(From Taugrim.com)SWTOR Has Repeated RIFT’s Mistakes in Endgame PVP

[anticept]

I dont know if its been mentioned already, but regardless I will state it now. One thing that discredits his entire article is that at the beginning of the article he said he plays a Scoundral and saved up 3.5k rwz comms, and 2k wz comms while levelling; then in the middle of the article he states PRE 1.2 CHANGES WAS THE BEST LVL 50 PVP HE EVER HAD.

 

Hmm, so which is it? This guy has no *********** clue what he's talking about. I couldnt even be bothered reading the rest of the article after seeing that ********. Haters gonna hate.

 

You really that daft... He has a lvl 50 vanguard BM+rank pre 1.2 and the balance and class balance PRE 1.2 was much better than after 1.2 changes so obviously he leveled the scoundrel after 1.2 did low level pvp for the comms before dinging.

 

So next time get your facts straight before posting nonsense.

[Smashbrother]

Taugrim makes valid points, but his whole "Pre 1.2 pvp was less grindy/better for fresh 50s than post 1.2" point is wrong. Taugrim says that pre 1.2 was less grindy because gear was limited by the champ bags and you get them from dailies. Well think is, most people played tons of games to be able to purchase the champ bags with WZ/merc comms.

 

Also, playing lottery with my champ bags was not fun at all, and I had about a 10% chance to get an item token. It took sooooooo long to get geared up pre 1.2. Unless you were the luckiest man in the world, gearing up post 1.2 is much much faster.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Smashbrother

[anticept]

Taugrim makes valid points, but his whole "Pre 1.2 pvp was less grindy/better for fresh 50s than post 1.2" point is wrong. Taugrim says that pre 1.2 was less grindy because gear was limited by the champ bags and you get them from dailies. Well think is, most people played tons of games to be able to purchase the champ bags with WZ/merc comms.

 

Also, playing lottery with my champ bags was not fun at all, and I had about a 10% chance to get an item token. It took sooooooo long to get geared up pre 1.2. Unless you were the luckiest man in the world, gearing up post 1.2 is much much faster.

 

It´s about the same when they boosted the badges from champ bags if you did the merc/wzcomms 2k/2k you´d get min 3pcs of cent and 1 champ + weekly kills from ilum and if lucky weekly wins in 2-3 days you´d be full cent/champ in your first week and if lucky with item tokens faster. Now i admit that gearing this way took some dedication but it was doable if you logged in to do the ilum at peak hours and WZ pops was much more common then.

 

But if you consider that expertise wasn´t that big of a deal (as it is now) in pre 1.2 with full epic modded oranges + columni/rakata ear+implants you had more end+main stat and better secondary stats + the distribution of stats than with cent and almost identical with champ the grind didn´t seem that bad ofc if you ignored gearing and went in with lvl 20-40 greens and sub level mods you didn´t stand a chance but that was peoples own fault.

 

That´s just how i felt the gearing in pre 1.2 feel free to disagree but it came down to simply timing your playtime to rush hours to get ilum done in 20mins and weekly ilum in ~1½ hour.

[Baalseraph]

I dont know if its been mentioned already, but regardless I will state it now. One thing that discredits his entire article is that at the beginning of the article he said he plays a Scoundral and saved up 3.5k rwz comms, and 2k wz comms while levelling; then in the middle of the article he states PRE 1.2 CHANGES WAS THE BEST LVL 50 PVP HE EVER HAD.

 

Hmm, so which is it? This guy has no *********** clue what he's talking about. I couldnt even be bothered reading the rest of the article after seeing that ********. Haters gonna hate.

 

He played Vanguard to 50 and BM prior to 1.2. He started a sentinel alt prior to 1.2 but decided, after reading around getting the general perception that GUNSLINGER(not scoundrel like you erroneously posted) was weak, especially sharpshooter specced GUNSLINGER(capping this again because it is apparent that your reading comprehension is underwhelming at best), he decided to instead level a GUNSLINGER alt PRIOR to 1.2. He brought this ALT up through to 50 PRIOR and AFTER 1.2.

 

So nice feeble attempt to push whatever agenda you are trying to push. People like Taugrim(just ask Larry Everett, Gary Gannon, Total Biscuit, etc.) that push out content via blog, streaming, uploading videos, or guesting on specialty shows like Gamebreaker TV have a tendency to draw pathetic bottom-feeder trolls such as yourself like roaches to a rib roast(this is my interpretive wording by the way, I'm not near as nice as Taugrim about foot wipe material such as what you just posted). So congratulations on being rather typical and pathetic in that regard.

[Orangerascal]

I dont know if its been mentioned already, but regardless I will state it now. One thing that discredits his entire article is that at the beginning of the article he said he plays a Scoundral and saved up 3.5k rwz comms, and 2k wz comms while levelling; then in the middle of the article he states PRE 1.2 CHANGES WAS THE BEST LVL 50 PVP HE EVER HAD.

 

Hmm, so which is it? This guy has no *********** clue what he's talking about. I couldnt even be bothered reading the rest of the article after seeing that ********. Haters gonna hate.

 

He levelled a Gunslinger not a 'Scoundral', also your post makes no sense.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Orangerascal

[pathiss]

Sorry T, Dissb isn't around to make me be nice any more.

[BillyGoatGruff]

Yep.

 

I rolled a Sentinel alt back in mid-January, but after the repeated comments from players in my Twitch Chat Room and elsewhere on social media and on the SWTOR forums about how much Gunslingers sucked, in particular the Sharpshooter/Marksmanship tree, so I decided to roll a Sharpshooter Gunslinger alt and reached level 10 on March 1st.... (REVIEW THE ORIGINAL POST FOR THE FULL WALL OF TEXT)

 

(Venting post skip if you don't care)

 

To a player who PVPed at 50 as a 1.0 GS/Sniper, to be critiqued by another player playing a 50 GS/Sniper after the 1.2 patch is unintentionally insulting. I understand the perception of someone playing the class now that, "this class's abilities haven't really changed, there has only been a few bug fixes, only a few minor buffs... so really this class/spec has always been this powerful." Not necessarily a good analysis though.

 

I would not boast overly much about accomplishments post 1.2 as a Gunslinger/sharpshooter. Sniper/GS, especially the Sharpshooter/Marksman trees, had a lot of valid complaints to deal with in PVP since launch. Some of them were obvious to everyone who competitively played 50 pvp such as a GS not being able to go into cover while rooted until the fix in 1.2 patch. (the main reason people preferred aoe spec or lethality spec over sharpshooter/marksman pre 1.2)

 

Others issues like how brutal a version 1.0 melee operative/scoundrel could countered a GS/sniper of any spec, were only apparent to the operative/scoundrels and the GS/Sniper whom they 3 shotted. Early on tanks stacked defense, shield chance, and shield absorb which hurt sharpshooter more than any class/spec in the game making their damage against such opponent very random and diminishing the sense of 'this is a game of skill".

 

Nerfs to the melee operative/scoundrel were a passive buff to Gunslingers. Better understanding of avoidance mitigation mechanics by tanks who switched defense/shield stats for offensive stats caused sharpshooter/marksman specs to haphazardly improve by a dramatic margin. Passive buffs that flew under the radar of people who analyze the pvp balance but didn't play the GS/Sniper class from the beginning. Phrased another way, GS/Snipers have benefited a lot through Power Creep in 1.2

 

To be clear though, there probably hasn't been a scarier DPS in PVP than a free-casting GS/sniper since launch. It's not hard to find highlight reels like Battlemaster Revy's GS compilation, or premade compositions vs PUGs that had a sniper dealing top dps like Delicious Pancake Squad's twitch stream from 1.0 &1.1, but weren't a good reflection of the class's overall viability.

 

/logging off vent now

Edited May 24, 2012 by BillyGoatGruff

[BillyGoatGruff]

I find taugrim's blog post http://taugrim.com/2012/05/20/swtor-has-repeated-rifts-mistakes-in-endgame-pvp/ to be ambiguous. The analysis of gear scaling, I whole heartedly agree with. Gear choices should be important - such as prioritizing stats and set bonus choices, but I don't like gear treadmills and massive escalation in stats each new tier. It works against the fun/fair factor in pvp.

 

I have a difference of opinion that the grind has become incredibly worse. I see it as being both better and worse. A premade elitist has lost a lot of their advantage in getting BIS gear much much faster than a PUG player, of equal skill, who solo grinds out Warzones. But the amount of time needed to acquire War Hero gear and then augmented War Hero gear is excessive to say the least.

 

The class balance and lower population due to lower quality of pvp comments I disagree with. I don't believe the gap in class balance has gotten wider since launch, I think it has just shifted. A lot more Gunslingers in 1.0 left than any class I knew. Then as the melee operative/scoundrels were progressively nerfed in damage while Bioware failed to offer some utility to make up for the changes, they began to leave. The 1.2 patch hit 2 of 3 healing classes hard. Many have stopped playing or rerolled scoundrel/ops heals. When old compositions aren't as powerful as they used to be, people are quick to blame class balance. I think the War Hero tier of gear just compounded the problem by making it much harder to reroll and then reach a competitive gear level for the current best compositions.

 

It is at about this point pvp problems have snowballed --- people are playing less because less people are playing. I don't see it as a balance issue as the worst balance issues were at the launch of the game and not in its current form. It's just that which classes are feeling the greatest impact have changed causing those player/class bases to decide between rerolling, quitting, or continue playing a less competitive (possibly less fun) spec/class.

Edited May 24, 2012 by BillyGoatGruff

[dcgregorya]

Nerfs to the melee operative/scoundrel were a passive buff to Gunslingers. Better understanding of avoidance mitigation mechanics by tanks who switched defense/shield stats for offensive stats caused sharpshooter/marksman specs to haphazardly improve by a dramatic margin. Passive buffs that flew under the radar of people who analyze the pvp balance but didn't play the GS/Sniper class from the beginning. Phrased another way, GS/Snipers have benefited a lot through Power Creep in 1.2

 

To be clear though, there probably hasn't been a scarier DPS in PVP than a free-casting GS/sniper since launch. It's not hard to find highlight reels like Battlemaster Revy's GS compilation, or premade compositions vs PUGs that had a sniper dealing top dps like Delicious Pancake Squad's twitch stream from 1.0 &1.1, but weren't a good reflection of the class's overall viability.

 

/logging off vent now

 

I tend to agree with this. I never thought GS were drastically underpowered, they did have energy issues in the dirty fighting tree and incendiary was meh. Burst volley was a waste of 3 points in the SS tree. Nothing huge though in terms of balance changes. Probably the biggest buff though to Gunslingers was the fact that tanky specs suddenly decided defense/shield & absorb were totally worthless. They geared like the only ranged DPS they were going to fight was sages/sorcs and the result is that they went from being invuln vs gunslingers to easy peasy.

 

Ofc instead of gearing tanks like tanks people are just going to forum whine once RWZ comes out and beg for nerfs (it's a similar deal with marauders - you'd be surprised how many of their attacks can be dodged).

Edited May 24, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Psiwolf]

If gaming was a physical sport, then yes. coaches have the knowledge but lack the physical ability that comes with extensive training.

 

Sadly for him, and your bad analogy, gaming is all about knowledge and how to apply it. If he lacks that, he can't comment on game balance.

 

You see, physical sports are two dimensional, they require mental ability and physical ability. You may lack one and excel at another, Gaming however only has 1 dimension, mental ability . If you lack that, well you're screwed.

 

You've obviously never followed professional gaming. Go watch some clips on Starcraft players and how they train. Have you never heard of the term APM and how it drops off as you age?

[Pekish]

you are wrong and yellow text is right

 

this game is MATH once u understand it you excel at it because due to global cool-down there is little to zero reflex(physical activity) involved ok you have to be faster then a snail but this is easily achievable by everybody with little to no training

 

it's all about action reaction and knowledge of the skill/ability

 

so you cannot compare this game to SC it's like compare running with playing chess

 

star craft on the other hand is all about the number of operation u can do in a second and this is all about training.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Pekish

[anticept]

you are wrong and yellow text is right

 

this game is MATH once u understand it you excel at it because due to global cool-down there is little to zero reflex(plittle to zero hysical activity) involved ok you have to be faster then a snail but this is easily achievable by everybody with little to no training

 

it's all about action reaction and knowledge of the skill/ability

 

so you cannot compare this game to SC it's like compare running with playing chess

 

star craft on the other hand is all about the number of operation u can do in a second and this is all about training.

 

Did you even think when you posted your gibberish reacting to someones action doesn´t require any reflex in your opinion...

 

And if Swtor is about math..?!no wait now it´s training... how is SC different then ? It´s even more about math than swtor will ever be ie. Actions per second , superion numbers to opponent by maxing troop development to incoming materials.

[Psiwolf]

you are wrong and yellow text is right

 

this game is MATH once u understand it you excel at it because due to global cool-down there is little to zero reflex(physical activity) involved ok you have to be faster then a snail but this is easily achievable by everybody with little to no training

 

it's all about action reaction and knowledge of the skill/ability

 

so you cannot compare this game to SC it's like compare running with playing chess

 

star craft on the other hand is all about the number of operation u can do in a second and this is all about training.

 

Reading is hard, amirite? Yellow text wasn't talking about SWTOR, he was talking about gaming in general. So you're incorrect as well. Also, Starcraft is NOT "all about the number of operations u can do in a second". APM is only a part of it.

[SliggXx]

To PvP for 20 years, and never rise above average status. Is the epitome of fails.

 

That alone is reason enough for not caring what he has to say about balance in any game related issues.... ever

 

By who's metrics? Yours? Who are you? And pray tell, what does being a "Top PVPer" entail? Are you one of the 50 billion WoW Arena kids who seem to think that achieving Gladiator status in a game with a GCD. with cookie-cutter group composition means anything at all? Please...

 

I love how people's fragile egos won't even let someone talk about PvP without having to disparage someone.

[Psiwolf]

I love how people's fragile egos won't even let someone talk about PvP without having to disparage someone.

 

This is totally QFT

[SliggXx]

And on a side note: Anyone who even brings up competitive RTS in a conversation about mmorpgs, even tangentially, is a load. Different universes. I have known competitive RTS and FPS players who were very average mmo players. It isn't even the same skill-set, as mmorpgs aren't really centered around reflexive hand-eye skill (though it doesn't hurt).

 

I have heard the same argument again and again about how there is "no skill involved" in any mmo with a GCD. The ironic thing is that some of these players were those I had thoroughly outplayed in PvP in an mmorpg. IF it is true that there is no skill involved in pvp in a game such as this, why is there such a disparity between "good" and "bad?" On my server we generally farm and have been farming just about everyone (with maybe 1-2 exceptions, though they are regrettably gone from the server now). Regarding a "skill cap," I can say that I don't play perfectly and am not using every single GCD. I have yet to see any player EVER that has done so. If you disagree with this, I invite you to provide evidence of someone who plays at this supposed skill cap. I myself am not a proponent of a skill cap, but like I said, I have yet to see anyone reaching it, despite the insistence that it exists. And like I said before, often the people who argue this point with the greatest amount of tenacity are the ones who tend to be as far from their supposed "skill cap" as your average clicker.

Edited May 24, 2012 by SliggXx

[Veeius]

Honestly games are meant to be fun. Once it crosses that line into becoming a sport it no longer becomes fun for the majority of participants.

 

100% correct. Most correct thing I've read in this thread.

[iNeXxS]

By who's metrics? Yours? Who are you? And pray tell, what does being a "Top PVPer" entail? Are you one of the 50 billion WoW Arena kids who seem to think that achieving Gladiator status in a game with a GCD. with cookie-cutter group composition means anything at all? Please...

 

I love how people's fragile egos won't even let someone talk about PvP without having to disparage someone.

You sir, are the hero this thread needs.

[shadowfoxe]

lets see ways to close the distance that republic vs imperial balances have created some servers stagnating in balance to the point of so lopsided warzones that it reduces players queuing and server decay in players.

my server has such a lopsided bias to imperial that now that the imperials have been playing D3 the queues are unreasonable. attempting to level a alt character just feels futile for knowing that once you hit 50 you might as well forget about having a c hance against heavily geared players.

Rated warzones might favor hardcore players but the way that it will match players creates their having to be LAX in the match ups and exploits such as in world of warcraft. teams would mess with the automatch up system by taking high end gear players and adding 1 player that is lower to lower the rating average and ROLL the other teams enough to gear up that one player.

[taugrimtaugrim]

From his "Gaming History" page it looks like he has played mmos for about 20 years as a PvPer

 

That would be quite a feat, considering that MMOs didn't exist 20 years ago (i.e. 1992).

 

Let me do the arithmetic for you:

2012 - 20 = 1992

 

I've been playing mass-market MMOs since 2005, starting with Knight Online.

 

2012 - 2005 = 7

 

I've been PVP'ing for 7 years.

Edited May 25, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Groncho]

That would be quite a feat, considering that MMOs didn't exist 20 years ago (i.e. 1992).

 

Let me do the arithmetic for you:

2012 - 20 = 1992

 

I've been playing mass-market MMOs since 2005, starting with Knight Online.

 

2012 - 2005 = 7

 

I've been PVP'ing for 7 years.

 

Is ok, u didnt have to put that , ur post and article in debate is pretty accurate

I started PvPing with RainboxSix Online in the MsN gaming Zone and i dont recall the year...maybe 1997-98

[taugrimtaugrim]

Is ok, u didnt have to put that , ur post and article in debate is pretty accurate

I started PvPing with RainboxSix Online in the MsN gaming Zone and i dont recall the year...maybe 1997-98

 

Understood.

 

I *usually* avoid responding to trolls (waste of time), but that one was too tempting to pass up.

[Derian]

By who's metrics? Yours? Who are you? And pray tell, what does being a "Top PVPer" entail? Are you one of the 50 billion WoW Arena kids who seem to think that achieving Gladiator status in a game with a GCD. with cookie-cutter group composition means anything at all? Please...

 

I love how people's fragile egos won't even let someone talk about PvP without having to disparage someone.

 

I have to agree. Also to Taugrim's Credit, I remember PVPing with him when he would stream a few times (this was back in closed beta, post the NDA being lieft) and he played a lowbie Sentinel. He realized Sentinel was a good class when the vast, and I do mean vast, majority thought it was a bad class. This puts him above 95% of the forum posters here.

 

While I do not agree with him on everything, since following what he's said about Swtor since I guess Novemberish? I certainly respect his opinion as a competent player. He also made a Vanguard when everyone at first thought it sucked.

 

WoW PVP ability means little to me. I had many arguments with people in closed Beta about how they were WoW Gladiators or whatever, and Deemed the SEntinel/Marauder class to be under powered. Why? Because in WoW, or wherever they came from, they were awesome at melee dps, but in SWTOR they were terrible. Therefore the problem was with the class.

 

Funny how that works. Sentinel/Marauder has changed very little since Zen/Berserk and all the CDs got added in about October I believe.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Derian

[clearsighted]

I have to agree. Also to Taugrim's Credit, I remember PVPing with him when he would stream a few times (this was back in closed beta, post the NDA being lieft) and he played a lowbie Sentinel. He realized Sentinel was a good class when the vast, and I do mean vast, majority thought it was a bad class. This puts him above 95% of the forum posters here.

 

While I do not agree with him on everything, since following what he's said about Swtor since I guess Novemberish? I certainly respect his opinion as a competent player. He also made a Vanguard when everyone at first thought it sucked.

 

WoW PVP ability means little to me. I had many arguments with people in closed Beta about how they were WoW Gladiators or whatever, and Deemed the SEntinel/Marauder class to be under powered. Why? Because in WoW, or wherever they came from, they were awesome at melee dps, but in SWTOR they were terrible. Therefore the problem was with the class.

 

Funny how that works. Sentinel/Marauder has changed very little since Zen/Berserk and all the CDs got added in about October I believe.

 

I won't claim that Taugrim is a more intelligent and insightful person than 95% of today's MMO's players, but the things he posts definitely are more intelligent and insightful than 99% of the other crap being written about MMOs and PvP in general.

[BillyGoatGruff]

Taugrim is a better MMO PVPer than I am . So I have watched some of his videos to learn how to improve my game. I don't have a greater endorsement than that to give.