(From Taugrim.com)SWTOR Has Repeated RIFT’s Mistakes in Endgame PVP

[SlimsPicken]

I am still left in tor. WHY? i got nothing else better to do.

 

WoW, been there done that... won 2 tournaments, participated in 4. Also old game is old.

 

I think we can all agree you wont be missed.

 

You are a huge bundle of sticks.

[Raggok]

It IS more grindy, you just don't realize that now the grind is for WH, not BM. They replaced one grind for another, and you have obviously fallen for it. GG

 

Correct. Taugrim already has a full BM Vanguard from before patch 1.2. When he is talking about a grind he is talking about the grind to War Hero. I have a fully BM pre-1.2 toon as well. I haven't even bothered to play him since 1.2 because I'm kind of sick of grinds.

 

SWTOR is in big trouble, because GW2 allows you to roll a level 1 toon and immediately PvP with him at max level and gear. This is what PvPers want. We don't want gear grinds that artifically effect competition.

[Lithy]

I'm fairly certain that he knows he'll be able to acquire BM sufficiently with a mere time investment. Getting the head start on WH isn't completely foolish considering that he's going to be able to grind out the comms he needs for Battlemaster through his normal play time anyway.

 

 

true but if you want the max benefit at 50 you'd want to buy boots/gloves, then once u farm up 1.5k more Wars u can get the weapon and upgrade it to warhero. He claims to want to do his best as a fresh 50 but doesn't understand how to do that. He also claimed that the rakata medpack could replace the warzone medpacks, and while it will be nice and helpful warzone medpacks will always be better than rakata reusable in PvP.

 

Other than his choice for gear, can you argue against any of his points about the game in general?

 

I'll be anxiously awaiting.

 

Sure, the gear difference is not as big as claimed. Between recruit and BM sure? intentional but there is so little difference between the next tier its next to irrelevant.

 

The grind he mentioned to be competitive is almost non existent. I played my alt sorc only enough to get the dailies/weeklies done which is not very much of a time investment and got full BM very fast for the time put in. You don't need full warhero to be competitive. You can augment battle master if you want, and with 1.3 you can augment anything. Easily. If you want a PvP grind go play LotRO, took someone like 3 years to reach max renown rank and that was after they lowered the required renown needed. And in that if you were a creep (monster player) your rank directly affected your available skills.

 

Long as people know what their doing group comp is also almost irrelevant, does it help? yeah, but you can win with basically anything. Healer/tank is all u need but that's not new to TOR. The main factors are do people understand their roles. Does your tank guard the healer/ball carrier? do your snipers control mid? do people get ahead of the ball carrier? Do healers...heal?

Premades can choose comp if they want to but I've premade no tank and done just fine. In competitive ranked play when you can Q 8 at a time it will matter more, but as the game stands right now you just need basics. If that.

 

Players understanding how to play and what to do in the various warzones matter more than everything he said put together.

 

I'm a sniper, arguably one of the squishier classes in the game. It takes a long time for people to kill me solo, even with 2+ it can take a decent amount of time, without heals. People, and that guy, say TTK is faster in 1.2. True enough. but it's not THAT much faster.

 

I loved PVP in SWTOR pre-1.2 in both the 10-49 and 50 brackets. Raved about it consistently here and elsewhere. Why? Pre-1.2, we could run comps with a wide variety of classes/specs and do well in warzones. What mattered the most were the players behind the keyboard. That’s the way it should be.

But after 1.2, that is no longer the case – the class balance gaps are too significant to ignore from a mechanics standpoint.

 

This is STILL the case, the problem is the skill cap went up for some classes. Sorc healers? Skill cap went up. Mercs? Class got nerfed pretty bad yeah but in the hands of really good players I've seen them still dominate. Operative? very high skill cap for PvP. Sniper/GS always had a decent cap for skill. The diffrence between FotM reroll assassins and maraduers and skilled ones is amazing. The balance for team based combat is pretty decent atm. Arsenal could use a slight PvP buff but for the most part...it's not bad if you know what you're doing.

 

Edit: I agree with a post a few up, launch - 1.1 class balance was much worse than it was in 1.2.

 

Correct. Taugrim already has a full BM Vanguard from before patch 1.2. When he is talking about a grind he is talking about the grind to War Hero. I have a fully BM pre-1.2 toon as well. I haven't even bothered to play him since 1.2 because I'm kind of sick of grinds.

 

 

Warhero was meant to be obtained at a similar pace to BM, if you don't want to do it atm you don't have to. Allowing us to obtain Warhero gear was a courtesy after rated was pulled. It could have been left like the black-purple expertise crystal. Unobtainable.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Lithy

[Jalez]

First off the cat boasting about winning WoW tournaments needs to ****, WoW PvP is for 7 year olds with ADHD son, no true MMO vet takes WoW PvP seriously.

 

Secondly the dude Taugrim that wrote this blog, I dont personally know him but I can vouch for this FACT: The vast majority of MMO's pre WoW did not have tournaments or rankings, so you couldnt be ranked obviously.

 

Now DAoC had Rankings on their website and still do (they kinda f'd it up recently) that listed Top Guilds All Time, Monthly, Weekly...Top Realm Point earners All Time, Monthly, Weekly, Top 25 in Class etc..etc...but it wasnt in tournament style it was the entire server was ranked. Top solo kills, Top Midgard Kills, Top Hibernia Kills etc

 

I believe GW2 will go to this system as well, but its the gameplay that matters first, then rankings. WoW was very basic in its PvP as there were KNOWN strategies for every build and counters, in games such as DAoC and GW2(GW2 has SPvP as well, I know) you can win a 8v8 then instantly get hit by another 8 man and you need to recover immediately or you were done, this took extraordinary skill and precision that "cage matches" will never provide, since its the same maps and scenarios all the time.

 

SwtoR PvP missed the boat, any serious PvP'r is playing in GW2 BWE's getting ready for major competiion from

Edited May 21, 2012 by Jalez

[Lymain]

I basically agree with Taugrim. Yes, it's easy to get recruit/BM gear now, but the difference between BM gear without augments and WH gear with augments is significant, and grinding for fully augmented WH gear takes a very long time without ranked war zones.

 

I also agree that class balance has gotten worse with 1.2, but I actally liked the class balance on release the most (minus adrenal stacking and bugs). Plus, you could create more interesting builds back then.

[CTHONICON]

You might want to actually review his guides before you go judging taugrim. He actually does provide some valuable information with regard to some classes in swtor and, in the past, RIFT. If you're all super-elite mr. or mrs. bad*****, then you don't need his advice and there is no need to bash him.

 

And who in here gets PAID to play SWTOR? Are any of you professional SWTOR pvp'rs? NO? Perhaps instead try to contribute something useful to either the forums or to the game. Hating and negativity solves nothing, gives nothing.

 

That being said, I do not agree with this statement that 1.2 was "grindy", especially given that the pre-1.2 experience was far more harsh than post 1.2. Recruit gear does help somewhat and I don't think the disparity between recruit and full BM is enough to deter new pvp'rs. As mentioned, BW has other issues that are leading to unsubs and low populations on servers.

 

Moving on I do completely agree with the following:

 

"With the sweeping changes to classes in 1.2, PVP outcomes are now heavily influenced by which classes your group contains."

 

This is an absolutely correct assessment. The point being, and this is important, that it does not matter what your SKILL LEVEL is, you are not going to win that warzone match if the other team is comprised of the FOTM club players. I've been in WZs where I was the only dps (and as a JKG Vigilance spec, that's really not saying much) and we faced two or three healing operatives and the rest were either marauders or assassins. Yeah, good luck trying to kill even ONE of them.

 

That is a significant problem that needs to be addressed, although I'm not sure what the solution should be. Anyway, I really do think taug contributes to the swtor community in a positive manner and should not be dismissed. If you already know EVERYTHING, then fine, go blog it up and post your links. Otherwise, yeah.

 

-Shaka

[gilgath]

I support Taugrim's message and AGREE 100%.

[svartalfimposter]

So, you believe that running through a warzone like a disable old-(gender of your choice), or (in WoW's case) being stunlocked into oblivion is PvP? You believe that gear and Expertise/Resilience should fight the battle for you?

 

No.

[Khoraji]

 

SWTOR is in big trouble, because GW2 allows you to roll a level 1 toon and immediately PvP with him at max level and gear. This is what PvPers want. We don't want gear grinds that artifically effect competition.

 

This is what pvpers who dont like RPG's want.

[RobNightfall]

To PvP for 20 years, and never rise above average status. Is the epitome of fails.

 

That alone is reason enough for not caring what he has to say about balance in any game related issues.... ever

 

I've played with this guy in Rift. They never used a ranking system so you couldn't point to a special score to determine who was the best, but absolutely none of us on the defiant side ever liked seeing his dwarf show up in the battle grounds. At best, you killed his team out from under him and then went for Taugrim. If he was with his guild in a premade, his tank cleric would simply suck up your DPS until the rest of his team showed back up.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that those of you who have played either no MMOs or only WoW need to shut up and learn to listen. Taugrim designs his specs and tailors his way of doing things strictly by the numbers. He knows what he is talking about and is very, very good.

[Raggok]

Warhero was meant to be obtained at a similar pace to BM, if you don't want to do it atm you don't have to. Allowing us to obtain Warhero gear was a courtesy after rated was pulled. It could have been left like the black-purple expertise crystal. Unobtainable.

 

It's not just getting the gear. Let's take a pre 1.2 full BM, for example. Did i stop once I got my full BM set? No. I had to get other pieces to rip out mods to fix my stats, because the stat distribution on the BM set sucked. It was horrible.

 

When 1.2 hit, all of the stats on my BM gear were put back into retard mode. And, I couldn't fix it since they put expertise on everything which forces you to get more of the new gear to fix your stats again.

 

Now, it would be foolish to put that kind of effort into fixing your BM gear. It needs to be saved for War Hero gear. You can't really start fixing yourself unless you have War Hero gear. I'm thinking a full War Hero toon with augments and adjusted mods is going to destroy someone in BM gear out-of-the-box.

 

A competitive PvPer wants to be in the best gear they can possibly have not to have advantage over others but to know that they don't have a disadvantage against others. I'm not willing to grind to reach that level when there is a game on the horizon that will let me reach that level in a matter of minutes from rolling a level one character.

 

SWTOR PvP is dead when GW2 comes out. Dead. The SWTOR developers won't be able to compete with what GW2 has to offer. IMO, they should turn 100% of their attention to PvE players.

[Mathenaut]

The post shows a distinct lack of perspective.

 

That blissful land of pre-1.2 PvP was *way more* grindy and imbalanced than its current state. In fact, for the first month, geared out 50s were farming lowlevels in quest greens. After that, you had to play lots and lots of Champ bag lottery and then Battlemaster bag lottery before you were geared. Now, a week of dailies and you're in full BM or as close as doesn't matter. If Ranked WZs were actually live, you'd be in full War Hero amazingly soon after that.

 

My guess: he was an early leveler and PvPer with his previous character, and missed how nasty it used to be to start PvP a few weeks or a month after everyone else. Being a recruit-clad newbie is much, much more forgiving.

 

This. 1.2 brought alot of improvements to PvP overall (minus the Sorc changes).

 

It's far from being ideal, but that only speaks to how much worse things were pre-1.2

[Raggok]

This is what pvpers who dont like RPG's want.

 

And for those who want RPG and PVP they have World versus World which still emphasizes gear progression. Which is another aspect of PvP that I enjoy. With GW2 you actually get an OPTION as to which type of PvP you want to do.

 

SWTOR will be dead to PvPers when GW2 comes out.

[Pekish]

SWTOR is in big trouble, because GW2 allows you to roll a level 1 toon and immediately PvP with him at max level and gear. This is what PvPers want. We don't want gear grinds that artifically effect competition.

 

 

yep and after 1 month beeing exactly at the same point where u were day one and after 2 month beeing still there nothing changed and after 6 month still doing exactly the same, same gear same pvp same warzone WvWvW nothing change nothing last everything reset no real effect no the world no real effect on ur guild no real effect on your character

 

you get bored on SWTOR in 1 month of doing the same stuff WHILE GEARING UP and changing spec/gear every time

 

and you praise a game that wont change in 6 month (thats why there is no monthly payment don't you get it???)

 

GW2 will be very very big the first 2 month 3 for the PRO-pvper that will mix max THE GROUP (no the gear since they are all the same)

 

after that nothing i personally without all the math and the fun in changing gear and testing this and that would have already gone from SWTOR so probably wont last more then 1 month in GW2

 

every pg can do everything everybody geared the same it's a FPS and i dont like FPS

Edited May 21, 2012 by Pekish

[IHate]

I think the post is right on.

So many players on here comparing him to "top" or "ranked" players of which none or few of the posters in here or -in-game are either. I've played lots and lots of warzones and trust me....not many players in this game are as good as they are at posting in these forums about how good they are. I'd say more than 75% of players are PUG players and only a few premades are of top quality from what I see.

 

What we ALL should be concerned with is the player base (ie people that pay for this game to stay alive). If we have an imbalance which is obvious by number of profession rerolls to certain classes and lack of playing others, then there are some issues whether or not you want to admit it or not...he hits the nail on the head tbh.

 

The gear difference and the new tankdps classes are what is out of whack here. I think the gear question would have been solved if Ranked WZs were in place when they did the gear change, but since they are not and we have no outlook about when they will be...well, its just garbage now.

 

The mismatches are happening way more now and the communication we have heard so far is that they are overall very happy with the changes in-house. What I hear in vent, in-game and on these very forums from players seems to be that they are overall unhappy about it and we know the numbers are dropping daily for whatever reasons.

 

TLDR version...Call Taugrim whatever you want, but we obviously have some problems here.

[ehtom]

And for those who want RPG and PVP they have World versus World which still emphasizes gear progression. Which is another aspect of PvP that I enjoy. With GW2 you actually get an OPTION as to which type of PvP you want to do.

 

SWTOR will be dead to PvPers when GW2 comes out.

 

If you want a PvP game with no progression, there are literally HUNDREDS of them e.g. Counter Strike, Starcraft, DotA, LoL, etc. Your character getting stronger the more you play is a KEY FEATURE of an RPG. GW2 will be a drop in the ocean compared to the games I just listed.

[dalevan]

It gives more reason to play... Just owning people over and over is getting boring and i'm not full war hero yet so i've slowed down so i can keep playing.

 

I agree. FPS online games should be "just get in there and start PvPing." MMO's are usually progression themed to keep the interest, compare/share gear ideas with friends, gear status showing off how far you've progressed in the game. I believe most of the people who complain about any kind of grind are people with short attention spans that go from game to game anyway no matter what a developer does. I also believe that gear should only give a slight edge. As it is now, the edge seems a little bit much. Of course that can vary class to class, spec to spec, and player to player.

[Khoraji]

If you want a PvP game with no progression, there are literally HUNDREDS of them e.g. Counter Strike, Starcraft, DotA, LoL, etc. Your character getting stronger the more you play is a KEY FEATURE of an RPG. GW2 will be a drop in the ocean compared to the games I just listed.

 

Exactly.

 

I love FPS games. But when I go and play my RPG's, I want it to feel like an RPG.

[Zocat]

"pre-1.2 Watchman Sentinel/Annihilation Marauders, Shadow/Assassin 31-pt tanks, and Assault Spec Vanguards/Pyrotech Powertechs were overpowered, and Scoundrel/Operative healers were underpowered."

 

"he same healer playing a Sage/Sorc versus Operative/Scoundrel will heal much more effectively with the latter."

 

So how does this make balance WORSE? It's the same.

Pre 1.2 one healing class was better - post 1.2 the other is better. Sure, it doesnt make the balance better, but it's also not making the balance worse.

Not even mentioning that pyroPT got a nice nerf.

 

 

PvP Gear:

pre 1.2 we could get 7 champion commendations (needed for 2nd best PvP set) for 800 warzone comms.

iirc you needed 67 comms for 1 piece (chest, helm, hands, ...) so that's 9 bags. So 5600 warzone comms for 1 piece of the 2nd best pvp set. The chance to find a finished token post 1.1.5 (?) is negligible (never found one after 1.1.5).

Now in 1.2 you need ~12.5k warzone comms for FULL bm - the 2nd best PvP set.

 

Sure - is it fair to match recruit geared players against full augmented WH guys? No.

But there are a lot of things which arent fair in the game (premade vs randoms, full bm vs 0 expertise pre 1.2, ...). Ranked warzones will (hopefully) change this. People with good gear will play in the higher regions and new players will be able to acquire gear during their ascend to those regions.

[Raggok]

If you want a PvP game with no progression, there are literally HUNDREDS of them e.g. Counter Strike, Starcraft, DotA, LoL, etc. Your character getting stronger the more you play is a KEY FEATURE of an RPG. GW2 will be a drop in the ocean compared to the games I just listed.

 

Again, with this tired argument?

 

What I mentioned is an OPTION. If you want to PvE, you can PvE in an enviroment that is far more challenging than SWTOR. If you want open PvP dependent on gear and level progression, then you can do World versus World PvP which is... oh, I don't know... about infinitely times better than the current state of PvP in Ilum.

 

It's about having the option to play endgame PvP right out of the box that is so attractive. That is not the only style of gameplay available. A more standard type of MMORPG gameplay is also available. SWTOR does not give you those options. Thus, it dies with respect to PvP for those who want those options.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Raggok

[Pistols]

I agree. FPS online games should be "just get in there and start PvPing." MMO's are usually progression themed to keep the interest, compare/share gear ideas with friends, gear status showing off how far you've progressed in the game. I believe most of the people who complain about any kind of grind are people with short attention spans that go from game to game anyway no matter what a developer does. I also believe that gear should only give a slight edge. As it is now, the edge seems a little bit much. Of course that can vary class to class, spec to spec, and player to player.

 

Players would be fine with a gear grind, provided the PvP gameplay was worth playing. The gear grind is prolly the least of the issues in the PvP debacles atm, but I wouldn't be opposed to end game gear being ready for fresh 50's either. In the end, I don't want to PvP against players who are at a disadvantage, and would rather PvP be about competitive PvP, than showing off how many times I've queue'd up and played (which tbh, is all WH gear shows).

 

There is a reason PvP players are leaving this game, and when it comes to attention spans, BW has shown it has little room to spare for the PvP aspect. Being bored isn't the players fault, it's those who create content, that are failing to keep us around. Sadly, we don't have a team that wants a thriving PvP gameplay option. /shrug

Edited May 21, 2012 by Pistols

[dalevan]

Players would be fine with a gear grind, provided the PvP gameplay was worth playing. The gear grind is prolly the least of the issues in the PvP debacles atm, but I wouldn't be opposed to end game gear being ready for fresh 50's either. In the end, I don't want to PvP against players who are at a disadvantage, and would rather PvP be about competitive PvP, than showing off how many times I've queue'd up and played (which tbh, is all WH gear shows).

 

There is a reason PvP players are leaving this game, and when it comes to attention spans, BW has shown it has little room to spare for the PvP aspect. Being bored isn't the players fault, it's those who create content, that are failing to keep us around. Sadly, we don't have a team that wants a thriving PvP gameplay option. /shrug

 

No doubt Pistols. I just disagree with the ones who want to be competitive right out of the box, which 10-49 WZ's really kind of provide as you can level with PvP. Gear definitely is not the only thing that will keep people around obviously. Without an engaging, meaningful World PvP system, which I know you enjoy as do I and many of our friends, and the team competition of Ranked Warzones, as well as server specific forums, the PvP community will get smaller and smaller as they move on to other games that satisfy their needs.

[Raggok]

I just disagree with the ones who want to be competitive right out of the box, which 10-49 WZ's really kind of provide as you can level with PvP.

 

Competitive at endgame. Levels 10-49 are obviously not endgame.

 

Let's say you want to try out a different class, but you aren't sure you are going to like it at endgame. In SWTOR, you have to level to 50 and then gear up to see if it is going to be something you are happy with. In GW2, you roll a level 1 of that class and try out many different builds, weapons, and gear load outs to see if you want to play that class at endgame. Then, you level it if you like it.

 

MMORPG developers have been treating the playbase like crap for so long you can't even realize a good thing when you see it. ;P

Edited May 21, 2012 by Raggok

[Raggok]

The author of that blog has no clue what grindy is before 1.2.

 

The author of that blog had a full BM Vanguard before patch 1.2.

[Khoraji]

Again, with this tired argument?

 

What I mentioned is an OPTION. If you want to PvE, you can PvE in an enviroment that is far more challenging than SWTOR. If you want open PvP dependent on gear and level progression, then you can do World versus World PvP which is... oh, I don't know... about infinitely times better than the current state of PvP in Ilum.

 

It's about having the option to play endgame PvP right out of the box that is so attractive. That is not the only style of gameplay available. A more standard type of MMORPG gameplay is also available. SWTOR does not give you those options. Thus, it dies with respect to PvP for those who want those options.

 

World pvp is not an option for competitive pvpers. It is for casual fun only