Any benefit for over 1100 expertise?

[JediDuckling]

To be completely honest, I cannot see a difference between a sorcerer with 1200 expertise and another with 1100 expertise. IMHO, I don't even think War Hero gear is worth grinding out at all since most of the gear (for me at least) downgrades my BM stat and it doesn't make any sense.

 

I just want to ask, is there any benefit to have over 1100 expertise in PvP at all? A lot of people on my server say anything more is not necessary and they usually stick with that and replace some gear with PvE gear because of higher stats. I want to know if this is true or not, since I'm not the only one who sees no difference above 1100.

 

some of the WH gear is actualy worse than the BM stuff. who ever designed the WH gear/stats is realy bad.

[LancelotOC]

Someone should make an online calculator where you can put in your stats and expertise then input the stats off 2 different items to see your gains comparitvely.

 

Too many seem to be stumbling with the math. Toss a viagra add on the calculator page.. get 10 cents per view. 1.5 million swtor subscriber.. instant $150,000 for coding a calculator.

 

Soon after you will be logging in from a pink sand beach in the Bahamas with one of those tropical drinks with an umbrella.

[L-RANDLE]

Someone should make an online calculator where you can put in your stats and expertise then input the stats off 2 different items to see your gains comparitvely.

 

Too many seem to be stumbling with the math. Toss a viagra add on the calculator page.. get 10 cents per view. 1.5 million swtor subscriber.. instant $150,000 for coding a calculator.

 

Soon after you will be logging in from a pink sand beach in the Bahamas with one of those tropical drinks with an umbrella.

This works fine for me...

http://www.askmrrobot.com/

[Sookster]

I have a matrix cube in one of the relic slots, I use an augmented orange weapon with desired mods rather than being pigeonholed into using the crappy BM/WH weapon mods (sans the barrel/hilt), as others said once you pass 1100 expertise, you gain a bit more from pve mods. Edited May 18, 2012 by Sookster

[LancelotOC]

Wow I never realised it was that good. Thank you.

[L-RANDLE]

Wow I never realised it was that good. Thank you.

 

yep, my only gripe is that it can't show stims on the builds, but everything else at least give you an idea of what the tradeoffs are. Some of the items are off slightly, but at least you get an idea....

[mikedee]

For pugs, having guard is enough. For 8 man premades is not going to be.

 

This is true. You guys act like you know...

[Pekish]

the only reasonable doubt for a PURE DPS CLASS come from that piece that has as much power as expertise and i know only one the CRYSTAL

 

+41 power for a pure DPS class and only for a PURE DPS CLASS may be a better choise (according to playstyle) then a +41 expertise

 

this is the only 1 place that after you got your expertise at at LEAST 1080-1100 where you can think about going with +POWER

 

any other place it's wrong. (to my knowledge but if someone can show me any other piece that give as much power as expertise I may change my mind)

 

That why more or less people argue between 1200 exp or 1100 exp because adding 2 crystal + power or +expertise move those +82 exp back and forward and if u are strickly offensive DPS it may be an advantage to go +power

 

every other piece YOU HAVE TO GO PVP EXPERTISE IF YOU PVP obviously u can play around with mods like i did in my signature picture i use 3 different set mixed up (and i go with a craftet bracer because it give me +50 power +28 surge while the PVP piece (THAT I RECONIZE IS BETTER OVERALL) less adapt to my playstyle

 

As tanksin i have already a pretty good resistance almost too good but my DPS fall a little short thats why using DPS gear and sometimes to extreme (read that crafted bracer with +50power+28surge that i critted with augment as well and the datacron cube that give me +24 crit) those are personal choise and make sense only because my resistance is already over the top thats why i can allow myself to push a little bit the damage with power/crit/surge instead of going FULL EXPERTISE

 

but this is just my class my playstyle and i already have 1087 expertise but people with 700 expertise half PVE half PVP and some even with 400 just make me cry.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Pekish

[ZDProletariat]

The real question I want answered is whether Expertise crystals or Power crystals are better.

[Pekish]

depend form your playstyle

 

if you play strickly in GROUP you run in couple you find yourself 2vs1 more often then not you are good enough in disappearing when under focus fire and you are geared for MAX_DPS

 

POWER is the right choise

 

 

 

in any other case... you play PUG you like to be center of attenction you never run away from a fight you find yuorself SOLO_CAP tower 1vs2 (and you think u are good enough to take down 2 at the same time) etcetc go EXPERTISE

 

because 2 people focusing on you the quantity of DAMAGE you RESIST with expertise is DOUBLED! on the other hand the damage you do unless u are AOE (But pure DPS are not AOE) it's still only single

 

 

and lets be real we are talking about difference in damage of +20 damage over 2000 so go whatever you like the most of u find it cheaper really CRYSTAL is about LOOK first of all in my opinion you like Magenta go POWER you like PURLPE go Expertise you like ORANGE with black core it's only PVE (POWER) the PVP one is ranked and not usable till they dont open RANKED PVP

 

so CRYSTAL is mainly about LOOK as it should be as long as is +41something, something that make sense with your built obviosuly

 

that the only real choise all the rest mix BM-PVP set at least 10/12 only expection due to playstyle is DATACRON CUBE and the other one low expertise piece wrist/belt

Edited May 18, 2012 by Pekish

[Astarica]

Even at 1 Power to 1 Expertise, going for Power decreases your own TTK more than the enemy's TTK. That is, while the enemy will die slightly faster if you go for Power over Expertise, you'll die even faster if he fights back.

 

The keyword here is 'if he fights back'. If you're always getting the jump on the enemy without them noticing you, you might not care about the retaliation, especially if you're an Op where if your opening strike ddin't kill them you're probably dead anyway, so you might as well go all-in on offense in this case. For any class that is expected to be attacked at all, expertise is better. Note that this has nothing to do with class power. A Marauder or a Tankasin wins most fights, but their victim is usually quite aware of their presence and is definitely going to fight back.

[Swijr]

The real question I want answered is whether Expertise crystals or Power crystals are better.

 

And I guess reading the post above yours was too much?

 

 

Swijr

[SinnedWill]

To be completely honest, I cannot see a difference between a sorcerer with 1200 expertise and another with 1100 expertise. IMHO, I don't even think War Hero gear is worth grinding out at all since most of the gear (for me at least) downgrades my BM stat and it doesn't make any sense.

 

I just want to ask, is there any benefit to have over 1100 expertise in PvP at all? A lot of people on my server say anything more is not necessary and they usually stick with that and replace some gear with PvE gear because of higher stats. I want to know if this is true or not, since I'm not the only one who sees no difference above 1100.

 

Classes with abilities that have high base damage benefit more than sorc does from expertise currently (in terms of damage dealing). However, you'll notice a significant drop in survivability as sorc. if you choose pve gear over pvp gear and still maintained ~1200 expertise. End-game (enemies in full WH gear, sorc. in full WH gear), you'll find that sorc. dps role is lacking when compared to other classes/specs that benefit more heavily from expertise for damage, though you can't ever really replace everything that the sorc. dps role might fill. Healing gets pretty huge for sorcerers as you gear up (5k+ dark infusion crits from my NON-heal specced sorcerer even with pvp heal debuff - I can only imagine how well I'd perform if I were heal-specced, but I'm not gunna' bother). You'll still perform well enough end-game as DPS sorc, and I don't foresee any lack of invites to ranked warzone groups, but you certainly don't scale as well (and survivability drops significantly end-game as sorc. - snipers/slingers become an issue despite the fact that madness sorc is probably the best counter to them, for example).

 

As to mixing/matching stats/expertise for optimal performance, I haven't noticed any significant advantages to trading expertise for stats in terms of damage being dealt (as madness sorc.), but I certainly notice it has much more significance on my heal values (despite not having any heal-spec) and survivability (against classes with big damage in full WH gear, particularly).

Edited May 18, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Pekish]

Even at 1 Power to 1 Expertise, going for Power decreases your own TTK more than the enemy's TTK. That is, while the enemy will die slightly faster if you go for Power over Expertise, you'll die even faster if he fights back.

 

The keyword here is 'if he fights back'. If you're always getting the jump on the enemy without them noticing you, you might not care about the retaliation, especially if you're an Op where if your opening strike ddin't kill them you're probably dead anyway, so you might as well go all-in on offense in this case. For any class that is expected to be attacked at all, expertise is better. Note that this has nothing to do with class power. A Marauder or a Tankasin wins most fights, but their victim is usually quite aware of their presence and is definitely going to fight back.

 

exactly but let's remember the difference between +82 power 1.89% (82x0.23=1.89%)

and +82 expertise 1.6% or 1.7% (between 1100-1200)

 

it's 0.2% or 0.3% guys we are talking about 4/6 damage more or less (over 2000) I doubt this will make you WIN or LOSE pick the CRYSTAL FOR THE COLOR YOU LIKE THE MOST some color are only power some color only epxertise!!!!!!!

Edited May 18, 2012 by Pekish

[SinnedWill]

The real question I want answered is whether Expertise crystals or Power crystals are better.

 

41 Expertise is significant enough to have an impact on survivability that you should use them. You'll end up losing a little bit of damage overall, though - hell, if you're heal-specced, you'll probably find that you increased your healing fairly significantly on your stronger heals but lost a bit on your HoT and weaker ones.

[dcgregorya]

As a healer, increasing my healing is better than increasing my mitigation, especially when guarded by my token tank, but to each his own i guess

 

P.S. If this were pve ... we would not be having this conversation as expertise is useless.

 

Until you get stunned or need to help doing damage. PVP != PVE - you don't or shouldn't just stick to spamming your heals. In reality you get interrupted, stunned, or your team needs more DPS to down someone important fast. Damage reduction is always good because it prolongs your time to kill, giving other healers a chance to keep you up and other players a chance to peel off of you.

 

For PVP expertise is essential and a good player will perform better by stacking it.

[funkiestj]

quite the opposite:

healers benefit very poorly from experise because of a steep diminishing return. For dps expertise is BIS.

 

Here's the graph.

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=282

 

That is a very pretty graph. Is there an accompanying article that explains it? E.g. what does the "1.2 trauma" line tell me? Presumably the X-axis is expertise but what does

 

1.2-trauma(2400) ~= 20%

 

mean? For each line (function), what is the methodology used to generate it?

 

EDIT: also, for the x-axis (expertise), is this the expertise diferential? I.e. if, as a defender and my expertise is 1700 and yours (attacker) is 1400, should I be looking at the X = 300 area of the graph?

Edited May 18, 2012 by funkiestj

[Lymain]

If you don't believe in Expertise, at least get a Campaign relic. Those are better than your Matrix Cube.

 

Laughing because Matrix Cubes are a big thing on my server

[SweetOldBob]

quite the opposite:

healers benefit very poorly from experise because of a steep diminishing return. For dps expertise is BIS.

 

Here's the graph.

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=282

 

Interesting! If I'm reading this right, for 1.2 the slope for damage has some reduction as expertise increases, but not much at all. As a practical matter, in the range shown damage as a function of expertise is pretty damn linear.

 

Very informative. Thanks!

[L-RANDLE]

Interesting! If I'm reading this right, for 1.2 the slope for damage has some reduction as expertise increases, but not much at all. As a practical matter, in the range shown damage as a function of expertise is pretty damn linear.

 

Very informative. Thanks!

 

What I would give for a chart for expertise(x) v. damage bonus(y).....

[Groncho]

That is a very pretty graph. Is there an accompanying article that explains it? E.g. what does the "1.2 trauma" line tell me? Presumably the X-axis is expertise but what does

 

1.2-trauma(2400) ~= 20%

 

mean? For each line (function), what is the methodology used to generate it?

 

EDIT: also, for the x-axis (expertise), is this the expertise diferential? I.e. if, as a defender and my expertise is 1700 and yours (attacker) is 1400, should I be looking at the X = 300 area of the graph?

 

Ur not gonna get an answer

4 the rest ...STACK EXPERTISE

Edited May 18, 2012 by Groncho

[Orangerascal]

The graph was taken from this thread:

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=50

 

Also I wrote an attribute calculator once upon a time, but I didn't update it for 1.2. Steal the code and update it if you guys want:

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/21/swtor-attribute-calculator/

 

 

Until you get stunned or need to help doing damage. PVP != PVE - you don't or shouldn't just stick to spamming your heals. In reality you get interrupted, stunned, or your team needs more DPS to down someone important fast. Damage reduction is always good because it prolongs your time to kill, giving other healers a chance to keep you up and other players a chance to peel off of you.

 

For PVP expertise is essential and a good player will perform better by stacking it.

 

Like I said to each their own, I notice noticable healing numbers when I stack the matric relic. Your experiences may vary. My tanks want me to heal, and I want them to guard me and prolong the fight. The 5% I actually dps, is not worth going past 1100 expertise for me.

 

Lastly, when I dps, stack experitise heavily.

 

That is a very pretty graph. Is there an accompanying article that explains it? E.g. what does the "1.2 trauma" line tell me? Presumably the X-axis is expertise but what does

 

1.2-trauma(2400) ~= 20%

 

mean? For each line (function), what is the methodology used to generate it?

 

EDIT: also, for the x-axis (expertise), is this the expertise diferential? I.e. if, as a defender and my expertise is 1700 and yours (attacker) is 1400, should I be looking at the X = 300 area of the graph?

 

I didn't create the graph, but it's pretty obvious what is shows. You can answer the differential question by reading this article:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/15/hyperspace-beacon-swtors-james-ohlen-shares-the-formula-behind/

 

I've pasted where the graph and the formulas were obtained above. The graph is simply a plot of the formulas. It's a 50+ page of theorycrafring and analysis.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Ellvaan
Rude

[funkiestj]

I didn't create the graph, but it's pretty obvious what is shows. You can answer the differential question by reading this article:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/15/hyperspace-beacon-swtors-james-ohlen-shares-the-formula-behind/

 

I've pasted where the graph and the formulas were obtained above. The graph is simply a plot of the formulas.

 

Thanks!

 

EDIT: I'm part way through this article now. It is an awesome resource! Thanks again for posting the link

Edited May 18, 2012 by funkiestj

[Pekish]

the curve of healing is lower because it DOESNT CANCEL OUT

 

i hit an enemy for 1500 + expertise (mine) - expertise (his) = more or less the same 1500 if the 2 are equally geared

 

i heal a friend for 1500 + expertise = 1700 or more so obviously the curve CANNOT FOLLOW DAMAGE

 

 

on the other hand is intresting the fact that before we said POWER is not worth too much because there is PROTECTION here on healing POWER get a little bit a revenge since there is no protection so talking about HEAL obviously POWER is better

 

on the other hand when you are healing you still are under enemy focus fire and POWER doesn't help you to stay alive while EXPERTISE HELP YOU BIG TIME

 

so teorically power is better for healing but an healer need to stay alive and GUARD alone is not enough if 3 people are focusing on him/her EXPERTISE make the difference!

 

as usual and as the other guys said you dont need to go 1200 expertise and 0 power

people need to learn to balance stuff 1000 expertise and 200 power or 1100 expertise and 100 power make more sence then going extreme (in both direction top power is silly top expertise may not bet the best either but still the balance have to be 11:1 or 10:2 in favor of expertise)

Edited May 18, 2012 by Pekish

[thegreebler]

I shall not greeble over which is better.

 

Power is now the big thing for many, this may include heals too.

 

Also, expertise does add dmg reduction. Since our cry is always "kill the healers," mitigation is our friend:)

 

What I am currently greebling over is more over tank issues; stacking your tank specs mitigations and expertise. Also since we do greeble them with walloping punches... dmg output can also be important. However, for tank specifically I would focus alot on endurance. In fact, I focus alot on endurance even as healer for obvious reasons - when the healer gets focused he becomes a tank:)

 

I suspect though, that power is the winner out of the whole "what stat after my mains?"

 

regardless ill tend to go with expertise, endurance, mainstat, power, crit surge... in that order. I can always be wrong though.

 

In parting I will leave you with this thought; GREEBLE GROBBLE!