(From Taugrim.com)SWTOR Has Repeated RIFT’s Mistakes in Endgame PVP

[Orangerascal]

If a poll was to be taken as to the class most needing love from developers, it would be the Guardian/Jugg. I would suggest levelling your Guard to 50 and then spending serious time in end game warzones before attributing them with "too much damage". I also have a lvl 50 Tankasin and 46 Pyro (amongst others), and they by far outclass any spec the Guardian/Jugg has to offer. There is no "free kill" with the Guardian/Jugg.

 

Like I said, it's fine to do the damage, just don't do it in a tanking stance. That is the main problem. Soresu from is ridiculously good.

 

Also I intend to get to 50 (a few levels away) and do the horrible catch-up grind don't worry. I don't think my opinion of the guardian will change.

[AmorphousCro]

 

Most of the WH-geared folks on my server have an alt or two in vanilla BM, and the effectiveness gap between their chars is a *lot* less than you're suggesting. BM gear gives you the tools to put your skills into play. Of course, there are also BM-geared folks who are totally useless, but putting them in WH wouldn't help either.

 

 

Agreed, but my comparison isn't full BM to WH, it's Recruit with 2-4 pieces of BM compared to full WH. The effectiveness gap between mostly Recruit to WH is obvious.

 

People are suggesting that if Taugrim had invested his comms into 2 pieces of BM, he would have been much better off. They don't like his opinion, so they tear it down by insinuating he is stupid for having purchased the weapon first. I really don't see how 2 pieces of BM gear would have given him the juice to go toe to toe with WHs, thereby validating the argument that he was in fact foolish to purchase the weapon.

 

Your opinion of commandos is noted, and seconded.

[nokizaru]

Like I said, it's fine to do the damage, just don't do it in a tanking stance. That is the main problem. Soresu from is ridiculously good.

.

 

"Ridiculously good" at what, exactly? The Guardian isn't "ridiculously good" at anything. Maras/Sents are ridiculously good at DPS, Healing Ops/Scoundrels are ridiculously good at pumping out heals, but there isn't anything the Guardian does that could possibly be construed as "ridiculously good". If you run in Soresu form, you have good survivability at the expense of any meaningful DPS. You aren't going to beat a Tankasin or Powertech if they're equally geared and with a player of similar skill to you. I regularly decimate Soresu spec Guardians/Juggs with both my Mara and Sent. You are also going to do nothing in the way of threatening healers.

 

And while the damage outputs of Vig and Focus are decent, they have none of the survivability, versatility and mobility of their tank counterparts in the Assassin and Powertech.

 

You picked the wrong class to highlight as being even remotely close to OP status.

[Paelo]

Like I said, it's fine to do the damage, just don't do it in a tanking stance. That is the main problem. Soresu from is ridiculously good.

.

 

Tell me you're kidding, please.

 

There is nothing ridiculously good about Soresu form. The only tank stance that needs to be changed/slightly nerfed is for Sins/Shadows.

 

Having that 50% damage and self heal proc is stupid. It's not needed and it contributes to make them OP in 1 vs 1's.

[Orangerascal]

"Ridiculously good" at what, exactly? The Guardian isn't "ridiculously good" at anything. Maras/Sents are ridiculously good at DPS, Healing Ops/Scoundrels are ridiculously good at pumping out heals, but there isn't anything the Guardian does that could possibly be construed as "ridiculously good". If you run in Soresu form, you have good survivability at the expense of any meaningful DPS. You aren't going to beat a Tankasin or Powertech if they're equally geared and with a player of similar skill to you. I regularly decimate Soresu spec Guardians/Juggs with both my Mara and Sent. You are also going to do nothing in the way of threatening healers.

 

And while the damage outputs of Vig and Focus are decent, they have none of the survivability, versatility and mobility of their tank counterparts in the Assassin and Powertech.

 

You picked the wrong class to highlight as being even remotely close to OP status.

 

Of course I did, the class you're playing cannot possible be OP. But when other people play it ... oh boy

 

I also highlight the excruciating bad fault in your argument. The Guardian is without a doubt the best ball carrier in the game because of these attributes you said were their faults. I'm sorry you can't see this. A good guardian is an instant win in huttball.

 

As for 'Soresu Form', it is ridiculously good at keeping your toon alive. 90% of the damage in this game is in fact mitigated so getting your armour levels to ridiculous proportions not to mention having a passive 6% reduction to all damage on top of that does just that. You gain very little from switching away from it, which is why I and most guardians run it.

 

This is the problem with the tanking classes atm. Their tanking stances are too good for pvp, because of their ridiculously high mitigation abilities. Vanguards with Ion cell and Shadows with combat technique suffer from the same problem. At least combat technique does reduce some damage.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Paelo]

I also highlight the excruciating bad fault in your argument. The Guardian is without a doubt the best ball carrier in the game because of these attributes you said we their faults. I'm sorry you can't see this. A good guardian is an instant win in huttball.

.

 

KALOO KALAY!!

 

Rejoice and dance in the streets Juggers and Guards! We have found our purpose in TOR, to carry the ball in the least popular warzone in game!

 

 

Sweet jeebus, I've seen some weak arguments before but.....jeebus.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Paelo

[Malanoth]

Taugrim does make a lot of sense and seems objective enough about things. My only input is to say that PvP should NEVER EVER be about gear as a primary focus. Player versus Player (Group PvP) should be more about Skill, Teamwork, Communication, Class Knowledge (of yours and your opponents), the ability to anticipate moves and good usage of class cooldowns. THEN GEAR should fit in somewhere around the last two;

 

SKILL > TEAMWORK > COMMS > KNOWLEDGE > GEAR >ANTICIPATION > COOLDOWNS

 

But in SWTOR its too far up on the list (as in TOP of);

 

GEAR > SKILL > TEAMWORK > COMMS > KNOWLEDGE > ANTICIPATION > COOLDOWNS

 

And that is just plain wrong. Award special weapons, the most coolest mounts ever, along with titles and what not for winning and progressing in PvP but armor should not have such a deciding and overiding factor in PvP like it does. balance the playing filed better and let teams duke it out uisng skill, comms, teamwork, etc, you know the things that matter in PvP.

[JediDuckling]

And yeah i think most of us agree.Good blog by Taugrim as always.This man knows more

about your own PvP BioWare then your PvP team.

 

http://taugrim.com/2012/05/20/swtor-has-repeated-rifts-mistakes-in-endgame-pvp/

 

what he has basicly stated is what i kept saying long before that was posted lol.

the thing is bioware are not listening.

[Averran]

Hello everyone,

 

We have recently had to clean up a number of posts in this thread that were in violation of our Rules of Conduct and wanted to remind everyone to stay on topic while avoiding the following:

 

• Personal Attacks or Insults.
   
  
• Creating posts for the purpose of derailing the topic, eliciting negative reactions or spreading false information.
   
  
• Replying in a manner that adds nothing constructive to the conversation. Particularly when addressing players and not the topic itself.
  

 

We appreciate your cooperation in this matter and will continue to monitor the conversation. Above all else please remember that we are here to help with issues that come up, you need not respond to them and extend the argument. In short, flag don't flame. This thread is not being closed, please feel free to carry on so long as you abide by the forum rules.

[anticept]

Hello everyone,

 

We have recently had to clean up a number of posts in this thread that were in violation of our Rules of Conduct and wanted to remind everyone to stay on topic while avoiding the following:

 

• Personal Attacks or Insults.
   
  
• Creating posts for the purpose of derailing the topic, eliciting negative reactions or spreading false information.
   
  
• Replying in a manner that adds nothing constructive to the conversation. Particularly when addressing players and not the topic itself.
  

 

We appreciate your cooperation in this matter and will continue to monitor the conversation. Above all else please remember that we are here to help with issues that come up, you need not respond to them and extend the argument. In short, flag don't flame. This thread is not being closed, please feel free to carry on so long as you abide by the forum rules.

 

Damn BW just nerfed this thread wish they´d be as fast with new content on pvp.

[taugrimtaugrim]

what he has basicly stated is what i kept saying long before that was posted lol

 

I intentionally did not post my blog article on the forums here, because I didn't want to initiate a flamefest.

 

FWIW, I've been blogging my concerns - based on predictions and actual experience - about Patch 1.2 since the notes about the patch first hit the PTS back in mid-March.

 

the thing is bioware are not listening.

 

BioWare reads every thread posted on their forums. I think many players do not realize how heavily BW has invested in their Community Management team.

 

I have been a huge of fan from SWTOR since I first tried the game last October at New York Comic Con. I was excited about the game and the team working on it.

 

I've had the opportunity to talk in person (and over the phone) with various members of the BW teams, from Writing, Design, Community Management, and Live Services, and IMO they are collectively some of the most passionate and friendly developers I've ever met from gaming companies. They're awesome people.

 

For those of you who don't know me, let me simply say this: BioWare has delivered some amazing things in terms of PVP. The warzone design, in particular Huttball and Novare Coast, is highly innovative. The combat animations / sound are epic. The 10-49 bracket is arguably the most fun PVP battleground experience I've had in any game.

 

I'm just bummed because I think 1.2 as far as the PVP was a step backwards. The Interface Editor, AH changes, other content changes, etc were all good things in 1.2. But IMO PVP has taken a significant hit, esp at endgame, for the reasons I stated in my article.

 

I just hope that things get sorted out fast enough to make a meaningful difference to the playerbase, to retain a critical mass of subscribers.

Edited May 23, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[taugrimtaugrim]

not sure why he only bought the warhero main hand....... he would have gotten a much better return on expertise if he had bought 5+ pieces of battlemaster gear

 

You would propose downtrading RWZ commendations to WZ commendations to buy BM gear? Downtrading is 1:1. Trading up from WZ to RWZ commendations is 3:1.

 

If you are suggesting, for example, that I should have traded in my 3.5k RWZ comms for 3.5k WZ comms to buy Battlemaster gear, when 3.5k RWZ comms are worth 10.5k WZ comms, well, let's just say you and I have a fundamentally different understanding of basic arithmetic. I can't say it any other way without potentially getting flagged by the mods.

 

It's far more efficient to spend RWZ comms on WH gear.

I had 4-pc BM within a few days of dinging 50.

Edited May 23, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[GrumpySwe]

You would propose downtrading RWZ commendations to WZ commendations to buy BM gear? Downtrading is 1:1. Trading up from WZ to RWZ commendations is 3:1.

 

If you are suggesting, for example, that I should have traded in my 3.5k RWZ comms for 3.5k WZ comms to buy Battlemaster gear, when 3.5k RWZ comms are worth 10.5k WZ comms, well, let's just say you and I have a fundamentally different understanding of basic arithmetic. I can't say it any other way without potentially getting flagged by the mods.

 

It's far more efficient to spend RWZ comms on WH gear.

I had 4-pc BM within a few days of dinging 50.

Personally I would have bought the warhero implants and earpieces for your RWZ commendations as they dont need the battlemaster piece as a trade in.

[Xsorus]

I actually dislike some of the comparisons to Rift End Game PvP, because lets face it, Rifts End Game PvP is superior to this games End game PvP.

 

A. Rift has more maps then SWTOR, and other then Huttball, everyone of them is flat out better then SWTOR's Version.

 

B. Rift actually has character advancement in PvP, not just gear Advancement.

 

C. Rift actually had open world PvP, Not only that, it was actually functional and could actually be played.

 

D. Rift is about to have 3 Faction PvP, 1.9 Patch includes a Massive reworked Stillmoor where 3 Factions go head to head over it.

 

E. It has actual Cross Server War Fronts, It's also got a Merc system where if one side doesn't have enough players, it'll switch the people from the other faction over to fill up the map.

 

F. None of the maps are limited to just 8v8 cause the game can only support 8v8 without it lagging out.

 

So in regards to Rift, SWTOR wishes it could even begin to compete with Rift's PvP mistakes, let alone it's success.

[Xsorus]

Of course I did, the class you're playing cannot possible be OP. But when other people play it ... oh boy

 

I also highlight the excruciating bad fault in your argument. The Guardian is without a doubt the best ball carrier in the game because of these attributes you said were their faults. I'm sorry you can't see this. A good guardian is an instant win in huttball.

 

As for 'Soresu Form', it is ridiculously good at keeping your toon alive. 90% of the damage in this game is in fact mitigated so getting your armour levels to ridiculous proportions not to mention having a passive 6% reduction to all damage on top of that does just that. You gain very little from switching away from it, which is why I and most guardians run it.

 

This is the problem with the tanking classes atm. Their tanking stances are too good for pvp, because of their ridiculously high mitigation abilities. Vanguards with Ion cell and Shadows with combat technique suffer from the same problem. At least combat technique does reduce some damage.

 

You understand no one is complaining about Guardians or Powertech's who run their Tank Stance Right?

 

When someone says "Pyro Powertech is overpowered" They're not talking about someone running ion cell, they're talking about someone running CGC. A Pyro Tech is not tanky by any standard.

 

The only class right now that is able to do someone decent damage and tank at same time, is the Assassin, and even then, They're winning long drawn out fights with moderate dps/good tanking/moderate healing.

 

They're not out dpsing any actual DPSer, You will never see an assassin who's tank spec with DPS gear approach anywhere near the DPS of a Pyro, Marauder, Sniper.

 

As for Powertech's in general, All Bioware has to do to make Pyro Less played is make Shield Tech actually viable in PvP, i mean it's alright...but its not really needed when you can just explode people guarded now cause of the DPS in the game.

[Orangerascal]

When someone says "Pyro Powertech is overpowered" They're not talking about someone running ion cell, they're talking about someone running CGC. A Pyro Tech is not tanky by any standard.

 

I beg to differ, a tank vanguard in dps gear is miles ahead of the commando in survivability and their sustained damage is almost as good. It's ridiculously easy to heal these tanking classes and have videos of myself and our vanguard holding nodes against 4 or 5 people.

 

Anyway I'm sure the metrics show something is wrong. So it would be moot to argue further. Having leveled a guardian, a scoundrel and a sage, I understand that their is a discrepancy is the tanking stance. Don't be surprised to see a nerf to these stances in pvp or a dps buff to the healer classes (op, sorc, merc).

 

If you care to discuss this further please open a new thread.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Xsorus]

I beg to differ, a tank vanguard in dps gear is miles ahead of the commando in survivability and their sustained damage is almost as good. It's ridiculously easy to heal these tanking classes and have videos of myself and our vanguard holding nodes against 4 or 5 people.

 

Anyway I'm sure the metrics show something is wrong. So it would be moot to argue further. Having leveled a guardian, a scoundrel and a sage, I understand that their is a discrepancy is the tanking stance. Don't be surprised to see a nerf to these stances in pvp or a dps buff to the healer classes (op, sorc, merc).

 

If you care to discuss this further please open a new thread.

 

Rofl...

 

A. a Tank Vanguard in DPS gear puts out no where near the DPS of a Commando who's specced DPS. Survivability will come down to what spec the Commando is using, if he's using a healing type spec, he will last longer in a fight then a Tank Vanguard in DPS gear.

 

B. If a Tank Vanguard in dps gear/healer is holding a point against 5-6 people for any length of time greater then 10-15 seconds, That is 5-6 terribly geared players on your crap server. You realize that I could absolutely plow through you and your Guard bot vanguard in dps gear on my Pyro, let alone if you're unlucky to run across me and a second DPS.

 

C. If your Vanguard is specced Tank Spec, and in DPS gear, in closing he's an idiot.. There is another spec that is VASTLY superior to it if you want to play the DPS tank. It's called Tactics, and that is what you play if you want to play that type of character, Simply load up on DPS gear, switch to the Tank Stance, and play Tactic Spec. You're not able to come close to the DPS of a real DPS, but you can off tank and provide guard and you do vastly more damage then the actual Tank Line with DPS gear.

[Torcer]

I

I just hope that things get sorted out fast enough to make a meaningful difference to the playerbase, to retain a critical mass of subscribers.

 

Most servers already don’t have that critical mass of subscribers, and I mean MOST. Your issues are legitimate, but they all pale too the lack of server population, which is not enough to support healthy PvP (or PvE for that matter). On my server, and several others, there’s effectively a two hour window during which you can PvP. Prior to and after that prime window, QUES can last HOURS. When you finally do PvP, it’s against the same people, often against the same Pre-Made that’s effectively farming the rest of the PvP community. 1.2 was a huge step backwards, but low server population is by far a greater issue.

[Orangerascal]

C. If your Vanguard is specced Tank Spec, and in DPS gear, in closing he's an idiot.. There is another spec that is VASTLY superior to it if you want to play the DPS tank. It's called Tactics, and that is what you play if you want to play that type of character, Simply load up on DPS gear, switch to the Tank Stance, and play Tactic Spec. You're not able to come close to the DPS of a real DPS, but you can off tank and provide guard and you do vastly more damage then the actual Tank Line with DPS gear.

 

I'm not going to pretend I know anything about the vanguard, but I trust my people and their specs much more than I trust your opinion. Our premade does fairly well ... how about you mr. anonymous, how do you guys do?

 

Also "off-tank", I think you've mistaken this for a pve forum.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Baalseraph]

I did play against him in WAR and he was good but what class he played there again? Wasn't it some fotm class?

 

I must admit it takes good pvp experience to take advantage of anything in MMO that helps you to be good PVPer but what he wrote about GS was all wrong. Or maybe I should start to think that GS is new FOTM since Taugrim decided to roll that?

 

Or... Taugrim is.... CHUCK NORRIS!!! That would explain his awesomness!

 

Actually he played Bright Wizard for the first 5 or so weeks, found it too faceroll and re-rolled into Swordmaster, a class at the time everyone thought was weak. Why? Because everyone thought it was weak. He rolled gunslinger because of the negative feedback he was reading about it on forums. About how it was weak. You are really showing your *** here but I'm guessing this isn't a new experience for you.

[richardya]

Doesn't the following quote contradict your issue with recruit gear?

 

I had 4-pc BM within a few days of dinging 50.

 

The gap between recruit gear and augmented WH gear is insane, I agree.

However, the time to get battlemaster is really quick so...who cares?

 

If the issue is not concerning the PvP'er (you and I) but rather someone who, is new to PVP, and wants to try it out in Recruit gear, then I would agree. This individual would not like his initial foray into PvP. However, when you are brand new to PvP the learning curve is pretty steep and I would imagine that your first ever PvP match in (theoretically) full WH gear would be a challenge as well that most would not enjoy.

Edited May 23, 2012 by richardya

[Hartburn]

The gap between recruit gear and augmented WH is insane, I agree. However, the time to get battlemaster is really quick so...who cares? If the issue is not concerning the PvP'er (you and I) but rather someone who, is new to PVP, and wants to try it out in Recruit gear then I would agree. This individual would not like his initial forray in PvP. But.. for the PvP'er the time in recruit is minimal. However, when you are brand new to PvP the learning curve is pretty steep anyway and I would imagine that your firstever PvP match in (theoretically) in full WH gear would be a challenge.

 

Except for those of us on low pop servers that don't get queue's very often. I just hit 50 on 1 of my toons the other day, bought the Battlemaster weapon and rest is recruit gear. Ran around for 3 hours last night doing dailies and had 2 queue pops, both with 6 people on our side. How am I supposed to get BM gear in a few days at that rate? And I am a fairly casual player as is due to having a family and such. Recruit gear is way too far off from BM/WH geared players, there shouldn't be that gap in PvP ever. Gear shouldn't matter that much.

[AlyxDinas]

Doesn't the following quote contradict your issue with recruit gear?

 

Not to jump in too much here but I don't think it does. On servers with low populations and slow WZ queues, players (especially casual players) will not be able to enjoy an overly fast rate of upwards mobility in gear.

[Pekish]

personally a player that choose the class because is weak or strong and not because he likes it it's doing it all wrong

 

and a lot of player choosing the weak class they do so to hide their mediocrity and blame the "weak" class if they sux

choose the one you like if is op wont be op forever and give ur best.

 

all the rest is (as the need of writing a analysis of a game not on the game forum) an exercise in futility why if u really care about the game and if u really like the game and the community don't you feel the need to share your view in the forum of the game u are actually playing?

Edited May 23, 2012 by Pekish

[taugrimtaugrim]

Actually he played Bright Wizard for the first 5 or so weeks, found it too faceroll and re-rolled into Swordmaster, a class at the time everyone thought was weak. Why? Because everyone thought it was weak. He rolled gunslinger because of the negative feedback he was reading about it on forums. About how it was weak..

 

Yep.

 

I rolled a Sentinel alt back in mid-January, but after the repeated comments from players in my Twitch Chat Room and elsewhere on social media and on the SWTOR forums about how much Gunslingers sucked, in particular the Sharpshooter/Marksmanship tree, so I decided to roll a Sharpshooter Gunslinger alt and reached level 10 on March 1st.

 

This was before Patch 1.2 notes went up on the PTS in mid-March, in which GS/Sniper got some buffs, and well before the 5% damage buffs (which were unneeded in PVP) were made after 1.2 went live.

 

I have often played and blogged about classes that people regarded as broken or underpowered, when I believed that they were viable. This is how I got into blogging in the first place. The community often has a very narrow view of what works and doesn't work.

 

An example of this was Prot Pally in Cataclysm. Prot was very good in PVP in WotLK, but when Cataclysm launched most Prot Pally players gave up the spec for dead and useless in PVP and the Arena.

 

So I played my Prot with a friend (Enh Shammy), we got to 2k rating in 2v2 after sorting out how to play our unorthodox comp. Doubters then predictably stated "well so what you won't be able to do that in another bracket" so we found a Resto Druid who hadn't yet reached 2k in any bracket, and the 3 of us got to 2k in the first week of playing together (61 matches).

 

At any rate, it's rather entertaining to read the amount of misinformation that people post about me. My gaming experience (which really meaningfully started in 2005 for MMORPGs) has been well documented. Am I the "best" PVP player? No. Am I competent? I've had opponents and allies tell me I am across games. And I am very willing to share my understanding of mechanics and classes with other players.