Taunts should be tied to tanking stance

[SinnedWill]

Taunts are amazing in PVP, they are free defensive cds for your allies on short cooldowns.

 

Yes, taunt damage reduction IS amazing - targeted taunt cooldown is 15s (iirc, I'm at work), but I believe AoE taunt CD is 45s (maybe 1m - again, sorry, I'm at work). One person dishing out taunts (AoE and targeted) doesn't have a massive impact on a match, but when a team has 3-4 classes that stagger taunts and work in packs, they will significantly improve their teams survivability and outrageously hinder the other team's dps (doesn't hurt that this occurs from better players of classes with taunts are DPS specced or tankassin, even - capable of dishing out similar DPS to the big DPS-only classes). I play a pyro powertech, tankassin, carnage marauder, marksman sniper, and madness sorc. Usually get ~100k protection alone as p-tech/tankassin without ever using guard - these classes work best when paired/packed with other classes that have taunts - staggering targeted taunts and using AoE taunts every cooldown causes a pair/pack to easily have a huge advantage in every situation against targets that don't have taunts of their own (rarely lose a single teammate in an even numbered skirmish - hell, 2-3 of us can easily take out groups of 4, with few exceptions).

[Xsorus]

A full set of what exactly? I'm a couple pieces from a full set of augmented War Hero gear but I don't see how that's relevant anyway.

 

Let's examine the hypothetical match-up you described. Even if I did half as much damage as the DPS did (which is being generous), it wouldn't matter because guard alone would split his damage in half, putting us at equal footing. Then factor in taunts, and the fact that guard also reduces damage and I could easily challenge the DPS. Unless of course he's attacking me, in which case I wouldn't be surprised if my healer could heal entirely through it. If the DPS has a taunt, that could be enough to give him the edge. Which brings us back to the actual topic at hand, that the viability of tanks is hampered by the fact that any tank capable class has no restriction on their ability to taunt.

 

A. You'd die along with the healer you're guarding, because I can put out more DPS then your healer can heal you both for.

 

B. Not only would you die, you'd not come close to doing any damage what so ever to actually be a threat to either the Healer or Me as the DPS. In fact your damage would be so piss poor, the Healer himself could DPS as well and we'd be fine.

[Astarica]

The damage prevented by just taunt is generally comparable to say a Marauder's self heals through bleed. I think this seems reasonably balanced since those two serve different goals (one helps yourself and one helps someone else). At least compared to a Marauder, the utility of taunt seems to be comparable to the various abilities Marauder get. The Tanksin has far too much utility and DPS together, but for Jugg/PT I think it's balanced.

 

Likewise some pure DPS spec might lack utility but they could be improved on their utility, assuming that Marauder is supposed to be a model of what pure DPS can do.

[Ahhmyface]

News Flash: classes with similar dps to marauder/sentinel and sniper/gunslinger: assassins/shadows (pretty much all 3 specs), juggs/guardians (rage spec), powertech/vanguard (pyro spec - though AP spec can be nasty, its cycle time is longer).

 

If you think assassins and juggs deal as much damage as a sniper or marauder you're delusional. Pyrotechs are pretty nasty, but their taunts are just icing on the cake. That's a whole different debate.

 

The fact is that utility classes deal less dps. You can argue how much utlity should be traded for how much damage, but let's not pretend like taunts have been ignored during balancing.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Gren-Aluren]

"We should ruin the fun in this game" -- Is basically what you are saying. Let's make all the classes 2-dimensional and not fun to play at all. There is obvious balance to this as 3 Adv. Classes can taunt and 3 Adv. Classes can heal. You would break the unique DPS/Heal or DPS/Tank system they have going. Edited May 28, 2012 by Gren-Aluren

[lordkhouri]

As a focus guardian, I have to compare my class to focus sentinels.

 

If you take away my taunts, I'm pretty useless overall compared to a sentinel.

Take away my taunts, but buff my dps and sure it'll work. But let's be honest here, does anyone think vanguard, guardian or shadow dps needs a buff?? No, at least not guardian or vanguard.

 

Leave the taunts or else no one will use guardian over sentinel in any situation.

[Cappadin]

yeah, limit taunts to tank stance, then you must buff dps specs of guardians,vanguards, and shadows to be on par with sentinels... does anyone want that?

[VbNAsrikk]

I believe that the Game City of Heroes has had the most effective way of tanking ... you are the most bulky whereas on my Gunslinger im tired of having to go through my entire cooldown just to **** a damned clothie Edited May 28, 2012 by VbNAsrikk

[BacklashEH]

Make them require ammo outside of tank stance

[SinnedWill]

If you think assassins and juggs deal as much damage as a sniper or marauder you're delusional. Pyrotechs are pretty nasty, but their taunts are just icing on the cake. That's a whole different debate.

 

The fact is that utility classes deal less dps. You can argue how much utlity should be traded for how much damage, but let's not pretend like taunts have been ignored during balancing.

 

Rage jugg > rage marauder always (and will out-dps marauders in any match that has a lot of clustering -regardless of the marauder's spec- mostly voidstar, but not always exclusive to voidstar). Vengeance jugg hasn't been played by anyone very good on my server, but I've seen a couple of them able to dominate - yes their damage is lower, but they can do some nasty things and their damage adds up quickly.

Assassins (all 3 specs can dish out just as much dps as mara/sent): Tank specs (mostly single-target burst damage, but procc/resource dependant - their metrics come from timely bursts of proc-based damage combined with their sustained life-spans); Middle-spec (HUGE single-target burst damage -almost perfectly on par with mara burst- combined with stun-locks, it's very effective - reminds me of lethality ops with slightly less opening burst dps, but doesn't lack the sustained dps the ops lost with 1.2 - squishy, but when used correctly, they kill and re-cloak before they get focused); Right tree spec (best against multiple opponents due to strong AoE + DoT spam capability, but certainly isn't lacking in burst with full stacks from talents running - squishiest assassin spec, IMO, due to to resource management-they can't DoT as many targets for self-healing as easily as a madness sorc. can early on and their targets typically die too quickly for their long-duration DoT's to run full-term - this spec can light up damage charts or end up with very little total damage - depends on the make-up of the enemy team and warzone location, usually).

[lordkhouri]

Rage jugg > rage marauder always (and will out-dps marauders in any match that has a lot of clustering -regardless of the marauder's spec- mostly voidstar, but not always exclusive to voidstar). Vengeance jugg hasn't been played by anyone very good on my server, but I've seen a couple of them able to dominate - yes their damage is lower, but they can do some nasty things and their damage adds up quickly.

 

Ok... I must ask... What makes a rage jugg or focus guardian better than their marauder or sentinel counterparts??

 

I'm actually curious to know what edge I have over a sentinel. Admittedly I usually do most warzone damage only behind dps vanguards sometimes.

[Ahhmyface]

Rage jugg > rage marauder always (and will out-dps marauders in any match that has a lot of clustering -regardless of the marauder's spec- mostly voidstar, but not always exclusive to voidstar). Vengeance jugg hasn't been played by anyone very good on my server, but I've seen a couple of them able to dominate - yes their damage is lower, but they can do some nasty things and their damage adds up quickly.

Assassins (all 3 specs can dish out just as much dps as mara/sent): Tank specs (mostly single-target burst damage, but procc/resource dependant - their metrics come from timely bursts of proc-based damage combined with their sustained life-spans); Middle-spec (HUGE single-target burst damage -almost perfectly on par with mara burst- combined with stun-locks, it's very effective - reminds me of lethality ops with slightly less opening burst dps, but doesn't lack the sustained dps the ops lost with 1.2 - squishy, but when used correctly, they kill and re-cloak before they get focused); Right tree spec (best against multiple opponents due to strong AoE + DoT spam capability, but certainly isn't lacking in burst with full stacks from talents running - squishiest assassin spec, IMO, due to to resource management-they can't DoT as many targets for self-healing as easily as a madness sorc. can early on and their targets typically die too quickly for their long-duration DoT's to run full-term - this spec can light up damage charts or end up with very little total damage - depends on the make-up of the enemy team and warzone location, usually).

 

Assassins do not do marauder damage unless you're only counting small burst windows. Deception (yes, I am one of them) can do marauder damage for about 4-5 attacks, not including buildup time, and then they are out of force. Your re-stealth comment leads me to believe you are not as familiar with the class as you would have us believe. Stealth is broken. Have you ever even been in a warzone? Honestly, I have better things to do that debate your imaginary game world, but I am at least relieved that only the uninformed believe that taunts are out of whack.

 

I don't think you realize how ridiculous you sound saying a deception sin (widely acknowledged as an underpowered spec) needs his taunt removed.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[SinnedWill]

Ok... I must ask... What makes a rage jugg or focus guardian better than their marauder or sentinel counterparts??

 

I'm actually curious to know what edge I have over a sentinel. Admittedly I usually do most warzone damage only behind dps vanguards sometimes.

 

Charge+Push+Charge for isolating - squishier than a rage mara, yes, but with proper execution of intercede and charge-push-charge you have great escape options - you can also guarantee more shockwave stacks against players like sorcerers/sages that would normally just purge force crush by using charge-push-charge (furthermore, push causing charge to reset grants more viability for guaranteed smash crits). You lack the bubble and cloak of pain which maras have over you (though you gain endure pain, which is typically better in small skirmish situations over undying rage - but Undying Rage will take the cake in group pvp - if the enemy team actually lets a marauder use undying rage before they focus him dead, that is - which doesn't happen ever anymore when I pvp) and furthermore (though I'm not entirely certain 1.2 addressed this, I haven't specced rage on my marauder for a while), but Jugg/Guardians could get more smash damage bonus from talents compared to rage maras (toss in improved charge/leap effects that would guarantee a smash to land before an enemey escapes - also not sure if this was changed with 1.2).

Edited May 29, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Dencre]

no....just no

[_Zorth_]

Then healing should be tied to healing stance..

[TonyDragonflame]

LOL you're awful, man. Try having a group of P-tech/VG's and Assassins/shadows and or Guardians/Juggs and always have 2-3 of them together. Each has a targeted taunt (short cooldown) and an AoE taunt (45s cooldown IIRC, I'm at work). Watch what happens when you normally put up 400-500k damage when you're in a warzone where you're perma-taunted - you're lucky if you can break 200k significantly. Also, the damage reduction (for anyone in expertise gear) comes out to be more than 30% - I have a feeling that taunts are reducing the base damage of your abilitie before expertise is applied (thus, expertise is giving you a less significant increase) - I notice that my marauder's damage outputs is ~45-55% of normal when a taunt is on me (depends on the base damage of the ability I'm using).

Assassins/Shadows are the deadliest pack-runners due to their burst dps and both can taunt the target (so neither is vulnerable to full damage) and if they happen to be tank-specced, they can stack 5% damage debuffs (x2) with the taunt damage debuff - yeah it gets significant. Every good player is AoE taunting every CD and target-taunting a big dpser every CD. Has a HUGE impact on games - particularly when they're DPS specced (Guardians/Juggs though not bad at dps as dps specs, I just find they tend to take back-seats to DPS p-techs/VG's, and assassins/shadows of all specs - except rage specs in WZ's with clustering).

 

Dont talk me fairy tales and dont troll me.

 

There is no time for taunts in PVP fight - there is no bosses, and no aggro, and only 6-sec duraction of -30% damage causes one around can do only 1-2 strikes for only 1-3 enemies around (because they run fast for that 6 sec) - and any crit rating much more important in that case.

 

I dont see any effect of taunts in PVP, I play my guardian a lot. There is not theorycraft like you write - there is practice.

 

So, you are just theorytroll

Edited May 28, 2012 by TonyDragonflame

[SinnedWill]

Assassins do not do marauder damage unless you're only counting small burst windows. Deception (yes, I am one of them) can do marauder damage for about 4-5 attacks, not including buildup time, and then they are out of force. Your re-stealth comment leads me to believe you are not as familiar with the class as you would have us believe. Stealth is broken. Have you ever even been in a warzone? Honestly, I have better things to do that debate your imaginary game world, but I am at least relieved that only the uninformed believe that taunts are out of whack.

 

I don't think you realize how ridiculous you sound saying a deception sin (widely acknowledged as an underpowered spec) needs his taunt removed.

 

Deception sins shine with expertise - so gear up. Yes, it's resource dependant for best effect, but you can use black-out for the force regen rate bonus for those prolonged sustained dps situations. You forget that marauders also need buildup times for rage (opening with charge is the easiest way to get countered for marauders - but it works out sometimes for annihilation). Voltaic slash's shock improving stacks cause a great finisher (if not finisher, it usually drops your target's health enough for an assassinate. With relic/adrenal, you should rock most people before they can retaliate at all (expertise has the most significant impact on this assassin spec - and if you're running paired up with another deception assassin, the two of you mow down small groups more quickly/efficiently than 2 marauders - taunts are icing on the cake for deception sins - yes I stole that from you're opinion of pyro p-techs).

[Lymain]

yeah, limit taunts to tank stance, then you must buff dps specs of guardians,vanguards, and shadows to be on par with sentinels... does anyone want that?

 

It's not even that...DPSers taunting is their utility. It's like Predation/Bloodthirst/GroupHoTs for Marauders.

[Xsorus]

LOL you're awful, man. Try having a group of P-tech/VG's and Assassins/shadows and or Guardians/Juggs and always have 2-3 of them together. Each has a targeted taunt (short cooldown) and an AoE taunt (45s cooldown IIRC, I'm at work). Watch what happens when you normally put up 400-500k damage when you're in a warzone where you're perma-taunted - you're lucky if you can break 200k significantly. Also, the damage reduction (for anyone in expertise gear) comes out to be more than 30% - I have a feeling that taunts are reducing the base damage of your abilitie before expertise is applied (thus, expertise is giving you a less significant increase) - I notice that my marauder's damage outputs is ~45-55% of normal when a taunt is on me (depends on the base damage of the ability I'm using).

Assassins/Shadows are the deadliest pack-runners due to their burst dps and both can taunt the target (so neither is vulnerable to full damage) and if they happen to be tank-specced, they can stack 5% damage debuffs (x2) with the taunt damage debuff - yeah it gets significant. Every good player is AoE taunting every CD and target-taunting a big dpser every CD. Has a HUGE impact on games - particularly when they're DPS specced (Guardians/Juggs though not bad at dps as dps specs, I just find they tend to take back-seats to DPS p-techs/VG's, and assassins/shadows of all specs - except rage specs in WZ's with clustering).

 

If you have 2-3 PT's in your Warfront, it's not Taunt that's killing your damage, it's the fact they're steam rolling over you.

 

We run 4 Man PT Pyro tech groups in the guild I'm in.... lets just say you don't need healers when you have that.

[CaptainObvious]

FACT: A pure dps assassin with a 0/1/40 madness skill spread and all gear maxed out for damage output (as opposed to, say tanking), has two taunts, the SAME two taunts that their antithesis of the same adv class has (i.e. 40/1/0 darkness spec, with gear maxed out for survivability). Not only that, but these two abilities have the EXACT same cooldowns and EXACT same strength for both hypothetical characters. Anyone else see the problem here?

 

Taunts should NOT be forbidden to anyone but tanks. Takes away the dynamics and the potential for hybrids.

 

But taunting IS a skill EXCLUSIVELY used by tanks in the pve world, barring rare exceptions and assuming normal intelligence. In other words, it's a tanking skill. Why is a pure dps specced player identically effective as a tank when taunting? In pvp, HALF the effectiveness of a taunt is completely erased anyway, because humans can think for themselves who to target. That's a major blow to the tank's usefulness right off the bat.

 

But now you're saying ANYONE who's my advanced class is just as good at taunting as I (the tank in this scenario)? So while I'm being a tank and taunting you (the dps master), you're taunting me, essentially making me useless against 7/8 ths of your team, and taking a huge chunk off my already low damage output. Sure, my taunt lowered your damage, but your damage is so high you can still do your job with only mildly increased difficulty than before, everything else being equal.

 

The point is, tanks already don't stand out in pvp as tanks. Healers are obvious, and easy to spot. Everyone else is dps... the "tanks" are just bad dps that can take maybe 2 or 3 more hits.

 

Perhaps this imbalace can be mitigated by nerfing taunts in non-tanking stances/specs, while still preserving the ability to use them at all.

 

Also, I think many people are forgetting that taunts don't limit the damage done to the one doing the taunt, lol.

[vimm]

Spamming taunts, you really won't prevent much actual damage total, without guarding as well. 30% for 6 seconds is nice if timed properly, but look at the total damage they actually protect for after the warzone. I would actually like guard to be available to DPS stances as well; if I want to sacrifice myself, let me!

[vimm]

FACT: A pure dps assassin with a 0/1/40 madness skill spread and all gear maxed out for damage output (as opposed to, say tanking), has two taunts, the SAME two taunts that their antithesis of the same adv class has (i.e. 40/1/0 darkness spec, with gear maxed out for survivability). Not only that, but these two abilities have the EXACT same cooldowns and EXACT same strength for both hypothetical characters. Anyone else see the problem here?

 

Taunts should NOT be forbidden to anyone but tanks. Takes away the dynamics and the potential for hybrids.

 

But taunting IS a skill EXCLUSIVELY used by tanks in the pve world, barring rare exceptions and assuming normal intelligence. In other words, it's a tanking skill. Why is a pure dps specced player identically effective as a tank when taunting? In pvp, HALF the effectiveness of a taunt is completely erased anyway, because humans can think for themselves who to target. That's a major blow to the tank's usefulness right off the bat.

 

But now you're saying ANYONE who's my advanced class is just as good at taunting as I (the tank in this scenario)? So while I'm being a tank and taunting you (the dps master), you're taunting me, essentially making me useless against 7/8 ths of your team, and taking a huge chunk off my already low damage output. Sure, my taunt lowered your damage, but your damage is so high you can still do your job with only mildly increased difficulty than before, everything else being equal.

 

The point is, tanks already don't stand out in pvp as tanks. Healers are obvious, and easy to spot. Everyone else is dps... the "tanks" are just bad dps that can take maybe 2 or 3 more hits.

 

Perhaps this imbalace can be mitigated by nerfing taunts in non-tanking stances/specs, while still preserving the ability to use them at all.

 

Also, I think many people are forgetting that taunts don't limit the damage done to the one doing the taunt, lol.

 

"Tanks are just bad dps that can take 2 or 3 more hits"

 

Yeah, you're not clueless.

[Sabredance]

I would actually like guard to be available to DPS stances as well; if I want to sacrifice myself, let me!

 

I like that.

[SajPl]

If you have 2-3 PT's in your Warfront, it's not Taunt that's killing your damage, it's the fact they're steam rolling over you.

 

We run 4 Man PT Pyro tech groups in the guild I'm in.... lets just say you don't need healers when you have that.

 

You die so fast there would be no point healing you anyway ?

[TheronFett]

taunts can be tied to tanking stance when tanks are actually able to be tanks in this game. Until they can mitigate all forms of damage effectively and get some serious use from their shields, tanks are pointless in pvp. The only thing they can do is take damage away from another target, but then they get torn down fast and hard without heals. They are no more resilient to half the damage in this game than any other class. So taunts can be tied to tanking stance, when tanks can effectively tank and survive a good deal of incoming damage (at which point, their damage output should also be quite weak).

 

qft!!!!!