Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Kunitsukami]

Every hardmode and every nightmare mode is based on this concept yes.

Do X DPS do X healing and do X threat , if you fail to reach the amount of DPS the boss enrages and GG.

 

These enrage timers are also pretty tight.

When you design the game like that be reasonable enough to introduce recount.

 

After all if Bioware did make something unique no one would ask for recount.

They would have worked around it.

 

Edit:

 

As other posters pointed out.

No matter if you are for or against add ons the moment you feel the urge to insult others over it anything you wrote has no meaning.

Since you're not able to respect others their opinion you not possible to debate with, call it the state of mind.

 

Who was your edit for?

[Chosenxeno]

Sorry... I puked a little in my mouth..

 

But you are right though, WoW players want WoW.. No matter what the title of the game is, if it's not WoW they will complain and if it is WoW they will complain as well..

 

I think the WoW players should get together and develop the perfect dream WoW we've all been dreaming about..

 

It's not WOW that we want it's the Streamlining.

 

Companions.

 

Space Missions.

 

The Presentation.

 

AOE looting.(dunno if Blizz has stolen this yet it's been 6 months for me and WOW).

 

No Undead(well there was 1 zombie mission on Tatooine lol)

 

Sci-fi as opposed to High Fantasy(sigh Elves again)

 

These are all not in WOW so with that alone it's enough to hold people's attention. The lack of UI customization and Macros is much bigger than Addons for me and most players regardless of what virtual world they came from. It's stuff that should be in a 2012 MMO.

 

I can't remember if it was Divinity 2 or DAO but it had Macros and it's a single player RPG. SMH@Bioware(espescially if it was DAO).

[Dalytron]

I don't understand why people associate damage meters and other modifications to WoW. These are simple concepts people wanted to improve their game play, nothing more. I think of it as purely feedback, without it how can you ever be better?

 

 

We're not asking for duel spec or goblin/panda characters, all we want is a few tools to better improve our gaming experience. I think most people who play MMO's are pretty competitive players and with or without mod's people are going to be called bad, ect. I mention that only because I've seen a trend of people saying these tools or modification will ruin the game for people who can't play at an average level or better.

[PjPablo]

I don't understand why people associate damage meters and other modifications to WoW. These are simple concepts people wanted to improve their game play, nothing more. I think of it as purely feedback, without it how can you ever be better?

 

I look at it this way as well. Let's say you are DPS and are on an 8-man that the group is struggling with . GL is coming down on you Mr DPS#4 and that is why the enrage timer is killing us. In game today. I have no way of knowing whether DPS#4 is the issue. If I am Mr DPS#4 I would sure like to know whether it's me or maybe that prima donna DPS#2 over there that is responsible.

[Uruare]

Biggest issue I see is this : One group wants one thing, another group is against it.

 

It's almost a cultural issue.

 

Entirely agreed.

 

Say for instance we are back in ye ole day. Half of your populace wants to sacrifice goats to their gods for religious purposes, the other half says that allowing ritual sacrifices to happen without stopping it is not acceptable by their religion. We are at an impasse. The answer can only be binary, as it seems there is no wiggle room for grey. How do you overcome that hurdle to maximize the satisfaction of all parties?

 

Bioware's kinda already decided what sort of game TOR is by the infrastructure of its design. In terms of gameplay, it plays enough like WoW to be very easy to transition into it if you're familiar with how things play and work in WoW, for example.

 

But that's not the driving focus they've invested giant sums of time and money into. Moreover, I don't think its accidental that they determined their driving focus to be the 'pillar of story' that they've been selling the game on since the first official commentaries were made about it.

 

There's room for compromise and juggled, simultaneous priorities alright. It's just as gear intensive as WoW, but unlike WoW, they've enabled themselves to a potentially much more powerful force of motivation than the gear grind alone.

 

Gear grind plus immersive story being that dual pronged system of motivating factors.

 

Unfortunately, perhaps for them, they've committed the entire game engine to their format of story and setting immersion; they're going to have to sustain that and expand upon it here-to-fore.

 

They've painted themselves into a corner on that, it could be said, but I don't think they did so accidentally. For all evidence at hand, they very well planned to place a very heavy emphasis on the motivating factor of immersive, choice-driven storyline.

 

That being the fact in evidence, what they will -not- serve that commitment at all to do is neglect their prime commitment by supporting things that will very probably erode the capacity of that factor to engage their retained audience.

 

In short, heavy emphasis on mods for raids is as much a macrosocial concern, or SHOULD be from Bioware's position, as it is one of personal preference to the unknown many.

 

They very well ought to give it some serious thought. They enable mods just like WoW, they're going to get and keep WoW-esque raiders. They'll be picking a market subset to cater to, essentially, which also means they'll be picking market subsets to alienate.

 

They'll also be setting themselves up to replicate the great divide between the hardcore raiders and the (term used loosely) 'casuals'.

 

WoW recently implemented a raid finder; yet another endeavor of theirs to bridge that ever-present gulf.

 

From a developmental point of view, it is not desireable for only about 5% of your playerbase to see and experience the content 95% of your primary developmental focus gets placed on.

 

Here in TOR? They've got a blank slate, but they're gonna have to choose sooner or later; not exclusively on this particular topic, but things like this are part of it.

 

Which market subset will they cater to? If they're smart, they'll realize that they've already committed themselves in the very nature of their game's presentation to the immersive story draw.

 

Can we not have immersive story -and- hardcore raids? Sure we can; just don't expect hardcore raiders to care about your immersive story. Expect them, in fact, to get sick of the same cut scenes the 843rd time they've seen it in a month and start griping that there are too many, they're too long, they don't belong in raids, yadda yadda blah.

 

And so the great divide will propagate itself if they don't pick a 'side' and service it.

 

They could go either way and do well, but they will not go both ways and accomplish anything but repeating certain elements of WoW's history.

 

Those that fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, and all that.

 

 

 

It's starting to seem that choosing one or zero is going to ostracize the opposing group. You can't tell the goat-killers they can only sacrifice on saturdays, as this will still displease PETA. You can't herald no goats will be killed, as the goat killers will only be pleased by ritual sacrifice.

 

And most importantly you can't leave it up to them to decide, because they are just going to fight over it until the loser is beaten into submission, at which point they will likely go elsewhere. Also if you do the democratic way the loser will still likely end up leaving anyway.

 

Very apt, and very true. Again though, I observe that Bioware has rather completely committed itself to immersive story involvements. They compromise the standard they've set for themselves with that and they'll erode the quality of -the- major selling point of their own game.

 

If we were starting with a blank canvas, this whole disparity could be avoided. Unfortunately, they've built the terms of the disparity into the engine.

 

For them to support Mods on the scale of WoW will invite nothing, and cultivate the cementing of nothing, but a WoW-like playerbase. It won't do so single handedly, but it -will-; it WILL; single handedly devalue their own raid content.

 

They'll have to, as prior posters have pointed out, make raids with the mods in mind; balance them with the expectation that anyone running them will be running TOR's equivalents of Recount and DBM and so on.

 

And then the hardcore raiders will demand content that challenges them at their Excell-and-mod fueled degrees of micro-refinement. Are they bad for liking that kind of thing? Hell naw; not where I'm going with this at all.

 

But it really doesn't mesh well with a game that's a hundred million dollars and an entire, released engine into the Immersive Story model. It's a horse on a dog track; it is not what TOR is, by its own design, aiming itself at.

 

So, we're either going to have some very butthurt hardcore raider migrants, or more likely, a needlessly confused dev team that just can't figure out why nobody's happy with anything and there's this giant gulf between the tiny percentage of people playing the operations they invest so much effort into and the vast majorities.

 

 

Look, I commend you, at everything WoW's dev teams have done over the years to try and bridge that gap. Look at the dungeon finder, the new raid finder, all the dailies and 'welfare epics' on vendors in trade for merits and tokens that the 'casuals' can get.

 

They want people to raid; they want people to be able to bridge that gulf. They created one, they know it.

 

Look then at all the strife and outright animosity that's existed in their own playerbase for it too though. 'Ur bad' is a phrase that comes to mind. 'Welfare epix' is another; how the heck can a piece of gear be 'welfare'?

 

The divide in question is one of macrosocial and, indeed, cultural context. These things aren't mystical happenings to anyone competently familiar with so much as basic human psychology, let alone sophisticated socio-anthro principles and developmental patterns.

 

Humans are not nearly so unpredictable as our flights of dreamy fantasy imagine; not like that. Exactly the opposite, point in case, and I say as much from the platform of one that makes one heck of a living on that being true.

 

If it ain't true, I apparently live in a magical vaccuum wherin which it is true; anyway, I digress. Moving along.

 

I'm having trouble seeing a middle ground here, hence my post about an activity meter. I've raided with meters, and without meters. I personally had the most fun and excitement raiding without, as I myself tended to get highway hypnosis and depending on what I was doing was either staring at health bars, or staring at damage(while still following fight mechanics). Without meters I was able to just worry about fight mechanics, and it made it a much more enjoyable experience.

 

With an activity meter, I can only see myself rehashing what I did after the fight, as well as others, to see what we did wrong in the scenario where we fail the encounter. If we succeed there would really be no reason to, unless someone broke CC or something midfight, and you just need to make sure they know that is on the "not to do list". Granted this doesn't keep the min/maxers happy, and also doesn't give a fair assessment of who needs the most work when pushing the DPS bar for enrage encounters.

 

 

They didn't really leave much room for a comfortable middle ground. The presentation and structuring of the game sells itself quite powerfully with its story immersion; if they sustain and expand on that as vigorously as WoW has elaborated and extended on its dungeons and raids, TOR will quite probably do very well indeed.

 

But they've built the either/or right into their own dang game. I wish they hadn't; I like hardcore raiding and story both.

 

I'm more than sufficiently familiar with both sides of the fence to be able to very well say that there are not many people that are hardcore, dedicated raiders that want their raids to be 4 hours long because there's an hour of cut scenes and another half hour of dialogue trees.

 

It's not what they're there for. It's not why they're working so hard on progression, or getting to points where they can put things on farm. WoW-grade mods are very servicing to that style of gameplay, for all the reasons here on this titanic thread.

 

For a hardcore raider, a lot of those mods are big helps in micro-assessing performance and lending pinpoint insight into what's going on with the numbers.

 

Can that be balanced with the indelible story immersion the game adamantly has hardcoded into its very infrastructure?

 

Yeah, sure; mechanically speaking, its as easy as making the code work (or difficult, as the case may be).

 

In terms of sustaining a playerbase that isn't rehashing WoW's history?

 

You're insane if you keep doing the same thing expecting different results. If they do the same things that WoW has done, the results won't differ much. The economy won't differ much, the great divide between 'raiders' and 'casuals' (terms used loosely) will become a problem requiring their recurring attention and so on.

 

 

They're going to have to pick a 'side'; they've already set the stage for there to -be- sides of the matter. The raider migrants from WoW and similar want their raiding tools, and will not be giving two spits about all the immersive story in their progression runs and farms beyond the first time they've seen them.

 

It's just not what the hardcore raider is there in a raid for. Individually, interests will vary, but who -really- wants to have to farm raids...and have to slog through dialogue you've seen 800 times...and cut scenes you've seen 800 times.

 

Even if you can skip all of them, or spacebar through a lot of it, it's still going to leave a fiery taste in the mouths of some, and we'll be seeing some of those here on this forum howling about how that **** doesn't belong in the raids and they need to minimize how much of that goes into a raid and ya ya yayayaya.

 

All the while, raid operations will become the domain of the hardcore, with difficulties forced to ramp ever upward to keep up with the demand.

 

And they'll never keep up with that demand. Again, repeating WoW's history, wherein which it is not uncommon for hardcore raiders to unsub when they've seen the new raids and only come back when a new raid's out, or a new expansion with several.

 

Those sorts are beyond the reach of an immersive story motivation. Fostering that kind of playerbase utterly neutralizes the potential of an immersive, story-driven presentation.

 

 

And that, as they say...is that. Your thoughts in kind?

 

Thoughts?

[Warjhinn]

Please explain to me how an addon which analyses your playing and does nothing but provide with information is a 'crutch'

 

 

People will use it to assure that the raid/operation/flashpint, whatever, is a cake walk by using those add-ons to exclude people. If they put together a group that overpowers the event, then there is no effort involved. That goes back to "LFM for xxx Raid, must know the fight, must show achievement for having done the fight"..... that kinda stuff excludes people who are doing it for the first time.

[PjPablo]

People will use it to assure that the raid/operation/flashpint, whatever, is a cake walk by using those add-ons to exclude people. If they put together a group that overpowers the event, then there is no effort involved. That goes back to "LFM for xxx Raid, must know the fight, must show achievement for having done the fight"..... that kinda stuff excludes people who are doing it for the first time.

 

Your example has nothing to do with addons. Knowing the fight and/or having done it before don't have anything to do with addons.

 

Now, if you are saying that people will use addons to make sure the people they invite to groups are doing the job they signed up for that's a different story.

 

People seem to forget that if they don't like people putting 'requirements' on who is invited then they can start their own groups. Heck, you could even ask for "LFM Raid XXX. Must not use addons. Must never have done the fight before"

[Vyeth]

People will use it to assure that the raid/operation/flashpint, whatever, is a cake walk by using those add-ons to exclude people. If they put together a group that overpowers the event, then there is no effort involved. That goes back to "LFM for xxx Raid, must know the fight, must show achievement for having done the fight"..... that kinda stuff excludes people who are doing it for the first time.

 

Because raids are static... They are the exact same every single time, and the "challenge" factor is only present until it is beaten (by anyone who will post a guide) and then its just a grind for gear..

 

If they made an encounter that was dynamic, and had a random chance to use completely different tactics or even spawn a completely different boss that did completely different things that any of the other ones, you could try and plan for all of them, but you'd basically have to rely on your tactics rather than gearscores and parses..

[HalusW]

The Raiders are the money in any MMO. If this game is not going to implement tools to Gauge performance or provide better information than it's obvious that the game does not take raiding seriously and people who planned on staying will just be visiting just as they only visited Telaara.

 

I don't need Recount to tell me that less than 5% of the player base does not make up the "money in any MMO." Both Bioware and the extensive voice acting state that this game is not focused on progression raiding.

 

Blizzards new casual focused MMO Titan says hello as well.

[Takhomasak]

Please no.

 

Without getting too deep into it...

 

People keep bringing up the point that they need a way to gauge their progress...

 

I dunno about everyone else, but I can tell how much more damage I'm doing as I level up... it doesn't require much attention

 

People say that it's required for end-game/hardmode encounters of high difficulty...

 

Then, (like in WoW) after they faceroll that new content, they complain about the game being too easy.

 

We need to progress through this game based on our own skills/weaknesses - the latter of which drives us to group with and rely on other people.

 

That is the fun, personal experience that an MMORPG can give us. There is a thrill to achieving something completely on your own merits, and doing so while immersed in a fantasy universe.

 

That's why *most* of us are here. The WoW people are on some completely different planet, and I can't blame them entirely, just the crappy game that has morphed and driven their expectations/watered down their gaming experience.

[TheHauntingBard]

Who was your edit for?

 

Not for you, you keep it constructive.

I just wanted to add it to my post but detach it from your quote.

[GalacticKegger]

No argument, however eloquent, can erase the fact that this is a WoW clone and will advance as such.

Nice try . . .

[AlpsStranger]

Nice try . . .

 

I'm completely serious. You wait and see what actually happens.

[Chosenxeno]

I don't need Recount to tell me that less than 5% of the player base does not make up the "money in any MMO." Both Bioware and the extensive voice acting state that this game is not focused on progression raiding.

 

Blizzards new casual focused MMO Titan says hello as well.

 

5% is a Ridiculous number. They have a Raid Browser. Because Raiding End Game is the biggest part of an MMO. That's why all of these games that try to have PVP End Games have failed. They have tried to make raiding more inclusive. Not more casual. Less than 1000 guilds cleared WOTLK at the end of WOTLK. Heck on my server alone only 3 guilds(of course mine did /flex) beat the final boss of the so-called EZ Expansion.

 

People are so full of it. Addons will make the game too easy(and yet the numbers suggest not many people clear the expansions legit/prenerf) and yet they don't want people kicking them because their DPS is low(shouldn't it be easy to dps in an easy game?). What? Either WOW is easy or it's hard make up your minds people.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Everyone already said NO

 

stop making these threads.

[Chosenxeno]

I'm completely serious. You wait and see what actually happens.

 

I agree with you. Either it will become sort of a WOW with Lightsabers or it will fail. I don't care about these people on here so I don't pretend. I want WOW with Lightsabers and Wookies.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I agree with you. Either it will become sort of a WOW with Lightsabers or it will fail. I don't care about these people on here so I don't pretend. I want WOW with Lightsabers and Wookies.

 

Go back to wow then.

 

SWTOR has no add on's, accept it.

[AlpsStranger]

Everyone already said NO

 

stop making these threads.

 

I seem to see quite a large number of people saying 'Yes' to addons. Where is the controversy coming from if "everyone" said no?

[AlpsStranger]

Go back to wow then.

 

SWTOR has no add on's, accept it.

 

So once SWTOR has addons will you accept it?

[AlpsStranger]

I agree with you. Either it will become sort of a WOW with Lightsabers or it will fail. I don't care about these people on here so I don't pretend. I want WOW with Lightsabers and Wookies.

 

Pretty much this. The game is already a WoW clone, no reason for it to be ****** WoW clone with a weak toolset.

[csward]

I don't like recount because people could be kicked because of their gear or DPS but you need to dungeon in order to acquire the gear to begin with.

 

No, there is a progression system. If you are in over your head, like so many were in the beginning of Cata, you deserve to be kicked because you ruining others experience. Thank goodness Blizzard implemented a minimum item level, so people would know if they could complete a dungeon before everyone wasted their time.

 

That said, Recount and other DPS meters are great to figure out min/maxing for me, and I would love to see them and many other add-ons in the game.

[csward]

Go back to wow then.

 

SWTOR has no add on's, accept it.

 

It will in the future, believe it. Go back to Second Life.

[elenas]

 

You can disagree with me if you want but we can read the Forum and see that the people of Azeroth are here in force. So build us a better WOW.

 

Why don't you ask WoW to build you a better WoW? And if WoW is the pinnacle of the MMO experience, why didn't you stay there?

 

Maybe the answer to that question is you feel that there was something that you lost there, that you no longer have. So now you behave like a virtual diaspora demanding homogeneity in gaming experience in line with your own subjective vales, desires and needs. Yes, Wow is an incredibly succesful commercial enterprise, but that does not necessarily entail a higher quality product and experience. For a lot of people, highly succesful cultural products produced for mass consumption are not intrinsically 'better' than others produced. Maconalds sells a lot of food; enough said. A lot of people playing SW:TOR really dont want World of McWarcraft.

[Jonzar]

3 things ruined the community in WOW and thus took the fun out of the once great game. The LFG system, recount and gearscore. These things just made it basically a numbers race and created a lot of bad attitude in the game.

[Ayami_no_baka]

There is no need for this stuff.

 

Every flashpoint in SWTOR can be completed without certain gear needed. Every flashpoint can be completed without a certain set of players within a group. There is no need to be top DPS to complete flashpoints or do well in PvP...these addons only do one thing: give people another excuse to boot 'lower' players than themselves from groups. It promotes being selfish, that is all.

 

If you are a good player and care about the team, then you don't need an add-on to tell, if someone doesn't fit into the team or isn't ready for a flashpoint. You know by watching them play, checking their gear and give it 5 minutes you can tell. The only thing these add-ons really do is mass producing so called 'pro' groups, that only take the players with best gear and dps. Which is COMPLETE ********. Complete.

 

I've witnessed this so many times in other games already - as soon as there is a way to measure dps, all people do is care about dps. They don't care anymore about all the other important stuff a player can contribute. Healers heal. Players can CC. Someone has to tank, right? No everybody is specced for dps - especially with SWTOR's system. Focusing so much on one point of contribution to a team is just wrong. And stupid. Most DPS should never be a reason to decide which player to take with you LOL (unless you are one of those jerks, that ONLY care about being done as fast as possible - which is another way of being selfish )

 

So. No. Thank you, but no. I am capable of picking my teammates without some retarded system deciding for me, what I should be looking for. And everyone that needs stuff like this should seriously consider to learn how to play and make decisions based on real important stuff :3