Are the Sith really Evil?

[Velaran]

No, that is your opinion that has no connection to official lore, or even EU lore. Basically it's an opinion that a lot of people think. Again, it does not make it lore, and it's not canon. Sorry.

 

The force becomes imbalanced when the dark side is present. That is lore. That is canon.

 

No debate here.

 

Canon > your opinion. I'm not stating my opinion. I'm stating canon. Huge difference.

 

I've posted this damn series of quotes five times now.

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."

 

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

 

"In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything."

 

-George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

 

"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film."

 

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

 

"The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope."

 

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

 

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"

 

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

 

"The Light is positive. It is intimately bound with the essence of living things; it is peace, harmony and knowledge. The Light Side springs from the great pattern of existence. It draws strength from diversity and tolerance. It is also inherently communal in nature, thriving on cooperation. Those emotions that enhance the existence of the whole flow from it and tap into its great reserves of strength and peace. Patience, humility and self-sacrifice are paths to enlightenment. Above all, it seeks harmony and perfection.

 

The Dark Side, in comparison, is the force of entropy and destruction. Chaos and rage feed it and are its sources of power. The Dark Side is a part of nature — it is not inherently evil, but evil comes from its irrationality, its intolerance and its lack of control. ******* and predatory, domination is its goal. Mercilessly aggressive and unforgiving, its adherents are blinded by greed and lust for power over those weaker than themselves.

 

The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe. Just as with any aspect of life and death, both the Dark Side and the Light Side are intertwined with each other, are necessary to each other and form a cosmic balance."

 

-The Dark Empire Sourcebook

 

And the Mortis arc in TCW clarifies this theme again.

 

Lucas may think the Dark Side is evil, but he doesn't think it's a natural imbalance, and evil is subjective.

[Mordegrus]

Are you talking about CIS? Right.. They were such Separatist that they attacked Naboo, and started an inter-galactic war.

 

You stop becoming Separatist when you create a droid army. and start attacking other systems.

 

Keep going. I have facts that support what I say.

 

And who fights the wars before the Clone Wars?

That's right.

The Jedi, slaves of the Republic.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Mordegrus

[EnsignSorrow]

I've posted this damn series of quotes five times now.

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."

 

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

 

"In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything."

 

-George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

 

"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film."

 

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

 

"The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope."

 

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

 

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"

 

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

 

"The Light is positive. It is intimately bound with the essence of living things; it is peace, harmony and knowledge. The Light Side springs from the great pattern of existence. It draws strength from diversity and tolerance. It is also inherently communal in nature, thriving on cooperation. Those emotions that enhance the existence of the whole flow from it and tap into its great reserves of strength and peace. Patience, humility and self-sacrifice are paths to enlightenment. Above all, it seeks harmony and perfection.

 

The Dark Side, in comparison, is the force of entropy and destruction. Chaos and rage feed it and are its sources of power. The Dark Side is a part of nature — it is not inherently evil, but evil comes from its irrationality, its intolerance and its lack of control. ******* and predatory, domination is its goal. Mercilessly aggressive and unforgiving, its adherents are blinded by greed and lust for power over those weaker than themselves.

 

The Light and Dark Side manifest themselves in the way they are used; they are simply different interpretations of a single aspect of nature, and they exist in balance with themselves and the universe. Just as with any aspect of life and death, both the Dark Side and the Light Side are intertwined with each other, are necessary to each other and form a cosmic balance."

 

-The Dark Empire Sourcebook

 

And the Mortis arc in TCW clarifies this theme again.

 

Lucas may think the Dark Side is evil, but he doesn't think it's a natural imbalance, and evil is subjective.

 

Nah. I've heard George say in a interview that the darkside is a cancer to the force, and that the force is in balance only when the dark side does not exist. I don't care what he said in 99'.

Edited May 23, 2012 by EnsignSorrow

[Velaran]

Nah. I've heard George say in a interview that the darkside is a cancer to the force, and that the force is in balance only when the dark side does not exist. I don't care what he said in 99'.

 

Well he also said all of that.

 

So you believe what you want to believe, but don't say "My way is the only way. My way is the only canon."

[EnsignSorrow]

Well he also said all of that.

 

So you believe what you want to believe, but don't say "My way is the only way. My way is the only canon."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HeXWoz6Ixo

 

No it's what he says in this interview. You think I'm making this up?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unifying_Force

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Living_Force

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

Edited May 23, 2012 by EnsignSorrow

[Velaran]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HeXWoz6Ixo

 

No it's what he says in this interview. You think I'm making this up?

 

No, i'm not saying you made it up, i'm saying that we have multiple sources from Lucas himself on the matter, so you can believe whatever you want. Just don't force it on people.

[EnsignSorrow]

No, i'm not saying you made it up, i'm saying that we have multiple sources from Lucas himself on the matter, so you can believe whatever you want. Just don't force it on people.

 

I'm not forcing it on anyone. I'm stating what George said in a later interview about the morality of StarWars. Sorry you cannot handle that.

[Velaran]

I'm not forcing it on anyone. I'm stating what George said in a later interview about the morality of StarWars. Sorry you cannot handle that.

 

Want to know what happened even later then that interview, that was directed by Lucas himself?

 

[Captain_Zone]

Ok, to be clear:

 

The Sith Code itself is NOT Evil. ONLY the interpretation of it can be Evil.

[Kaedusz]

Intentions are not important,results matter.Which means sith are not nesseserily evil and jedi are not nesseserily good.

 

self -righteousness on the other hand is a bad thing.And Jedi are nothing if not self- righteous.

 

The only sith that emanates pure evil is Darth Nihilus and maybe Darth Jadus.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Kaedusz

[DarthRaika]

think about this logically though. Was the galaxy better off with the emperor in charge or with a loosely led bunch of rebels in charge (with no police force and no real laws). the emperor brought order to a galaxy led by gangs. How many hutts do you see in the movies relative to this game. Sure there were slaves and some fear in the emperor's reign, however there was order. there was also freedom as far as we are concerned. It wasn't rebel freedom but rebel freedom is basically anarchy. Edited May 23, 2012 by DarthRaika

[Captain_Zone]

"Good? Evil? I'm the guy with the Lightsaber." - Kyle Katarn

[grandmthethird]

the ironic thing is all the ppl that say the sith are not evil, would probably be offending the sith. they would would have there head cut off, just so the sith could show the on-lookers just how evil they are,

 

and at the same time make sure everyone fears them

[Maaruin]

think about this logically though. Was the galaxy better off with the emperor in charge or with a loosely led bunch of rebels in charge (with no police force and no real laws). the emperor brought order to a galaxy led by gangs. How many hutts do you see in the movies relative to this game. Sure there were slaves and some fear in the emperor's reign, however there was order. there was also freedom as far as we are concerned. It wasn't rebel freedom but rebel freedom is basically anarchy.

 

Sorry, but that is just not true. Please look at the Declaration of Rebellion!

 

"[...] We firmly acknowledge the importance and necessity of the institution of Galactic Government. We accept that all must subjugate themselves to that Government, giving up certain rights and freedoms, in return for peace, prosperity and happiness for all.

 

[...] We believe that, should the rights of free beings be willfully and malignantly usurped, it is the unalienable right of said beings to alter or abolish said Government.

 

We believe that the Galactic Empire has willfully and malignantly usurped the rights of the free beings of the Galaxy and therefore, it is our unalienable right to abolish it from the Galaxy. "

 

 

You might argue that the Rebellion failed and produced anarchy in the end. There are some arguments to support this. But it was definitly not their intention.

 

 

 

@Topic:

 

I'll make a RL comparison with examples from history. Of course they don't fit in every detail:

 

The Jedi are like knights and monks. At least, how knights and monks should have been in theory.

Knights: They serve their overlord (Republic), they want to help the weak, they want to fight fair, they want to maintain peace and justice

Monks: They follow their religion in an ascetic way and try to find wisdom and enlightenment etc.

 

The Sith are like Roman aristocracy. They rule the lower classes, want to conquer an empire and easily bend their morals to their goals. They backstab and murder if it fits them. They enjoy cruelty. If they care for something else besides themselves, it is normally family/bloodlines and maybe honor.

 

In real life we normally don't call the knights/monks good and the Roman aristocracy evil. But in Star Wars it is exaggerated. They took mostly the good traits from knights and monks when they created the Jedi and nearly only the bad traits from Roman aristocracy when they created the Sith.

 

Maybe you don't want to use the word evil because in your (philosophical) point of view evil doesn't exist. Then, of course, Sith aren't evil. But if you think evil exists, then the Sith are evil. (Exept you have a very uncommon definition of evil.)

[eclipce]

of/c the Siths are evil - go watch the movies, go read some comics and books.

[Lady_Alyria]

Can anyone here name a redeeming quality about Darth Sidious?

 

He's intelligent, he's a hardworker, he's good with people. I mean he managed to control both sides of a war, that's quite a feat. Even the most evil people have redeeming qualities.

[Lady_Alyria]

Really it's a question of is selfishness evil, because that's really the foundation of Sith philosophy, pure, extreme selfishness. While Jedi are their polar opposites by taking selflessness to the extreme.

 

The reason why this is up for debate and not clearly, automatically evil because Western culture doesn't demonize selfishness. Consumerism, captialism, nationalism, all would fail to function if our sense of morality didn't allow for some selfishness. The average Westerner, when faced with Jedi philosophy, and told they couldn't love their own mother any more or less than a stranger would probably blink a few times and walk off. Most of us couldn't fathom that level of selflessness, yet alone ascribe to it.

 

Selfishness is considered natural, human. Sure being reasonable creatures we are expected to keep our selfisness in check, much like we don't pee on the couch when we need to use the bathroom, but being selfish isn't considered evil. That's why it's so hard to summarily denounce Sith because Sith philosophy, the philosophy of selfishness, isn't something in our own morality we are trained to abhor, it's something we are taught to moderate.

[Mordegrus]

Really it's a question of is selfishness evil, because that's really the foundation of Sith philosophy, pure, extreme selfishness. While Jedi are their polar opposites by taking selflessness to the extreme.

 

The reason why this is up for debate and not clearly, automatically evil because Western culture doesn't demonize selfishness. Consumerism, captialism, nationalism, all would fail to function if our sense of morality didn't allow for some selfishness. The average Westerner, when faced with Jedi philosophy, and told they couldn't love their own mother any more or less than a stranger would probably blink a few times and walk off. Most of us couldn't fathom that level of selflessness, yet alone ascribe to it.

 

Selfishness is considered natural, human. Sure being reasonable creatures we are expected to keep our selfisness in check, much like we don't pee on the couch when we need to use the bathroom, but being selfish isn't considered evil. That's why it's so hard to summarily denounce Sith because Sith philosophy, the philosophy of selfishness, isn't something in our own morality we are trained to abhor, it's something we are taught to moderate.

 

Very good points.

[OldVengeance]

How about this?

 

Is it evil for the Beta Wolf to challenge and kill the Alpha male to become the new Alpha?

 

Is it evil when a male lion challenges and kills the head of the pride to become the new head?

 

If you answered no to either of those, why is it evil for a Lesser Sith to challenge and kill a higher ranking Sith to take his position? Because Sith have the ability to speak? In all three scenarios there is a build up of tensions and there is a planning phase. All three challengers intend to kill the defender.

 

 

If you would like to say they murder people when they conquer planets, people die in war. Nobody is going to give up their home without a fight, some will not give up until you kill them. Conquering planets is essential to establishing an empire.

 

If you would like to say they murder their subordinates, Sith are the authority, therefore they are judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to meting out disciplinary actions for failures. The Sith act within the bounds of the laws of the Empire. If the Imperials did not want to suffer such fates, they could have chosen a different profession.

 

It's amazing how many pages this thread got in such a short time, compared to how it started.

 

 

Lions and wolves act on instinct. Sapient beings do not. Conquering planets by force is evil. The way the empire is run is evil and the fact that the sith have the authority within their nation to make the laws the way they are does not make them less evil. Imperial citizens have no choice in any of their fates. If they were born in the empire they suffer at the whims of whatever the Sith want of them. They don't get to choose otherwise.

 

The Sith believe that you should get rid of the things you no longer need.

If your pencil splits in half, you would throw it away, would you not?

The Sith get rid of people the same way.

So basically it all depends on perspective.

The Sith don't find murder wrong; the Jedi do.

The way you think what is wrong or right depends on your view of thinking, or it depends on what society you were raised in.

 

Humans aren't pencils. Treating people as if they are as disposable as pencils is evil, without question.

 

But if you don't believe anything is evil then why bother asking the question? You seem to have rejected just about every example of evil acts the Empire does. Almost nobody thinks of themselves as being evil. But that doesn't mean that nobody is evil.

 

For the Sith or anything else to be evil then you would need to work from the premise that evil exists. I would imagine most people went into this conversation with that concept of evil existing. If you already don't believe that then obviously no-one is going to convicne you the sith are evil. Star Wars isn't really an overly complicted story. The Sith ARE the bad guys. The bad guys ARE evil.

 

As for the Sith teachings. While you could maybe make a case that the half dozen lines of the Sith code are not evil. Sith Philosophy definitely is evil. It is not difficult to arrive at this analysis. It encompasses much more than just those 6 or 7 lines.

Edited May 23, 2012 by OldVengeance

[Lewisgil]

Is there anyone that supports the Sith as not evil?

 

Sorry I've been gone for a couple days moving. But, I do.

 

Back to your question about the Sith Code being evil or not.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

 

What this means to the Sith is Peace brings stagnation and from stagnation weakness. Passion brings conflict and strife which must be endured to become more than you currently are.

 

Through passion I gain strength.

 

As stated before, passion brings conflict and strife. It is only by facing conflict and strife that we test our limits and boundaries. By testing these limits, we learn to adapt or we die.

 

Through strength I gain power.

 

By adapting and overcoming our limitations, we gain mastery over ourselves. Mastery over one's self is the path to true power.

 

Through power I gain victory.

 

For this, it is best described by one of the axioms of Darth Plagueis.

 

"You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species… finally, the galaxy itself."

―Darth Plagueis[src]

 

Through victory my chains are broken.

 

You transcend the slavery of mediocrity and become something more.

 

The Force shall free me.

 

This is the path of the Dark SIde of the Force.

 

While it may be very self-serving, there is nothing inherently evil with how the Sith interpret the Code. It is a big F U to the Jedi Code because it is the exact opposite sentiment. The Jedi Code advocates pacifism while the Sith Code advocates activism. The Jedi Code leads to improvement of the whole while the Sith Code leads to improvement of the self. Seems to me they both have their merits. Maybe a hybridization of the two is actually best.

[OldVengeance]

I'd say causing conflict and strife and war just for the sake of causing them is evil.

[Lewisgil]

I'd say causing conflict and strife and war just for the sake of causing them is evil.

 

Who said they cause it? They just don't avoid it. If the Jedi had their way, conflict and strife would be avoided altogether.

[OldVengeance]

Because they can cause it? Powerful individuals who constantly crave war will definitely be the cause of it if they truely desire it.

 

They've caused every war with the Jedi in the past. They are also constantly scheming against each other.

 

If that really is the root of the Sith code then, their entire directive would be to end peace whenever possible.

[Lewisgil]

Because they can cause it? Powerful individuals who constantly crave war will definitely be the cause of it if they truely desire it.

 

They've caused every war with the Jedi in the past. They are also constantly scheming against each other.

 

If that really is the root of the Sith code then, their entire directive would be to end peace whenever possible.

 

Actually, nobody knows who started the First Great Schism. The Second Great Schism was started by escalating arguments regarding their opposing views. It was the Republic that chased the Sith out of the Galaxy nearly causing their extinction which instigated the current war being waged in TOR. So, your statement that the Sith started all the wars is not true.

 

The Sith Code does not end peace, it says peace is detrimental to one's progress. Only extremists would take it to mean war is the path to strength. Conflict can be overcoming any adversity.

[Velaran]

Conflict is necessary for advancement, in any form. Peace leads to stagnation and apathy.