(From Taugrim.com)SWTOR Has Repeated RIFT’s Mistakes in Endgame PVP

[Lord_Karsk]

And yeah i think most of us agree.Good blog by Taugrim as always.This man knows more

about your own PvP BioWare then your PvP team.

 

http://taugrim.com/2012/05/20/swtor-has-repeated-rifts-mistakes-in-endgame-pvp/

[LoKiei]

I don't care what Taug has to say.

[cashogy]

not sure why he only bought the warhero main hand....... he would have gotten a much better return on expertise if he had bought 5+ pieces of battlemaster gear

[ehtom]

Why is this guy important and why should I care about his opinions on balance?

 

From his "Gaming History" page it looks like he has played mmos for about 20 years as a PvPer, yet never been a top level player (or even high level).

 

For anyone to claim they know absolutely what is balanced and what is not, especially when there is not currently any ranked so we can see what the best do best with is arrogant at best.

[flem]

The post shows a distinct lack of perspective.

 

That blissful land of pre-1.2 PvP was *way more* grindy and imbalanced than its current state. In fact, for the first month, geared out 50s were farming lowlevels in quest greens. After that, you had to play lots and lots of Champ bag lottery and then Battlemaster bag lottery before you were geared. Now, a week of dailies and you're in full BM or as close as doesn't matter. If Ranked WZs were actually live, you'd be in full War Hero amazingly soon after that.

 

My guess: he was an early leveler and PvPer with his previous character, and missed how nasty it used to be to start PvP a few weeks or a month after everyone else. Being a recruit-clad newbie is much, much more forgiving.

Edited May 21, 2012 by flem

[dstossm]

And yeah i think most of us agree.Good blog by Taugrim as always.This man knows more

about your own PvP BioWare then your PvP team.

 

http://taugrim.com/2012/05/20/swtor-has-repeated-rifts-mistakes-in-endgame-pvp/

 

I would have to say he is spot on. Between the grindfest of gearing and the post-1.2 burst-fest pvp that is more reminiscent of a first-person shooter then a skillful, strategy based fight the pvp in SWTOR is becoming less and less appealing. Sadly, for me at least, this was the main reason I continued to play. I find myself scratching my head as the PVP here was one of the best I'd every played (not perfect, but pretty damn good). Then 1.2 comes around and all that good work gets replaced by garbage.

[Xerain]

For anyone to claim they know absolutely what is balanced and what is not, especially when there is not currently any ranked so we can see what the best do best with is arrogant at best.

 

Yes at best.

[flem]

Addendum: if the PvP experience has gotten stale for some, it's probably because Bioware removed the one change-of-pace experience that used to amuse everyone -- Ilum. It may have sucked on some servers, but where it worked, it worked. It definitely made Republic on my server stronger.

[Soull]

actually, taugrim has pretty solid information. he might not be an a-one elite professional pvp'er like most of you think you are, but he does know his stuff. i'm not a professionial football player, but i know that the game was a lot better to watch before roger godell turned it into the No Fun League.

 

pre 1.2, if you got into a double preform vs. another double preform, you had to work for the win. you had to coordinate your dps'ers to take out the opposing team's healers, set up interrupts, and perform hard switches to get the jump on the other team. post 1.2, you just need a couple of decently geared dps.

 

pre 1.2, if you saw someone guarded, you tried to separate them from the tank so you could have a chance of taking them out. post 1.2, guarded and being healed? no problem, just burst them down.

[Dmasterr]

Why is this guy important and why should I care about his opinions on balance?

 

From his "Gaming History" page it looks like he has played mmos for about 20 years as a PvPer, yet never been a top level player (or even high level).

 

For anyone to claim they know absolutely what is balanced and what is not, especially when there is not currently any ranked so we can see what the best do best with is arrogant at best.

 

To PvP for 20 years, and never rise above average status. Is the epitome of fails.

 

That alone is reason enough for not caring what he has to say about balance in any game related issues.... ever

Edited May 21, 2012 by Dmasterr

[filipesantana]

Wrong...

 

1-Swtor pvp is terribad compared to ANY..but i srsly mean ANY other pvp option in the online gaming universe.

2-the skillcap/skillflor of this game is ridiculously low..simple mechanincs..3-6 buttons usable in pvp for every class..wz zerg...ps-Wz coordination over TS/Skype/W.e IS NOT ANY FORM OF SKILL whatsoever,if anything its the bare minimum to actually play pvp in any game..

 

 

3-There is NOT a single Pro player playing swtor pvp..At all...no matter what gamming background..wow,dota,lol,etc...NONE is actively playing swtor pvp and thast pretty self explanatory (pro players,as in good enough he is actualy payed to play)

 

 

4-Swtor pvp is amusing at best...far from being any good pvp wise...anyone still playing it "for real" is just doing it in falce perception/hopes of actualy being good....but you cant be good in a game where all the good players left can you?

 

 

5-Ranked Wz mighgt...MIGHT make it better...highly doubtfull

 

 

6-(and personal rage moment)..To all the swtor pvp heros out there...your either 1-playing your first mmo or online game ever....or...2-u failed miserably at other online games pvp after several rerrols into the fotm class(and still failing) so you finally rerolled THE GAME...Swtor is getting F2p by xmas,by then some people might come back..and this might be fun again

Edited May 21, 2012 by Ellvaan
Quoted removed content

[GrumpySwe]

To PvP for 20 years, and never rise above average status. Is the epitome of fails.

 

That alone is reason enough for not caring what he has to say about balance in any game related issues.... ever

Actually being a good player and being able to comment on game balance has nothing to do with each other.

It not like coaches could actually do everything he wants his players to do but he knows what needs to be done, same thing here you can comment about balance even if your not a "pro" yourself. You do need to watch/talk to good players tho but youd need to do that regardless of your own "skill".

 

Not saying he is completely right, for example I thought the grind was far more annoying in pre 1.2 unlike this taugrim guy.

[aboynamedsue]

Taugrim has the amazing ability to describe what he sees and experiences clearly and concisely. It is unfortunate he took so long to come to this conclusion and along the way, trolled new 50s who didn't purchase the useless recruit gear. Regardless, I agree with what he posted on his blog. Hopefully some positive changes will be coming soon.

[Cempa]

"SWTOR is losing players, and it’s not simply because other games have launched. As BioWare has previously stated, PVP has been (unexpectedly) very popular ever since launch. But the majority of players I’ve talked to agree that the quality of the PVP has tanked with 1.2. I loved it pre-1.2. I can’t find the word to describe it now. Disappointing? Predictable? Grindy? Whatever the word is, it isn’t a positive one." -Taugrim.com

 

Though I agree with what you are saying in full I also recognize that is is indeed intentional by BioWare. The end goal is keep the cash flow flowing and manage whatever arises as it comes up.

 

They copied Wold of Warcraft in making a gear based fantasy MMO (you want to call it Sci-fi be my guest) and changed it just enough as to claim it is different.

 

Star Wars will have fan boys who like glow sticks and much like Rift they will always have a number of servers with subs.

 

MY PREDICTION: Guild Wars 2 will have more than double the active player of this game if not more.

[BambulaGTS]

You can buy full BM from scratch in 3-4 days of holidays.

 

Even on such "populated" server as The Ravager (EU).

 

That guy for some reason bought WH gun instead of BMs, knowing he will need that pieces for WH trade-ins anyways.

 

He just wanted to melt faces with his new shiny gun but did not bothered to do some basic math.

[MaxLiao]

Actually being a good player and being able to comment on game balance has nothing to do with each other.

It not like coaches could actually do everything he wants his players to do but he knows what needs to be done, same thing here you can comment about balance even if your not a "pro" yourself. You do need to watch/talk to good players tho but youd need to do that regardless of your own "skill".

 

Not saying he is completely right, for example I thought the grind was far more annoying in pre 1.2 unlike this taugrim guy.

I'm not a huge fan of Taugrim. I think he's a selfish PvPer - looking out for himself more than his team (in my opinion), and I did not think his article here was spot on. It was good, but I'd argue a few points with him. (eg. PvP in this game has always sucked - even before 1.2 - as WoW-based games aren't made for PvP. Anyway, I digress ...)

 

What GrumpySwe said is spot on. You don't have to be the best pwnage player to know the right concepts and to understand what is needed to win. Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

[warultima]

Coming from Rift myself only know Taugrim as "Warrior guide writer" which is his forum title.

I have a slight different experience with Rift vs SWTOR PvP than he does.

1st of all I really dont feel WH gear has that much of a power gap compare to BM.

However recruit gear do have larger power gap vs BM gear NOT really the power gap per se more like endurance advantage since many recruit gear actually have BETTER stat distribution than BM.

 

Also it took my marauder about 3 days worth of PvP to go from full recruit to full BM. The grind? it takes average of 13 STRAIGHT LOSES to get 1 piece of BM, (or just 8 wins rounded up). WH gear on the other hand takes around 5 to 6 times longer per piece (mainly because theres no way to get Ranked WZ comm directly due to lack of real rWZ assuming rWZ awards similar commandation then each WH pieces will take about 16 ranked wins to get.

 

Rift? Took me little over 2000 warfronts + grinding each and every single PvP dailies religiously to go from Rank 1 to Rank 8 (which later got rescaled to Rank 1-40 that REQUIRED former rank capped players to REGRIND from Rank 38.5 back to rank 40).. And oh do I mention you also need to grind different WZ factions reputations to get OTHER pvp gears AND grind PvP Rifts to get PvP crystals that provides set bonus... Rift PvP is easily 10 times more grindy than SWTOR...

 

The PvP grinding intensity of swtor is still super "softcore" compare to Rift. Also the PvP stat (valor) in Rift is super ultra powerful. Full set pvp armor in rift + accssories giving player 50+% mitigation... YES this means if you wear PvE gear to PvP you will be taking DOUBLE the damage which is pretty much a 1 shot from some classes like Pyro Mages.

 

PvP warriors in Rift is super face roll (properly specced the warriors in Rift can be played to 80% capacity with just 2 buttons (1 AP Spammer and 1 Finisher Spammer of course the pvp are mainly macro driven). Guess what that being said Taugrim played a...... WARRIOR (aka waqqior by many Rift form posters because they complain about the littlest thing you can imaging while they are arguably the most facerolled class in Rift).

 

Not to dispute his creditability in his OPINIONS. But sorry his article is very inaccurate compare to my PvP experience in TOR (tho faily accurate in the Rift part).

 

1.2 hurt PvP in TOR yes, but its also NOT the biggest reason why people are quitting. Its due to imo perma light servers and super slow pvp queues (Rift on average with mercenary system + xshard queuing had an average queue time of 30 seconds to 1 minute and 30 seconds during primetime and this is with RANK MATCHING AND PREMADE MATCHING IN PLACE).

 

If BW would do a server merger/free xfer/xshard queue when 1.2 hit, the sub number wouldnt have dropped so quickly...

 

Not only PvPers, those 90% perma light servers also affects PvEers due to many guilds unable to recruit more members to replace the members they lost to Diablo 3/Tera/Back to WoW.

Edited May 21, 2012 by warultima

[svartalfimposter]

as WoW-based games aren't made for PvP.

w

 

I completely disagree. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I completely disagree

[AidenPryde]

I've always thought pro gamers, and those who compliment them, etc.... Are stupid.

 

Honestly games are meant to be fun. Once it crosses that line into becoming a sport it no longer becomes fun for the majority of participants.

 

Personally I think he is spot on about Expertise. I have been arguing for months that it be removed from the game and the cost of PvP gear to be doubled to allow for PvE and PvE gear to be more normalized.

 

I guess I'm in an competitive PvP guild on Port Nowhere (many members have canceled their subs because of no ranked WZs), but I get tired of banging 4k crits on Recruit geared players.

 

This is precisely why I haven't leveled up my other alts to 50. This is because frankly, I would get frustrated, and probably cancel my sub much sooner.

 

I will be giving Mechwarrior Online a try, and Planetside 2 after that. I've always been good at FPSes on large scales (I don't consider Counter Strike to be a skillful game because there is no team play at all and everything is rather predictable. True skill comes from being able to adapt to changing situations which is what larger games like Planetside 1 - hopefully PS2 as well -, Battlefield, and WW2OL require).

[Dmasterr]

Actually being a good player and being able to comment on game balance has nothing to do with each other.

It not like coaches could actually do everything he wants his players to do but he knows what needs to be done, same thing here you can comment about balance even if your not a "pro" yourself. You do need to watch/talk to good players tho but youd need to do that regardless of your own "skill".

 

Not saying he is completely right, for example I thought the grind was far more annoying in pre 1.2 unlike this taugrim guy.

 

If gaming was a physical sport, then yes. coaches have the knowledge but lack the physical ability that comes with extensive training.

 

Sadly for him, and your bad analogy, gaming is all about knowledge and how to apply it. If he lacks that, he can't comment on game balance.

 

You see, physical sports are two dimensional, they require mental ability and physical ability. You may lack one and excel at another, Gaming however only has 1 dimension, mental ability . If you lack that, well you're screwed.

[Xerain]

I should start a blog since i've played plenty of MMO's just for the pvp over the last 10 years... maybe I can be considered credible for that too.

[anticept]

Why is this guy important and why should I care about his opinions on balance?

 

From his "Gaming History" page it looks like he has played mmos for about 20 years as a PvPer, yet never been a top level player (or even high level).

 

For anyone to claim they know absolutely what is balanced and what is not, especially when there is not currently any ranked so we can see what the best do best with is arrogant at best.

 

Like we should care about your opinion in http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=461170 .

 

All this guy posts in his blog is his opinions on the game not absolute truths and FYI you can be a keyboardturner or a clicker and still be good even great pvper some people just don´t give a flying **** about rateds/arenas and enjoy few casual WZ/BGs a day. Moaning about KBturning or clicking is being an elitist ***** who rarely excel out of their premades AKA being carried.

[GrumpySwe]

If gaming was a physical sport, then yes. coaches have the knowledge but lack the physical ability that comes with extensive training.

 

Sadly for him, and your bad analogy, gaming is all about knowledge and how to apply it. If he lacks that, he can't comment on game balance.

 

You see, physical sports are two dimensional, they require mental ability and physical ability. You may lack one and excel at another, Gaming however only has 1 dimension, mental ability . If you lack that, well you're screwed.

 

While less "physical" than FPS games there still is a big difference between coaching and playing even a game such as swtor. So while not a perfect analogy it still applies. Its about theory and practice.

Edited May 21, 2012 by GrumpySwe

[Dmasterr]

While less "physical" than FPS games there still is a big difference between coaching and playing even a game such as swtor. So while not a perfect analogy it still applies. Its about theory and practice.

 

What you are talking about is called experience, and i purposely left it out, because he has 20 freaking years of it.

 

And experience is essentially RAW DATA, it takes mental ability to turn it into something actually useful.

[MaxLiao]

w

 

I completely disagree. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I completely disagree

So, you believe that running through a warzone like a disable old-(gender of your choice), or (in WoW's case) being stunlocked into oblivion is PvP? You believe that gear and Expertise/Resilience should fight the battle for you? Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the gear should play a SMALL role and that levels should give an edge, but they should not define the fight. The same goes for CC.

 

CC should be used to escape or to get the last hit in before he gets it on you. It should be used to break a tie or change the tide of a close fight. It should not define the fight. It should not force someone to effectively be perma-snared and/or forced to stand there while 2/3 of his life is wilted away.

 

If gaming was a physical sport, then yes. coaches have the knowledge but lack the physical ability that comes with extensive training.

 

Sadly for him, and your bad analogy, gaming is all about knowledge and how to apply it. If he lacks that, he can't comment on game balance.

 

You see, physical sports are two dimensional, they require mental ability and physical ability. You may lack one and excel at another, Gaming however only has 1 dimension, mental ability . If you lack that, well you're screwed.

Actually there is a physical component.

 

I for one SUCK in the worst way when it comes to anything 'twitch.' It's why I PvP rather successfully in MMOs and provide the enemy free kills in FPSs. While I am good at the tactics and knowing what to do in TOR - let's face it, compared to other games the raids are simplistic and the PvP is slower. I know how to bind my keyboard and mouse to ensure that I can play effectively, and I can react to any situation very well; however, if I am every required to shoot the wings off of a fly at ... well, anywhere, I'll lose. That takes skill I don't have.

 

Even without the ability to key bind certain aspects and to tab/assist target I would still be more than able to explain what to do, call targets, provide tips and tricks, etc. even if I'm not able to perform them 'as a pro' myself.