Daniel Erickson thinks X-Server LFG is last resort

[TonyIommi]

Daniel Erickson, Lead Game Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic, in an interview:

 

 

How can a multi-million Star Wars online multiplayer game have a lead designer that is this clueless about running a successful MMO service?

 

 

He's not clueless they just have a different philosophy about the whole thing. It's fine, different strokes for different folks. Their are benefits to the way Bioware is doing things, the biggest of which is that it's forced them to ADDRESS the actual reason people can't get groups in alot of cases. That is poor server population distribution. Blizzard ignored this and instead created a band aid solution (as they do in many many many other cases) but creating cross realm grouping.

[MasterKayote]

Well said. This is exactly why I unsubbed this week. Despite the majority of their community asking for a cross-server LFG tool, EA would rather nickle and dime us charging for character transfers after the first. That is the ONLY reason they went single-server! This is exactly why EA was voted "Worst Company in America": http://consumerist.com/2012/04/congratulations-ea-you-are-the-worst-company-in-america-for-2012.html

 

When single-server flops and they finally go cross-server I will probably return... but then again... with a Lead Game Designer showing this level of ignorance I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same thing as SOE did with SWG, going down pridefully with their sinking ship refusing to the bitter end to comply with their customers' feedback. It's sad really, were it not for this horrible decision I likely would have kept my subscription for atleast a few more years. I expected more from Bioware, now I know better...

 

lol, even without the tool its easy as hell to get groups going in the destination servers now. I can only imagine itll be even better when 1.3 comes out. I for one hope that neither you or the cross server ever come to this game ... neither are needed.

 

Also, news flash, this xserver v. same-server issue is not as one sided as youre making it out to be. They ARE listening to customer feedback, in fact, theyve pretty much repeated the concerns we have with the reasons for not going cross server.

[Aelflaed]

No.

 

I don't want any more XServer that's what ruined WoW, and that's why he is saying this. To try to make this casual MMO keep a core audience that doesn't want XServer play.

 

Cross server just means I'll end up leaving and my friends will leave as we look for the next game that doesn't ruin the community.

 

QFT! I know a lot of people liked WoW's x-server, but it ruined the game for me. People weren't great before - they were AWFUL after, & their behavior became contagious. MMOs should be about the community of people & x-server ruins that. People either didn't speak, or were unspeakably rude. If you got a good group, they'd beg you to keep going because it was so rare to find nice people. I hope they never consider this. Better to merge us into one big server first.

[VulcanLogic]

X-server PvP is the only thing that will keep this game alive. I logged into the PTS today to try and help test rated warzones. With 7 people on the fleet, including myself, and no rated warzones in progress, it was rather difficult to help out. I fear this will be the case with same server rated warzones. Even in the best case scenario I can see, you're going to have a small pool of maybe 40-48 people queuing, and I'm being generous here. That isn't remotely enough of a sample size for an ELO type rating system. The game will have to match the top 8 with the bottom 8 too often, or one of those two groups won't ever have a match pop.

[Blackardin]

Daniel Erickson, Lead Game Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic, in an interview:

 

 

How can a multi-million Star Wars online multiplayer game have a lead designer that is this clueless about running a successful MMO service?

 

Here's a clue, Daniel: I am not looking for some 'last resorts' in your service product. I want the convenience to play with millions of strangers, anonymously over the Internet, with the convenience of pressing a button and the magic happening.

 

This is why

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Teefal View Post

Loving the influx of new players on Jung Ma this last week, and am already getting to know many of them. We've had three planned server events (a guild summit, a dueling match, a multi-planet world PVP event). Along with seeing many names I recognize, I'm getting to know new people (and new guilds) as well.

 

Just my opinion, but the only way to build community is to get to know each other. The only way to do this is to see each other in PVP, in events, around fleet, and in FPs and Ops. Oh, and the forums too. Server forums are likewise key.

 

If instead I was PVP'ing with random people from other servers, this would be much harder. There'd be little chance of seeing them around again. Also, I've witnessed about a half dozen instances of a new player being mean to others (usually in PVP matches), with other players saying its' not appropriate, etc.

 

Being on the same server, such player-regulated remarks and inevitable ignoring really do make a difference, especially on a matureish server like Jung Ma. Having random trash-talkers from random servers pop in and sully things while PVPing or group finding would suck, especially on a server like Jung Ma.

 

Just my 2 cents ... Thank You Bioware for sticking to your principles and not caving to cross-server LFG'ing.

 

 

[Wikar]

No.

 

I don't want any more XServer that's what ruined WoW, and that's why he is saying this. To try to make this casual MMO keep a core audience that doesn't want XServer play.

 

Cross server just means I'll end up leaving and my friends will leave as we look for the next game that doesn't ruin the community.

This is quite easy to satisfy both type of customers, just add checkbox in LFG tool "queue cross-server".

But i do know 99% players will CHECK this option always. And your 1%, sect of "cross-server LFG ruined my WoW-experience", probaly will never pop flashpoint\operation group in SWTOR

This means you are minority of minority.

 

What i do understand is that they have not talent to implement cross-server LFG tool, which is quite shame.

[Skidrowbro]

What i do understand is that they have not talent to implement cross-server LFG tool, which is quite shame.

 

Are you really that ignorant about it? It has nothing to do with talent, it has everything to do for the fact that Bioware itself does not want it.

[TonyIommi]

What i do understand is that they have not talent to implement cross-server LFG tool, which is quite shame.

 

hahahah that's the best. People who have no idea what they're talking about claiming that others who do have no clue

[Suzina]

Once upon a time there was a PuG of 3 folks and a sorc with about 6 levels higher than the FP they were running.

 

Having run through the Halls of Doom, our brave heroes, feeling heroic and all, slay the first Boss... at which point the sorc rolls need on "gear for companion, because I am, what? Like 30% of your firepower?"

 

You can see the moral fiber right there, on a eye-to-eye basis, with the opportunity to boot his sorry *** and get a more polite player.

 

Multiply by 5000 and add 500.000 ... no thanks... at least I can name and shame the jerk in this current setup, so everybody can boot him and he`s stuck at manual LFG in general.

 

This!

 

I hope there is NEVER a cross-server LFG.

 

If you've tried both, you should have picked up on why cross-server destroys the community. I play MMOs to play with people, not trolls. I've tried the MMO with the cross-server dungeons. No thank you!

[Suzina]

This is quite easy to satisfy both type of customers, just add checkbox in LFG tool "queue cross-server".

But i do know 99% players will CHECK this option always. And your 1%, sect of "cross-server LFG ruined my WoW-experience", probaly will never pop flashpoint\operation group in SWTOR

This means you are minority of minority.

 

What i do understand is that they have not talent to implement cross-server LFG tool, which is quite shame.

 

It isn't 1% who want same-server only LFG tool. Check the poll from a few months ago that was on the front page of general for weeks! The majority said NO to cross-server LFG consistently.

 

Here's how it works:

1. The player always does his/her best to get loot as fast as possible.

2. Cross-server PVE offers it faster if you que and play nice. Same server is slower, so everyone goes cross-server.

3. Cross-server ninja looting offers loot even faster, and there are no consequences.

4. You don't need to be nice anymore, you'll never see these people again. So you are trolled, or you troll. usually both.

5. Your guild-mates all have lockouts for all bosses because they pugged them on reset day, the only day you can get ops done anymore (just like Tol Barad in wow).

6. Flashpoints which reset daily are always available, but they are full of vile people, so the only way to do them and have a pleasant time with decent people is to advertise in general or in your gulid until you get 4 people together.

7. Unsubscribe.

[Wikar]

Are you really that ignorant about it? It has nothing to do with talent, it has everything to do for the fact that Bioware itself does not want it.

http://www.swtor.com/blog/guide-group-finder

 

"One of the questions that we get asked a lot is whether or not the Group Finder will eventually be cross-server – i.e. allow you to form groups with players on any server. The answer, at least for this version of the Group Finder, is no. This is for a number of reasons. For one, we wanted to get the Group Finder live as quickly as possible. Making the queuing system work cross-server would have added significant developmental complexity to the tool, which would have taken us longer to get this feature into your hands."

 

Maybe you are aggroing on the word "talent", but this is what i use as a software developer myself

BW already stated at the beginning that a cross-server LFG tool is too complicated for them to launch in 1.3, and only after this they start talking to a "philosophical question" about community, bad relationships in cross-server etc.

[Wikar]

It isn't 1% who want same-server only LFG tool. Check the poll from a few months ago that was on the front page of general for weeks! The majority said NO to cross-server LFG consistently.

 

I know there was a poll about this (did't find it for now), but i never believe in any polls with even 10 000 participants, in a game with more than 1mil people involved. Such a polls just show how the people "who read and post on forum" react on LFG toll, not reaction of "people who play the game".

 

There is many reasons behind, but the fact - if there will be "cross-server" functionality as an option - almost noone will use "same-server" lfg tool.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Wikar

[fptackle]

I've played cross server. I've played without. As a night shift worker who has found that quite a few times I simply could not raid because there were insufficient numbers during my non-peak hours, I've always found a better experience in having Cross Server Queues.

 

Yes, it breeds an environment where people are a bit more inherantly selfish. That random PUG from another server will likely never be in your group again, while the random Tank you picked up on the Republic Fleet might be playing around this time of night next Friday too, and become a halfway regular acquaintance you can work with. You can /friend people who play well and talk to them again in the future, instead of getting thrown into another batch of strangers every time. There's less "risk" of word getting back to other members of your Guild when your Guild is just another random name from a random server, instead of a well known group of players with an easily identifiable leader as a member of the community. Zod knows I've booted people from League before based on actions they committed while in PUGs.

 

Yes, the cross server queues will always produce inferior results to a locally built static group. But that's not what the competition is here. Before I ever tap that LFG tool, I'm going to look at my friends list, my guild list, and see if I can put together my run out of players I know and enjoy working with. That's what social players do. We turn to our friends first, then we PUG when there's no alternative.

 

What Cross Server Queues introduces is the option to alieviate that. When your friends are all offline, when you're the only one around in the Guild, when you have to choose between "run with strangers" or "stuck playing solo", cross server queues makes "run with strangers" always an option. Have you tried to build a raid before at 8am on a Tuesday Morning because that's your day off for the week? Even of the players who are online, most of them are not interested because they either ran it last night after reset, or they have plans on running it later today with their mates. All too often, not just in SWTOR but all MMOs, I've found that I'm stuck with "can't play at all" unless we draw from the absolute largest pool possible.

 

Cross Server Queues are a good thing. They're the safety net, the last ditch effort, when it's that or nothing. They will never replace the Guild or Friend groups; but really, if you're desparate enough to use them, they don't hurt. I've got just as many nightmare PUG stories from my own server as I've ever gotten with a Cross Server option.

[Mallorik]

It isn't 1% who want same-server only LFG tool. Check the poll from a few months ago that was on the front page of general for weeks! The majority said NO to cross-server LFG consistently.

 

Here's how it works:

1. The player always does his/her best to get loot as fast as possible.

2. Cross-server PVE offers it faster if you que and play nice. Same server is slower, so everyone goes cross-server.

3. Cross-server ninja looting offers loot even faster, and there are no consequences.

4. You don't need to be nice anymore, you'll never see these people again. So you are trolled, or you troll. usually both.

5. Your guild-mates all have lockouts for all bosses because they pugged them on reset day, the only day you can get ops done anymore (just like Tol Barad in wow).

6. Flashpoints which reset daily are always available, but they are full of vile people, so the only way to do them and have a pleasant time with decent people is to advertise in general or in your gulid until you get 4 people together.

7. Unsubscribe.

 

All 7 of your points can be and have been disproven many many times, you are just one of those people who love to make other people do what you want to do, if you werent you would realize that your whole post is total bs because YOU DONT HAVE TO USE A CROSS SERVER LFG TOOL.

 

You can complain "well then it will take too long to get a group without one because everyone will use the lfg tool" WHO CARES. If you cared then you would be concerned that a same server lfg tool will have very slow ques. If you dont mind slow ques make your own freakin groups.

 

You can whine "people will ninja loot because they have no accountability" Total bs, there is no accountability right now, have you seen what happens to people who accuse others of being ninja looters in general chat in this game or Wow? good luck with that. besides bw doesnt even acknowledge that ninja looting is even possible in swtor.

 

These anti x-server people are just getting annoying now. Have any of you logged into the fleets of the new full servers? have you seen the bs spewed in chat non stop all day and all night long? You literly cannot spend more than 5 minutes on fleet without seeing people fighting about something, calling eachother names or even worse.

 

That is the great community you think you are protecting. x-server doesnt ruin communities, A-holes ruin communities and like it or not alot more people play mmos than did during eq1 or vanilla wow, and ALOT of those people are A-holes. Wow was ruined by the popularity of mmos not by x-server lfg tools.

 

I respect other peoples opinions most of the time and let people think what they want, but when these people start belowing this nonsense that is hurting this game i get mad. You people think youre the majority? Where on earth do you get that stupid idea? trolls posting on a game forum? Why dont we look at sub numbers, it doesnt matter, you can look at what happened to this games numbers or just compare it to games with x-server lfg tools, either way you are the miniscule mionority.

 

You think that normal people who played this game were watching these forums when those idiots spammed the site with anti x-server bs? They did it in beta too and i never thought to look, i never in my wildest dreams thought a game dev would be ignorant enough to just dismiss x-server tech, well they did and the anti lfg tools got their wishes and the game just about died.

 

If a same server lfg tool works well enough to get the majority of the players into groups fast enough then good for them, if it backfires and it cant then we can all thank you people who spammed this forum for the failure.

[TonyIommi]

http://www.swtor.com/blog/guide-group-finder

 

"One of the questions that we get asked a lot is whether or not the Group Finder will eventually be cross-server – i.e. allow you to form groups with players on any server. The answer, at least for this version of the Group Finder, is no. This is for a number of reasons. For one, we wanted to get the Group Finder live as quickly as possible. Making the queuing system work cross-server would have added significant developmental complexity to the tool, which would have taken us longer to get this feature into your hands."

 

Maybe you are aggroing on the word "talent", but this is what i use as a software developer myself

BW already stated at the beginning that a cross-server LFG tool is too complicated for them to launch in 1.3, and only after this they start talking to a "philosophical question" about community, bad relationships in cross-server etc.

 

That doesn't mean they lack the talent or ability to do it. It just means it takes longer to implement which should be obvious. If anything the fact that they know what kind of a task would be ahead of them should give you evidence of their compotence.

[CaptRavenous]

I don't play PvP much, or raids. Don't really care.

 

HOWEVER.............

 

I have to agree, a lot of MMOs these days do have X-server PvP and Group Missions.

 

Its a must have for any MMO that wishes to keep their PvP/Co-op players.

 

If Bioware thinks they can do fine just on PvE, I would have to disagree.

 

Bioware dropped the ball on PvP, it suxs. I won't play it, simply because I can't choose what BG I can play on, or because I have to run in groups that are mixed Republic/Imperial teams. Stupidest idea for PvP ever.

 

Bioware, I know you guys like to come across as being smart, but some of the things you put in game, such as PvP, Space Missions, and lack of X-server grouping shows you did not do proper research into making your MMO.

 

You pretending that these game aspects are just fine the way they are, shows lack of intelligence and skillful employees working on this game.

 

Time to put up, or shut up.

[Devlonir]

Do not hate the situation untill you've tried it.

 

Seeing how the PVP queues improved enormously after the server transfers, I would say same server FP queueing might be just as good.

 

Don't forget that all X-server adds is a bigger pool of people. If the same server pool of people in TOR is as big as say, the pool of people in a WoW battlegroup, why would you add X-server anyway? And it seems this is the direction Bioware is going.

 

All X-server adds is more people. Why put precious development time into that when you are also busy making sure single server situations will have the same amount of people as current WoW battlegroups have.

 

I mean, have you tried X-server queueing as a single DPS in WoW lately? That takes forever as well, always has actually.

 

Now, as soon as single server queues will suck despite server transfers, that is a time to complain and ask for X-server. But if the queues work in destination servers, than Bioware's plan worked and all the people that demanded X-server are prooven wrong.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Devlonir

[Wikar]

That doesn't mean they lack the talent or ability to do it. It just means it takes longer to implement which should be obvious. If anything the fact that they know what kind of a task would be ahead of them should give you evidence of their compotence.

If you are not able to do something big and good in a short time - it's a definately lack of talent in developing. Honestly, we are not asking to find cancer cure, or made nuclear bomb, this is "LFG tool patch" and already like month or two in develope phase?

 

Well, a talented team can do this in less than a week i think + one week for a testing and polishing.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Wikar

[Devlonir]

If you are not able to do something big and good in a short time - it's a definately lack of talent in developing. Honestly, we are not asking to develope cancer cure, or made nuclear bomb, this is a "lfg patch" and already like month or two in develope phase?

 

Well, a talented team can do this in less than a week i think + one week for a testing and polishing.

And the last line made you loose all credibility on your claim to be a real developer.

A complicated network related change where you want to ensure no loss in performance while the system you are developing it for is also itself still in a much evolving state (also network performance wise), while you need to ensure ongoing service for a multi-million dollar a month operation cannot be developed and tested to perfection in two weeks time. This has nothing to do with talent, or with the size of the development team.

 

The best things take the longest to develop, and throwing more people at it will never help the quality of any development. And this so called "lfg patch" also includes a ton of other things, including graphical and network related optimisations to improve performance on the big destination servers. And that is a time consuming process of trial and error to develop which DOES require the best talent of a company to work on.

 

Please, stop spreading misinformation about real, large scale development cycles in a multi-million dollar service.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Devlonir

[Wikar]

The best things take the longest to develop, and throwing more people at it will never help the quality of any development.

Ive never said that putting alot of people on some task will speed it up. We are talking about "talents", if SWTOR dev team can not bring cross-server LFG tool in a 1.3. They are simple average (read as "not very talented") developers. It's okay, average developers should feed their kids too.

 

And this so called "lfg patch" also includes a ton of other things, including graphical and network related optimisations to improve performance on the big destination servers. And that is a time consuming process of trial and error to develop which DOES require the best talent of a company to work on.

 

Please, stop spreading misinformation about real, large scale development cycles in a multi-million dollar service.

Im not sure where you find me spreading any informations at all, okay, maybe "one week" estimation for a cross-server LFG was a bit rough and little trolling . This does not hide the fact that SWTOR dev team is realy lack of talented developers. I can also remember you "ability delay" which was not even confirmed from the start (how the *** it even passed first internal alpha tests?).

 

From time to time im logging in SWTOR and still can reproduce animation stutter and abilitys not firing with stucking in some animation, having no cast bar while casting, etc. (100 times less than it was at start, but, damn... it is STILL not completly eliminated in this game).

 

PS my last local software project was with 15000+ java classes and a DB with over 1000 tables. And we worked as a team of 10-15 developers at high developing peak. I do really know HOW big and complicated things are going on and worked out. And no, i don't think i am so very talented, ive meet people with alot higher in skills than me.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Artthen
language

[Devlonir]

Ive never said that putting alot of people on some task will speed it up. We are talking about "talents", if SWTOR dev team can not bring cross-server LFG tool in a 1.3. They are simple average (read as "not very talented") developers. It's okay, average developers should feed their kids too.

 

Im not sure where you find me spreading any informations at all, okay, maybe "one week" estimation for a cross-server LFG was a bit rough and little trolling . This does not hide the fact that SWTOR dev team is realy lack of talented developers. I can also remember you "ability delay" which was not even confirmed from the start (how the *** it even passed first internal alpha tests?).

 

From time to time im logging in SWTOR and still can reproduce animation stutter and abilitys not firing with stucking in some animation, having no cast bar while casting, etc. (100 times less than it was at start, but, damn... it is STILL not completly eliminated in this game).

 

PS my last local software project was with 15000+ java classes and a DB with over 1000 tables. And we worked as a team of 10-15 developers at high developing peak. I do really know HOW big and complicated things are going on and worked out. And no, i don't think i am so very talented, ive meet people with alot higher in skills than me.

 

The problem really is that you base their talent on a bug that was caused by massive amount of usage (ability delay), your idea of 'slow' development time which you yourself admit as being trolling, as well as their prioritizing of the fixing of specific bugs.

 

While you should know that the ability delay is very hard to test without having a peak amount of users (which EA/Bioware management did not allow them to have untill 2 weeks before the game in a open beta/practical game demo).

While you state 2 weeks as a must-reach deadline which you later admit was trolling, so how does that really show their lack of, as you define it "talent".

And while you should also know that priority of bug fixing is a management decision, not a developer decision to make.

 

You make a blanket statement about the talent of all Bioware developers, while all examples you make are examples of how lead-developers and/or management are handling things incorrectly.

 

This is like saying that everyone in the United States is an idiot, just because the people in Washingtong have no clue what they are doing.

 

Furthermore, using an undefined term as "talent" to attack any person, including developers, is completely childish and unproductive. As talent is not something easilly prooven, especially not on a personal level.

For my opinion, Bioware developers have a lot of talent. They created a world and engine where a well-written story comes to life using their high level of facial and body animations as well as including high level voice acting to their product.

They also have great talent in ability and attack animations and created a combat system that felt real and alive in the animation department. Instead of just two stick figures beating each other, they made both melee and ranged combat feel fluid and impactful as well as cinematic. This shows more in lower levels than in the mayhem of endgame, but it is still quite a performance.

 

They do have "talent", what they don't seem to have is good management that prioritizes their tasks well. And they also might need a few more people with the specific talent of network/graphical performance tweaking.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Artthen
language in quote

[Jianka]

People, can You tell me what is there to gain from X-Server LFG now? You know, after server transfers?

Last time I checked most players now packed into one, may be two servers per region per server type, all other servers have less than 50 players left total (not at fleet - TOTAL). So, tell me, how adding those few stragglers will make LFG tool better and desirable compared to "it soaks" you yell in this and other similar topics? I even think those leftover players may not even consider it after release, because only reason they are left on their dead and deader servers are because they want to play alone (for is there other reason possible?).

 

So, your X-Server LFG in the end will be populated by all the same people as your Destination server, so what for you really need it cross?

[NasherUK]

If you think cross server will make queues shorter for most people then are wrong. There will still be about the same ratio of tanks/healers to DPS no matter how many people you count. Also if you add cross realm a lot more will only group with guildies to avoid playing with random idiots as well (I know I would do), so more time added to queues.

 

All that cross server does is screw up the community of the individual servers. Just like it did on wow. BW are smart not to want it.

Edited June 18, 2012 by NasherUK

[LordExozone]

In this case I completely agree with Mr. Erickson. Cross-server LFG would be terrible for the community on a server, and indeed only suitable for a last resort. As long as servers have a healthy population there is also simply no need for cross-server grouping.

[Fluoride]

There is no reason not to have the LFG be cross server.

 

For people worried about the "jerk" effect that took place in WoW after they brought in LFG, we have what... 8 servers now with less than 1000 people per side on at any given time. I'd wager that in this game, unlike in WoW, you have a much greater chance of "seeing someone again". We don't have a NA population the size that WoW has, and as a byproduct of that lesser population, we'll have a much smaller number who actually fall into the category of player your afraid of.

 

For those truly worried about ninja looters or *******... You can still form group the old fashioned way via channel advertising, then just queue up and play with your preformed group. You will still have options to avoid the random players you are worried might be less than friendly.

 

Even with the occasional less than friendly player in WoW's LFG system, it was hugely successful in opening up more content for more of its players. People got to enjoy the game more by waiting less and playing more. I fail to see how that's in any way a bad thing.