this game. The story becomes an anchor around the game's neck. "RPG" and "interactive movie" aren't the same things. Just because you like having your hand held doesn't mean other people wouldn't enjoy some actual MMO in their RPG.

[DAMABLANCA]

Less QQ and more pew pew makes the game better.

 

Original.

[Skidrowbro]

The hell are you talking about? There's never been an MMO that "placed it in front of you" like this game. The story becomes an anchor around the game's neck. "RPG" and "interactive movie" aren't the same things. Just because you like having your hand held doesn't mean other people wouldn't enjoy some actual MMO in their RPG.

 

On the conrtrary, having your hand held would be more the devs holding your hand to put you in a group with others. You are the only one in control of trying to group up. Yes if your server is dead that will be hard but I personally go out of my way to quest with other players, not just to run FP's all day long.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[JonJW]

TL;DR--The declining community in this game is a result of community never existing, because players don't feel like we own the game. We're borrowing it, visiting it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my take.

 

I go through these forums about once a day and see serious issues. I get it, that's what MMO discussion forums are like, but this is different. It used to be the usual nitpicks, but now the complaints are "I can't do content because my server is empty!!" This is what everyone says, and it's game-killing. People here talk about how this is a function of servers with low pop caps, too many servers, etc. This is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is a lack of community.

 

Bioware never accepted this. They designed for single player leveling customers. They built the game around "YOUR star wars story," but what they never thought about was OUR star wars story. You and me--YOU, reading this! Skavak stole YOUR ship, too? You're ALSO Lord Zash's apprentice?? Immediately we are split from each other. Sure, they can't pre-write computer content that adapts to every individual player. But they can help us write it in-game. That's how other MMOs build community; by letting the players peek backstage and run the show.

 

Two of the coolest MMO experiences I've ever had were community things, not story things. One was playing in a band outside the tavern in Bree in LOTRO. They had a music system! And drinking! And it ruled! Partying as an elf.

 

Then there was the 1,000 person PvP battle in SWG where the Devs came in and added NPC soldiers and AT-STs and Rebel vehicles because some players planned a battle and the Devs were EAGER to oblige. Sure, the server crashed eventually, but it was awesome. Should I mention the city my guild founded, where I was a gun-toting, deadly bar owner with a personal spacecruiser who also distilled some wicked brandy? That uniqueness was normal.

 

But with SWTOR, I log in and I'm not MY Jedi Knight. I'm THE Jedi Knight, who flies a Defender and who did the things you all did and lives in the same circular fleet his enemies live in. I can hang out with friends, maybe, and share their experience of THE smuggler or THE agent, but that's it. We can't make OUR story. There's no freedom.

 

This lack of OUR story is everywhere. We can chat with our guild, but we can't make a home for it. Why invite other players to a party on the same ship that's sitting in their hangar? We can't decorate. We can adventure in private but we can't invite our friends to a private cantina party. We can't make our own quest-style events.

 

There's no real server forums. We can't make server-wide events. We receive no support from you guys when we try. We're just visiting. So when you ask what causes pop to drop and people to unsub, why people feel there's no endgame--it's because they don't OWN this game. They don't call a server HOME. I pay for it, but I can't make it mine.

 

I got asked into some survey about this game and what I'd buy in an expansion. It asked me if I wanted new content. If I wanted a heroic speeder, or an ewok. Never once asked what I want to do with other people in the game. MMOs mean doing stuff with other people. You can load my stock ship with furry bears, but unless you let us inhabit this game rather than visit it, you're going to lose subscribers once they get tired of visiting your house.

 

You have to make us feel like cool and unique parts of a cool and unique community. In every guild, on every server. Doesn't matter if my story is about being a powergamer or about RP. Stop thinking you're smarter than your players and your story is the only story. It's arrogant and many resent it. Let us have something we can make our own, and better yet, help us make it work.

 

I love Lotro been a sub for about 3 years, and that's what i'm currently playing again while waiting for transfers.

[Bloodstealer]

I disagree,

 

BW does everything you people whine for at the forums, no other company does this. They do carry your butt´s now also to LFG´s, they add your dps meters, they even add 8men only queues for pvp.

 

They will merge servers soon, not caring that some are actually happy on theirs ...

 

You get everything but you are never happy and this is killing the game. BW does what you want, but at the same time will lose players like me who were happy with the game once.

 

Me,me,me,me... sheesh I tire of your constant hate blabber.. you never seem to actually add anything to a thread only downtread or attemtpt to derail it with your hater nonsense.

This thread is actually one of the better ones I have seen on these forums for a long time... it does'nt seek to incite hate posts. Try putting something constructive together, maybe even pose some suggestions, you know the kind of things that might actually get you taken serious...

 

OP great post I think you you earned some +1's here...

 

For any EU players from another MMO who play here...the name Brannigan might stand out.

That player was just everythng about community.. he worked tirelessly getting game devs etc into interacting with the games community, even managed many fun and interesting special events with their help, special rare or unique items etc were donated into the game specifically for Brannigans events, he brought a breath of fresh air, especially when that MMO was also in crisis mode in the EU... We sure could use some of that kind of 2-way intereaction and initiative here at the moment.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[pureeffinmetal]

Interesting Article from Massively that might be germaine.

 

 

 

I hope things turn around. Shadow Hand used to be in the top 20 for server pops at standard all the time now its even light on weekends.

 

Shadow Hand is still top 20.

 

This last weekend was memorial weekend....people were I dunno? Out with their families perhaps?

[Urael]

Shadow Hand is still top 20.

 

This last weekend was memorial weekend....people were I dunno? Out with their families perhaps?

 

Just checked top 20 but, drop in population:

 

Shadow Hand » ø 1.09 -0.24

 

It's a Ghost town compared to what it used to be.

 

So if this server is still "top 20" it is telling for all those that are not.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Urael

[Arkerus]

TL;DR--The declining community in this game is a result of community never existing, because players don't feel like we own the game. We're borrowing it, visiting it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my take.

 

I go through these forums about once a day and see serious issues. I get it, that's what MMO discussion forums are like, but this is different. It used to be the usual nitpicks, but now the complaints are "I can't do content because my server is empty!!" This is what everyone says, and it's game-killing. People here talk about how this is a function of servers with low pop caps, too many servers, etc. This is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is a lack of community.

 

Bioware never accepted this. They designed for single player leveling customers. They built the game around "YOUR star wars story," but what they never thought about was OUR star wars story. You and me--YOU, reading this! Skavak stole YOUR ship, too? You're ALSO Lord Zash's apprentice?? Immediately we are split from each other. Sure, they can't pre-write computer content that adapts to every individual player. But they can help us write it in-game. That's how other MMOs build community; by letting the players peek backstage and run the show.

 

Two of the coolest MMO experiences I've ever had were community things, not story things. One was playing in a band outside the tavern in Bree in LOTRO. They had a music system! And drinking! And it ruled! Partying as an elf.

 

Then there was the 1,000 person PvP battle in SWG where the Devs came in and added NPC soldiers and AT-STs and Rebel vehicles because some players planned a battle and the Devs were EAGER to oblige. Sure, the server crashed eventually, but it was awesome. Should I mention the city my guild founded, where I was a gun-toting, deadly bar owner with a personal spacecruiser who also distilled some wicked brandy? That uniqueness was normal.

 

But with SWTOR, I log in and I'm not MY Jedi Knight. I'm THE Jedi Knight, who flies a Defender and who did the things you all did and lives in the same circular fleet his enemies live in. I can hang out with friends, maybe, and share their experience of THE smuggler or THE agent, but that's it. We can't make OUR story. There's no freedom.

 

This lack of OUR story is everywhere. We can chat with our guild, but we can't make a home for it. Why invite other players to a party on the same ship that's sitting in their hangar? We can't decorate. We can adventure in private but we can't invite our friends to a private cantina party. We can't make our own quest-style events.

 

There's no real server forums. We can't make server-wide events. We receive no support from you guys when we try. We're just visiting. So when you ask what causes pop to drop and people to unsub, why people feel there's no endgame--it's because they don't OWN this game. They don't call a server HOME. I pay for it, but I can't make it mine.

 

I got asked into some survey about this game and what I'd buy in an expansion. It asked me if I wanted new content. If I wanted a heroic speeder, or an ewok. Never once asked what I want to do with other people in the game. MMOs mean doing stuff with other people. You can load my stock ship with furry bears, but unless you let us inhabit this game rather than visit it, you're going to lose subscribers once they get tired of visiting your house.

 

You have to make us feel like cool and unique parts of a cool and unique community. In every guild, on every server. Doesn't matter if my story is about being a powergamer or about RP. Stop thinking you're smarter than your players and your story is the only story. It's arrogant and many resent it. Let us have something we can make our own, and better yet, help us make it work.

 

I would never trade the heroic story for being jedi knight #1452. You can have your opinion but I disagree with your premise.

 

Truth is, the community doesn't even know what the they want. The vocal minority yells and screams on the forums while the rest of us are "ok" with what Bioware is doing. The game had a huge drop in subs because bioware opened too many damn servers.

[Jimer_Lins]

I've harped on this since day one- BioWare has made it crystal clear that they either do not understand or do not want a real community. The OP has it spot-on.

 

Without the community, there is no game. MMOs are generally suck rocks in terms of straight gameplay; they really aren't much fun- there are always more engaging and interesting options if you only look at the game itself.

 

It's the people you play with that bring people back over and over, and that critical component is something BioWare ignored and actively worked against since the earliest days of this game.

 

Communities need consistency, a way to communicate (forums), they need personalities to rally around- heroes and villains. How many of you could tell an epic story involving a person or group in a game you played that other people would recognize? If you played EVE, you know of m00, BoB and GHSC, if you were on the Scylla server of SWG you knew who GTF and The Church of Alvis were, and so on... without the framework in which you can have those personalities take the fore, you have essentially nothing but a pretty bad singleplayer game.

 

Unfortunately, even if BioWare had a "Come to $DIETY" moment right now (or even a month ago), I'm afraid it would be too late. The damage has been done and the passionate community members are largely gone or leaving.

[magnuskn]

I'm one who unsubbed and will probably never return. But the problem with the story element for me was that forcing it onto an MMO made the storytelling worse. Much worse than other BioWare games.

 

Recurring NPC's? Your crew and a very few NPC's... but most don't carry between chapters. A cool NPC who you met on a planet quest? Gone forever after leaving that planet.

 

Replaying the game with different classes clearly showed the strings guiding the story. Oh, so by happenstance my Jedi Knight has to visit just the same planets in the same order as my last character? That takes me personally out of the story.

 

These are all things pretty much mandated by MMO design ( although I am unsure about the recurring NPC's ) which then were coupled with the BioWare moral decisions. While BioWare had the guts to pull together all the different possibilities in Mass Effect 3 ( although the ending totally ruined that otherwise excellent game ), they balked on doing so here.

Edited May 29, 2012 by magnuskn

[Gungan]

I would never trade the heroic story for being jedi knight #1452. You can have your opinion but I disagree with your premise.

 

Truth is, the community doesn't even know what the they want. The vocal minority yells and screams on the forums while the rest of us are "ok" with what Bioware is doing. The game had a huge drop in subs because bioware opened too many damn servers.

 

What? Under the BioWare model, that is exactly what you are. You are Jedi Knight #1452.

 

You all get your lightsaber the same way.

 

You all get the same companions.

 

You all visit the same planets in the same order.

 

You all fight the same villains.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Gungan

[Urael]

I've harped on this since day one- BioWare has made it crystal clear that they either do not understand or do not want a real community. The OP has it spot-on.

 

Without the community, there is no game. MMOs are generally suck rocks in terms of straight gameplay; they really aren't much fun- there are always more engaging and interesting options if you only look at the game itself.

 

It's the people you play with that bring people back over and over, and that critical component is something BioWare ignored and actively worked against since the earliest days of this game.

 

Communities need consistency, a way to communicate (forums), they need personalities to rally around- heroes and villains. How many of you could tell an epic story involving a person or group in a game you played that other people would recognize? If you played EVE, you know of m00, BoB and GHSC, if you were on the Scylla server of SWG you knew who GTF and The Church of Alvis were, and so on... without the framework in which you can have those personalities take the fore, you have essentially nothing but a pretty bad singleplayer game.

 

Unfortunately, even if BioWare had a "Come to $DIETY" moment right now (or even a month ago), I'm afraid it would be too late. The damage has been done and the passionate community members are largely gone or leaving.

 

Wow, just wow, how can you say this. We have had a plethora of communications from EA/BW on how they are listening to us and giving us everthing we want and well just look at the server population screen in the 1.3 video, there are absolutely NO problems.

 

**Sacasim sign for all of those that suffer from Dr. Cooperitis.

[Skidrowbro]

Maybe it's time to use your "imaginations". Maybe start thinking like a kid. You know, pick up a stick, now it's a lightsaber:eek:. The devs do not need to hold our hands and make us all sing and laugh, that is something "we" figure out on our own.

[Bloodstealer]

What? Under the BioWare model, that is exactly what you are. You are Jedi Knight # 1452.

 

You all get your lightsaber the same way.

 

You all get the same companions.

 

You all kill the Emperor.

 

You all hive around the fleet night after night waiting with a host of mimics and dopplegangers with only your lightsabre crystal telling you apart..... except you still feel alone

 

 

 

Fixed that for you

[Gungan]

Fixed that for you

 

Good one.

[Gungan]

Wow, just wow, how can you say this. We have had a plethora of communications from EA/BW on how they are listening to us and giving us everthing we want and well just look at the server population screen in the 1.3 video, there are absolutely NO problems.

 

**Sacasim sign for all of those that suffer from Dr. Cooperitis.

 

BioWare is being nothing but reactive, and have shown zero proactivity.

[GreySix]

Would also like to be a supporting actor to a greater story, vice the focus of said story, but then didn't expect that. The KOTOR games made you a main character, so I assumed this would do the same.

[siegedeluxe]

It doesn't make your money less green but it does make your money less well spent. It was never advertised as a sandbox game and its highly doubtful they are going to move it in that direction.

 

No one is asking them to do radical changes to the game, many are simply asking for more sandbox elements other than the gear chasing that is PvP and Ops.

[Bloodstealer]

BioWare is being nothing but reactive, and have shown zero proactivity.

 

DING! DNG! DING!.... Where's the fIre. where's the fire, I klnow there's a fire someplace......

 

They could be very proactive, but yes I think your right.. to date it's all about the reactive, even 1.3 is merely a reactive impementation to try and cover the widening cracks... I hope it works out and allows them to get back to doing more of that proactive creative thinking so the game can start to look forward again... right now its all fire fighting and band aids... we need more .... well ermm we just need more I think.. more players, more grping, more performance, more interaction, more information, more content, more story, more PVP, more MMO, more ideas, then I think there might be alot more goodwill shown towards the game than what I feel is there at the moment.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[EfHaji]

What? Under the BioWare model, that is exactly what you are. You are Jedi Knight #1452.

 

You all get your lightsaber the same way.

 

You all get the same companions.

 

You all visit the same planets in the same order.

 

You all fight the same villains.

 

lol yea exactly. It feels like a prison. The story takes place in a long narrow tunnel. I quit because this game sucks and it needs to go away. I feel dirty seening the name "star wars" on it. Seriously if this was marketed under another title it would of been just laughed at.

[JohnSkylar]

Maybe it's time to use your "imaginations". Maybe start thinking like a kid. You know, pick up a stick, now it's a lightsaber:eek:. The devs do not need to hold our hands and make us all sing and laugh, that is something "we" figure out on our own.

 

Well, then why bother with SWTOR at all? Why not just join a free SW LARP group and have a blast one or two weekends a month with my stick and no monthly fees?

[Sunstarr]

Well, then why bother with SWTOR at all? Why not just join a free SW LARP group and have a blast one or two weekends a month with my stick and no monthly fees?

 

You need to unlearn what you have learned.

[Mannic]

You need to unlearn what you have learned.

 

Yoda quotes should become the official "Godwin's Law" of this forum. "As a thread on SWTOR.com grows longer, the probably of someone responding to a post with a Yoda quote approaches 1."

 

The moment someone goes to the Yoda card, the thread has ceased to serve any purpose.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Mannic

[Gungan]

You need to unlearn what you have learned.

 

This game more than any made before it tells other players everything they care to know about your character's story.

 

You're a <class>, and every <class> does <event> in their story on <planet>.

 

You may have made up other stuff yourself, but it is not reflected in the game, and that is a legitimate barrier to suspending disbelief for parties involved (not that anything you do in the story is reflected in the game world either).

Edited May 29, 2012 by Gungan

[Costello]

Very much agree with the OP.

 

I'd go even further in that even the story of the Sith Warrior or the Trooper is instantly forgotten and meaningless. I'm the best of the best in the galaxy, who am I kidding turns out the opposing faction is filled with level 50s that I now meaninglessly kill to grind dailies or have to get 7 other people some of who hold the same unique title as me to kill a big bad boss.

 

The story is gone forgotten and all those choices I made had no effect and even winning Corellia for the Imperials turns out to be a day dream cause I come back and its lost though I have no idea how. Some how after talking about story for 3 years Bioware managed to make it so meaningless that I could have spaced through and clicked 1 every time and it would have as much effect as making choices based on the events unfolding around me.

 

I half expect my SW to wake up and find it was all a dream and JR is still alive cause you would be hard pressed to find any part of the story that has had any meaningful effect and it could just as easily been a dream for all the impact its had.