Merc Pyro vs Powertech Pyro

[ForceSeeker]

What is the difference? I am at the point to pick my adv class and was curious what the difference was between the two?

 

Thanks

[Areaz]

pick powertech.

[Henu]

Merc is DPS or Healer and PT is DPS or tank.

 

Much debate about merscs being under power but its a lot of fun when you know how to use it, on the other end there is talk of PT being OP but in saying that they tend to go down a bit quicker.

[Ehlin]

I'm surprised(I shouldn't be) how unhelpful the replies above are.

 

If you're interested in Pyrotech as the tree you want to spec in I recommend Powertech.

The reason being is Powertech's talents work better for Pyrotech. Yes, the Pyrotech tree is shared, but there are difference between the two along with other talents Powertech can get in its other trees that makes it superior.

One example of this would be Powertechs having a 100% chance to proc Combustible Gas Cylinder, thus allowing the use of railshot whenever it's up.

 

If you want to closely examine the difference I suggest pulling up both the Mercenary and Powertech skill trees on torhead.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Ehlin

[BPWyndon]

I play merc, but I suggest you pick PT if you want to use the Pyro spec. They seem to have better combinations for that skill tree, plus having the generator seems more useful then off hand weapon.

[Phrase]

Pick Powertech if you:

1) like mid to close range

2) want ALOT of utility

3) want good synergy with all of your trees

4) want to be a beast in pvp

5) like gadgets

6) have an interest in tanking

 

Pick Merc if you:

1) want to be frustrated

2) want to heal, but for some reason don't want to level an Operative instead

[Gyronamics]

I'm surprised(I shouldn't be) how unhelpful the replies above are.

 

If you're interested in Pyrotech as the tree you want to spec in I recommend Powertech.

The reason being is Powertech's talents work better for Pyrotech. Yes, the Pyrotech tree is shared, but there are difference between the two along with other talents Powertech can get in its other trees that makes it superior.

One example of this would be Powertechs having a 100% chance to proc Combustible Gas Cylinder, thus allowing the use of railshot whenever it's up.

 

If you want to closely examine the difference I suggest pulling up both the Mercenary and Powertech skill trees on torhead.

 

Are you telling me that with a 18 second DoT and a 70% chance on Rapid Shots (and 16% per hit on every other attack) to proc CGC that a merc has to struggle to find a debuff on a target to use railshot?

 

If you're specced as pyro and the target isn't on fire all the time there's something horribly wrong with your attack pattern.

 

Yes, Powertech has a 100% chance to proc CGC but that's not a free attack, you pay 16 heat and also need to be in melee range, sure there's an advantage but you have to pay in heat which you could have used on something else too.

[clearsighted]

Are you telling me that with a 18 second DoT and a 70% chance on Rapid Shots (and 16% per hit on every other attack) to proc CGC that a merc has to struggle to find a debuff on a target to use railshot?

 

If you're specced as pyro and the target isn't on fire all the time there's something horribly wrong with your attack pattern.

 

Yes, Powertech has a 100% chance to proc CGC but that's not a free attack, you pay 16 heat and also need to be in melee range, sure there's an advantage but you have to pay in heat which you could have used on something else too.

 

You are badly underestimating the fact that the Powertech gets its combustion DoT/snare on demand, while the merc often has to spam multiple GCDs of rapid shooting.

 

Combined with rail shot's armor penetration on a PT, and you have a vastly greater potential for burst in the same window, that the merc cannot hope to match.

 

What's the other PT tier 1 talent? an 8% damage boost to rocket punch, their building block attack? Mercs get either 3% accuracy or 4% alacrity instead.

[Sinsavz]

You are badly underestimating the fact that the Powertech gets its combustion DoT/snare on demand, while the merc often has to spam multiple GCDs of rapid shooting.

 

Combined with rail shot's armor penetration on a PT, and you have a vastly greater potential for burst in the same window, that the merc cannot hope to match.

 

What's the other PT tier 1 talent? an 8% damage boost to rocket punch, their building block attack? Mercs get either 3% accuracy or 4% alacrity instead.

 

The 60% extra armor pen on railshot and 6% flat damage boost is indeed huge and cannot be understated.

 

Also combustable gas cylinder doesn't have a 70% chance on rapid shots, does it? I thought it ticks 3 times just like unload, so 48%. I've been chasing someone with like 4 or 5 rapid shots in a row and been unlucky enough to get zero procs which is just awful, flameburst for powertechs is so good and I would love an equal effect on something like missile blast or power shot.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Sinsavz

[Gyronamics]

7 ticks per rapid shots according to parses.

 

16% over 7 shots = 70.49% per use of rapid shots.

 

The game often bundles several shots into one number to display it which is why it often looks like 3 hits.

[_DaGreat]

Pick Powertech if you:

1) like mid to close range

2) want ALOT of utility

3) want good synergy with all of your trees

4) want to be a beast in pvp

5) like gadgets

6) have an interest in tanking

 

Pick Merc if you:

1) want to be frustrated

2) want to heal, but for some reason don't want to level an Operative instead

 

My main is a merc pyro 78 valor. I have been leveling a vanguard assault (basically a PT pyro). The VA is level 25 and I can tell you the for PVP it is an absolute world of difference. On my merc pyro I run around, try to do as much damage as possible and hope that I am not noticed. If I am noticed I make an effort to kite. I can not fight on the nodes, I can not burn down a healer, I can not run with the ball in huttball etc. On the VA I feel that I am contributing so much more in WZs. Fighting on the node, yanking a healers with harpoon and taking him out solo, yanking a potential scorer in huttball into the bottom pit etc. Sadly, VA (PT pyro) just brings so much more to a WZ then a merc pyro.

[Phrase]

The 60% extra armor pen on railshot and 6% flat damage boost is indeed huge and cannot be understated.

 

Also combustable gas cylinder doesn't have a 70% chance on rapid shots, does it? I thought it ticks 3 times just like unload, so 48%. I've been chasing someone with like 4 or 5 rapid shots in a row and been unlucky enough to get zero procs which is just awful, flameburst for powertechs is so good and I would love an equal effect on something like missile blast or power shot.

 

7 ticks per rapid shots according to parses.

 

16% over 7 shots = 70.49% per use of rapid shots.

 

The game often bundles several shots into one number to display it which is why it often looks like 3 hits.

 

Actually the chance to proc from Rapid Shots you list as 70.49% doesn't account for the fact that probability isn't cumulative; each tick is a separate roll. Rapid Shots has a 16% chance to proc on each shot for 7 shots (and that's only for the shots that land), whereas Flameburst is a tech attack that can't be dodged or parried AND has a 100% proc rate for CGC all for only 16 heat and no CD.

 

Our other two chances to proc come from abilities that require us to root ourselves and can be both interrupted and parried/ dodged.

 

I'm hard pressed to see how a Merc comes out on top here.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Phrase

[JuJu]

What is the difference? I am at the point to pick my adv class and was curious what the difference was between the two?

 

Thanks

 

I can only speak to the Merc Pyro build. In short it is broken. Can it be made to work, yes, under very specific circumstances.

 

As a Merc spec'd pyro you can expect:

- NO utility from your build

- little survivability

- to be the ONLY class without an interrupt

- a very unreliable method to kite enemies

- gear that is horribly mis-stated for your build

- inconsistant and underpowered DPS overall

- very limited and unreliable Burst

- No Escapability

- limited to a single group role that can be filled much better by any other class

- bringing almost NO benefit to your group

- you will die A LOT

Edited May 29, 2012 by JuJu

[Gyronamics]

Actually the chance to proc from Rapid Shots you list as 70.49% doesn't account for the fact that probability isn't cumulative; each tick is a separate roll. Rapid Shots has a 16% chance to proc on each shot for 7 shots (and that's only for the shots that land)

 

You don't seem to understand how probability works.

 

This is the odds for CGC to proc ONCE in the following number of hits:

 

1 hit = 16% chance

2 hits = 29.44% chance

3 hits = 40.73% chance

4 hits = 50.21% chance

5 hits = 58.18% chance

6 hits = 64.87% chance

7 hits = 70.49% chance

 

Every hit is 16% to proc CGC so for it to fail 7 times in a row is a 29.51% chance.

 

If your accuracy is so bad you miss shots then you need to recalculate based on how many shots you're likely to hit.

 

I can only speak to the Merc Pyro build. In short it is broken. Can it be made to work, yes, under very specific circumstances.

 

As a Merc spec'd pyro you can expect:

- NO utility from your build

- little survivability

- to be the ONLY class without an interrupt

- a very unreliable method to kite enemies

- gear that is horribly mis-stated for your build

- inconsistant and underpowered DPS overall

- very limited and unreliable Burst

- No Escapability

- limited to a single group role that can be filled much better by any other class

- bringing almost NO benefit to your group

- you will die A LOT

 

Every class has problems but the major problem in that post is the person writing it.

 

Have you played it to a competent level, if so you should be able to discuss what it brings to the table, not biased hating. I'd go through your points saying which is outright lies but that would be far more effort than you put into writing it.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Gyronamics

[Obok]

...

Every class has problems but the major problem in that post is the person writing it.

 

Have you played it to a competent level, if so you should be able to discuss what it brings to the table, not biased hating. I'd go through your points saying which is outright lies but that would be far more effort than you put into writing it.

 

So basically you're telling him to S.T.F.U. without offering any counterarguments...?

 

I have been playing the class myself since the beginning of the early access period (in addition to leveling a Juggernaut and Assassin to 50, and dabbling in other classes, though none of them at max level yet), and I must say I agree with most of what the poster listed.

 

The damage output of a Pyrotech Mercenary is actually not bad in PvE, but our reliance on cast time abilities gimps it in PvP, unless the enemy is careless and allows you to cast freely. Both Power Shot and Unload are easily shut down via excessive amount of stuns / interrupts / knock-backs / knockdowns / incapacitate effects and other utility this game (which most classes have in abundance).

 

As for a Pyrotech Mercenary, our utility is limited to Electro Dart, Jet Boost and Concussion Missile, which are nothing to write home about. Sure, they do help, but they don't do enough in light of the utility most other classes possess, especially since the dive of health pools and overall damage boost to most classes in patch 1.2, which made most classes all too bursty. Strangely enough, not Operatives or Mercenaries though.

 

Do I manage in PvP? Sure, I'm not about to give up on the class just yet.

Would I do better having rolled a Warrior, Inquisitor, Powertech or Sniper at start? You betcha.

What about other classes? They have their problems, but none seem as lacking in utility as a Mercenary at present.

 

And in case this hasn't been stressed enough: we're the only class without an interrupt. Looking at you Georg, your explanation didn't convince this Mercenary.

[JuJu]

 

I've played it since early access, well beta if you count that, and is my main toon. I also have a jugg, tanksin, sorc, and operative. There is nothing the toon I want to play, my main merc pryo, can do that I can't do better on any of my alts while bringin more benefit to the group in the process.

[Dajag]

At level 50 a Powertech Pyro can not run the ball in huttball nor can he fight any better on a node (still quishy)

I am not saying which AC is better just stating some facts (people often confuse low level greatness with level 50 PvP, classes normalize at level 50)

 

I will say this; Powertech pyros do better (Single Target Burst) and get more medals due to taunts.

I think Mercs shine in the AoE department (Arsenal) which is the seldom used tree, brings so much more to group play.

 

Everyone is out for self glory and 1v1 victory they forget the big picture, rated will show which specs are the most vital.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Dajag

[Briggs_Knightly]

As a Merc/Pyro I can definitely say that the CGC proc is NOT 70%.

 

IN FACT, the proc rate need to be increased to help the Merc class out.

AND, the flame burst proc needs changed to hinder the PT class some.

 

The majority of the Merc needs a buff threads and the PT needs a nerf threads are because of this proc rate.

 

For Merc

Raise the base proc for CGC to 15% from 10% (could be anywhere from 15% to 30%)

Raise the SHG bonus to trigger CGC to 3/6/9% from 2/4/6% (could be 4/8/12% or even better 5/10%)

 

For PT

Remove the CGC proc from Flame Burst and instead just give it a 2-4 second slow.

Put it on a 12-20 second timer and it should probably have cost increased to 25 heat.

[Gyronamics]

As a Merc/Pyro I can definitely say that the CGC proc is NOT 70%.

 

Well I'm also a Pyro spec so if you're sure that our default attack isn't a 70% proc then one of us has egg on their face.

 

Lets examine this parse of 15 mins which I spent firing default attack and waiting for the proc to burn out before trying again: http://www.torparse.com/a/45451/1

 

1155 default attack hits = 165 Rapid Shots fired

354 hits from burns = 118 procs of CGC

 

(118/165)x100 = 71.5%

 

So I'll say it again.

 

Default attack has a 70% chance to proc CGC.

 

And yes you can get strings of failed attempts to proc

 

Your chance to fail to proc CGC is:

 

30% in 1 default attack

9% in 2 default attacks

3% in 3 default attacks

1% in 4 default attacks

 

In that 15 mins I had a fair few fails and a few 3 strings, no 4 strings though. Given that I only fired 118 times that's a reasonable outcome.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Gyronamics

[Choffware]

Basically the major flaw in the Merc Pyro tree vs the PT is the rail shot proc requirements. The "spells" that proc the free rail shot on a Merc are channeled spells that need to be fired standing still. I have not run the numbers but I bet that the power tech is doing much more dps between rail shots with Flame Burst and Jet punch than a Merc is with unload and power shot spam.

 

In the case of unload... rail shot seems to proc on the first hit at the beginning of the cast so you have to wait until unload is finished before firing the rail shot... not a huge deal because unload is at least doing damage the whole time you are casting. However in the case of power shot... when it finally fires and procs there is a good chance you already started the next power shot cast... now your doing nothing for 2 seconds unless you are savvy enough to stop the power shot cast and fire rail shot... but also remember to not stop your unload casts.

 

A pt can move while spamming his attacks trying to proc RS doing damage all the while. If the IM or TD needs to be reapplied there is no channeling delay. To me that's the key difference... the merc is simply does not have the proper abilities that allow them to use Rail Shot as affective as the PT.

 

To fix it I would give mercs a talent in the pyro tree that basically changes PS to Flame Burst. Same damage cast time heat cost and rails shot proc rate. So flame burst with the power shot animation. I bet the numbers would be pretty even between the PT and Merc if they did that.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Choffware

[Gyronamics]

However in the case of power shot... when it finally fires and procs there is a good chance you already started the next power shot cast... now your doing nothing for 2 seconds unless you are savvy enough to stop the power shot cast and fire rail shot... but also remember to not stop your unload casts.

 

That makes no sense at all.

 

If you proc a railshot and you've already started casting the next power shot then cast the power shot anyway.

 

For 6 seconds after proccing a railshot you can't proc another one.

 

If the first PS procced then the 6 second lockout is still ticking no matter what you attack with.

[Choffware]

That makes no sense at all.

 

If you proc a railshot and you've already started casting the next power shot then cast the power shot anyway.

 

For 6 seconds after proccing a railshot you can't proc another one.

 

If the first PS procced then the 6 second lockout is still ticking no matter what you attack with.

 

The point is your doing nothing in that time but loading up a power shot. But if unload is down, your forced to use power shot inorder to proc PPA. But during that casting time you leave your self vulnerable to interrupts and knockdowns. While in contrast the PT can fire the rail shot almost instantly and start working on the next proc. The PT doesn't have to think about it much because all the skills involved in the PPA mechanic are instant. I'm willing to bet anything even without interrupts and knock backs (again I don't have the numbers) that PT is getting a PPA proc much more frequently (very close to 6 seconds apart) than a merc in pvp despite the % offset of the talents. And I'm pretty sure the PT is doing much more damage in between because again... his talents are instant and spam-able.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Choffware

[Gyronamics]

Your arguments are the argument between a melee and a caster.

[Choffware]

Your arguments are the argument between a melee and a caster.

 

In a vague sense maybe... PPA mechanic is simply inferior for a Merc vs PT. (at least for pvp) It's much more fluid and reliable for the PT. I'm not saying a melee class is better I'm saying the mechanic designed works better for the melee class in this case. IMO to fix the Merc Pyro tree you need to either change the Merc PPA mechanic or change the casting time of the merc.

[Sookster]

I can only speak to the Merc Pyro build. In short it is broken. Can it be made to work, yes, under very specific circumstances.

 

As a Merc spec'd pyro you can expect:

- NO utility from your build

- little survivability

- to be the ONLY class without an interrupt

- a very unreliable method to kite enemies

- gear that is horribly mis-stated for your build

- inconsistant and underpowered DPS overall

- very limited and unreliable Burst

- No Escapability

- limited to a single group role that can be filled much better by any other class

- bringing almost NO benefit to your group

- you will die A LOT

 

Half of those are wrong, there are still utility- healing, cleansing, an incombat sleep with concussive missile and stealth scan. I find dps consistent enough and if you find kiting difficult then stick to a melee class. And I don't die that often, maybe 5 deaths tops in a wz.

 

Staying mobile is key, unload is the ONLY cast I bother to use, when I use fusion missile I pair it up with sensors override and power surge.