>> How To Nerf Marauders Without Losing Subscriber Base

[Sickboy_]

marauders are indeed too strong in pvp right now. But what OP is suggesting would destroy the class. What I suggest is that their all around damage be nerfed(but not too much) to compensate for their insane survivability.

[Gomex]

Yes, let's make a melee class most vulnerable to dmg do less or equal damage than range classes who don't have to expose themselves in aoe dmg/bad positioning to maintain their dps. Let's redefine the meaning of annihilation or the strongest hitting attack "massacre".

 

Yep, it makes sense to nerf a pure dps class to equal non pure dps classes.

 

On top of that, when a person tab targets "nearest enemy" how many times do they actually swap off and detarget somebody else? That being said...marauders will be on that first target almost all the time. And if it's a marauder that killed him...and you have range...how many of you actually don't tunnel that guy till he's dead?

 

Now imagine a cluster **** of people tab targeting the closest person next to them

 

Ya if 250 hp health ticks saves them after UR then cry about your team's inability to throw a cc or 2

Edited May 19, 2012 by Gomex

[dcgregorya]

I'm not convinced marauders or sentinels need nerfing. What I see is that snipers and marauders when played by skilled players do very well and when played by lackluster players do very poorly. They're not by any means a faceroll easy class. There's a couple of classes that could use boosts, a lot of people that are in the wrong builds for the 1.2 metagame and a few other things but I don't think they need to be nerfed at all to be honest.

[dcgregorya]

marauders are indeed too strong in pvp right now. But what OP is suggesting would destroy the class. What I suggest is that their all around damage be nerfed(but not too much) to compensate for their insane survivability.

 

If you nerf them at all, they go from 1700 sustained to what? 1500? That's where sorcs and commandos are at but with range. Part of being a melee is getting smacked around because you have very little ability to conceal your location. Running through the middle of hostiles leads to taking a lot of additional fire.

 

I could see a small change in DPS but I think the problem is ultimately the time to kill across the board and I maintain that if you think a class is really imbalanced play one and see how well you do - most of the QQ'ers are going to do very poorly regardless of what they play.

[Cormacus]

If you nerf them at all, they go from 1700 sustained to what? 1500? That's where sorcs and commandos are at but with range. Part of being a melee is getting smacked around because you have very little ability to conceal your location. Running through the middle of hostiles leads to taking a lot of additional fire.

 

I could see a small change in DPS but I think the problem is ultimately the time to kill across the board and I maintain that if you think a class is really imbalanced play one and see how well you do - most of the QQ'ers are going to do very poorly regardless of what they play.

 

That's the problem, neither Commando or Sage can match or even come close to the sustained very strong DPS that Marauders/Sentinels do. I play both and really love the two classes, great fun to play or was. But neither, no matter what build you use have strong burst or high DPS anymore. Possibly out of the two the strongest burst is Gunnery Commando but you can't use it in PvP it's exceptionally easy to shut down and very stationary. Both Sage's and Commando's are seen as easy free kill by most melee. I've been in countless matches where the latest re-rolled Mara has time to type out /laugh while he kills me. Trying to tell me how bad I am.. while I'm desperately trying to put some distance between me and them.. while being snared, stunned and quickly killed.

 

So you have two ranged DPS classes that can't DPS very well, who have no survive-ability and now pigeonholed into either being a weak support class or healers. And in the Commando's case their only real ability to get distance between them and melee had it's cooldown increased!!

 

The BIG difference is also that majority of classes depend on a good team compared to marauders/sentinels that can survive without one.

 

In the end, I don't think it matters now. Its to late to save the game. Only the die-hard fans remains on my server and even they seem to be on auto-pilot. I've remained optimistic and hoped something would change but its becoming clear Bioware won't change anything.

[Derian]

That's the problem, neither Commando or Sage can match or even come close to the sustained very strong DPS that Marauders/Sentinels do. I play both and really love the two classes, great fun to play or was. But neither, no matter what build you use have strong burst or high DPS anymore. Possibly out of the two the strongest burst is Gunnery Commando but you can't use it in PvP it's exceptionally easy to shut down and very stationary. Both Sage's and Commando's are seen as easy free kill by most melee. I've been in countless matches where the latest re-rolled Mara has time to type out /laugh while he kills me. Trying to tell me how bad I am.. while I'm desperately trying to put some distance between me and them.. while being snared, stunned and quickly killed.

 

So you have two ranged DPS classes that can't DPS very well, who have no survive-ability and now pigeonholed into either being a weak support class or healers. And in the Commando's case their only real ability to get distance between them and melee had it's cooldown increased!!

 

The BIG difference is also that majority of classes depend on a good team compared to marauders/sentinels that can survive without one.

 

In the end, I don't think it matters now. Its to late to save the game. Only the die-hard fans remains on my server and even they seem to be on auto-pilot. I've remained optimistic and hoped something would change but its becoming clear Bioware won't change anything.

 

I have a Commando in my guild doing 400k-450k per WZ when on our server doing 300k with a Sentinel/Marauder is pretty good. (We don't have bad players on our server that let Sentinels/Marauders just wreck shop they get CC'd and dealt with).

 

A commando/merc can do a lot of damage, but they need support. Their DPS I would gauge may be higher when you take into account ranged vs melee of course against a dummy it shouldnt be as high as melee DPS melee DPS needs to close the gap.

[Cormacus]

I have a Commando in my guild doing 400k-450k per WZ when on our server doing 300k with a Sentinel/Marauder is pretty good. (We don't have bad players on our server that let Sentinels/Marauders just wreck shop they get CC'd and dealt with).

 

A commando/merc can do a lot of damage, but they need support. Their DPS I would gauge may be higher when you take into account ranged vs melee of course against a dummy it shouldnt be as high as melee DPS melee DPS needs to close the gap.

 

Looking at total Damage numbers means nothing, this is why Bioware's way to balancing is wrong. When I run as Assault Commando I can probably get 400-500k in most pvp matches, but it doesn't mean anything. It just means I dotted up a lot of targets. In the current state of the game you need fast burst and a way of taking people down. As Commando Gunnery you can have some burst but it's very slow and you have to stand still. Mara/Sentinels have very strong AND fast burst. So how come one DPS class has lots of burst which is mainly instant or can't be interrupted while the classes who have nothing but DPS abilites but no survivability do not have any real burst? Glass Cannon concept been around for a long time but you have ended up with several Ranged DPS classes being of glass and no cannon.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Cormacus

[Gomex]

That's the problem, neither Commando or Sage can match or even come close to the sustained very strong DPS that Marauders/Sentinels do. I play both and really love the two classes, great fun to play or was. But neither, no matter what build you use have strong burst or high DPS anymore. Possibly out of the two the strongest burst is Gunnery Commando but you can't use it in PvP it's exceptionally easy to shut down and very stationary. Both Sage's and Commando's are seen as easy free kill by most melee. I've been in countless matches where the latest re-rolled Mara has time to type out /laugh while he kills me. Trying to tell me how bad I am.. while I'm desperately trying to put some distance between me and them.. while being snared, stunned and quickly killed.

 

So you have two ranged DPS classes that can't DPS very well, who have no survive-ability and now pigeonholed into either being a weak support class or healers. And in the Commando's case their only real ability to get distance between them and melee had it's cooldown increased!!

 

The BIG difference is also that majority of classes depend on a good team compared to marauders/sentinels that can survive without one.

 

In the end, I don't think it matters now. Its to late to save the game. Only the die-hard fans remains on my server and even they seem to be on auto-pilot. I've remained optimistic and hoped something would change but its becoming clear Bioware won't change anything.

 

What gives you the right to speak for all sages/sorcs/commandos? You said it yourself your server is dying..so what few remains there speaks for the rest of the population who plays them?

 

Let me ask you a question...are you a clicker?

 

The reason why I asked is because you said the class (sorc) is very stationary. The only "stationary" build is lightning and you're in that tree for pvp then you should respec to madness will all due respect.

 

Madness is all instant globals to do dmg...the only thing you really need to channel something is force lightning and it slows for you which also procs another instant dot....so I don't get the point when you say it's stationary? Especially when ww is instant along with stun and knockback....Only possible conclusion is being a clicker and using S key in your rotation.

 

If you're talking about commandos...then...duh?

 

They're carrying a giant loaded gun while in heavy armor

 

Might is well call snipers bad class because they're stationary.

 

I do way more damage on my sorc than my marauder. I've hit 700k+ multiple times where as only 700k once on my marauder. You're far from the truth about sorcs not coming close to dmg with marauders

 

Aside from that, I've never lost to a marauder when it comes to numbers, I will always outheal their damage at the end of the match...so the fact that I even do more damage than my conqueror marauder is quite funny

 

I can post links of breaking 800k+ multiple times on heals...and 700k+ multiple times in madness.

 

Your server small server doesn't speak for the rest of the community

 

Reread my post about class roles while you're at it

[Gomex]

Looking at total Damage numbers means nothing, this is why Bioware's way to balancing is wrong. When I run as Assault Commando I can probably get 400-500k in most pvp matches, but it doesn't mean anything. It just means I dotted up a lot of targets. In the current state of the game you need fast burst and a way of taking people down. As Commando Gunnery you can have some burst but it's very slow and you have to stand still. Mara/Sentinels have very strong AND fast burst. So how come one DPS class has lots of burst which is mainly instant or can't be interrupted while the classes who have nothing but DPS abilites but no survivability do not have any real burst? Glass Cannon concept been around for a long time but you have ended up with several Ranged DPS classes being of glass and no cannon.

 

Now you're just contradicting yourself?

 

The part "So how come one DPS class has lots of burst which is mainly instant or can't be interrupted while classes who have nothing but DPS abilities but no survivalbility dot not have any real burst?"

 

Marauders-pure dps class with the worst control in the game

 

Commandos/sorc- not pure dps class with knockbacks/slows from range along with instant cc from range

 

You make it sound like marauders don't go down to 50% after reaching his target from a knockback.

 

I've killed plenty of marauders who thought I was just another bad sorc just from kiting and timing my roots/knockbacks well....even more who thought it was just a fluke and came back for more deaths after respawn

 

Hell I've even globaled tons of them to 20% or killed them with dots set up+1 forcelightning with relic/adrenal

 

And that's coming from a non-pure dps class with 2 instant ccs that isn't broken on dmg

[DrexBane]

I kill average maras almost every 1 vs 1 .....

I kill skilled maras 50% of the times 1 vs 1 ....

 

that's only cause I know when to cc them, and you know how I can time my cc so well?? cuz im a mara, class knowledge helps a lot, but not only against marauders/setinels.

 

If i play lazy and dont bother to pay much attention on what they are doing, I loldie in 3sec....

 

Same thing happens with my sniper.

 

Sadly, we are like 30 good players left on my server, both sides, and i can tell you that every class used from a skilled player, is a damn even match, snipers, kiting sorcs, damn bursty assas, hard to die tankass, kiting mercs, hello-cc-jeezburts pt...

 

every class if played well can do his job, but you need to focus on what you/they are doing.

 

on the other side, when I fight against one of the classes above, played by a nub or poor equiped, then there is no match (but that counts for every good skilled or overequipped player).

 

so I'll not say l2p, but ......

[Gomex]

Thing is, everyone on forums think they are skilled enough to speak for their classes alone. When in reality they just don't know the mechanics of their own counters.

[Fafryd]

I've been levelling a marauder for the buff for my other toons. The damage and utility of this toon is becoming ludicrous. It's clearly headed for a nerf - although how to do it seems delicate as it would be easy to go too far and/or you would need to remove some of their cooldowns/buffs.

[Gomex]

I've been levelling a marauder for the buff for my other toons. The damage and utility of this toon is becoming ludicrous. It's clearly headed for a nerf - although how to do it seems delicate as it would be easy to go too far and/or you would need to remove some of their cooldowns/buffs.

 

Cause lowbie wz justifies a need for a nerf right?

 

Try dealing with full WH geared players who know what they're doing

 

Then tell me how many times you DON'T have to use a major cool down to score a kill when focused

[Apocalypse-]

I've been levelling a marauder for the buff for my other toons. The damage and utility of this toon is becoming ludicrous. It's clearly headed for a nerf - although how to do it seems delicate as it would be easy to go too far and/or you would need to remove some of their cooldowns/buffs.

 

You say this while in lowbie warzones. There's going to come a match against a competent team where you just get your face pushed in repeatedly, and then you'll realize why you've got those cooldowns.

[Darth-Malice]

Learn to play your class and stop crying Nerf when you lose or have trouble with a fight.

[Xerain]

Looking at total Damage numbers means nothing, this is why Bioware's way to balancing is wrong. When I run as Assault Commando I can probably get 400-500k in most pvp matches, but it doesn't mean anything. It just means I dotted up a lot of targets. In the current state of the game you need fast burst and a way of taking people down. As Commando Gunnery you can have some burst but it's very slow and you have to stand still. Mara/Sentinels have very strong AND fast burst. So how come one DPS class has lots of burst which is mainly instant or can't be interrupted while the classes who have nothing but DPS abilites but no survivability do not have any real burst? Glass Cannon concept been around for a long time but you have ended up with several Ranged DPS classes being of glass and no cannon.

 

Just because gunner got nerfed is not reason enough for you to nerf marauder, Gunner needs it's big hit fixed. pre 1.2 demo round crits were what 4-6k range? 1.2 hit and they were doing 7k+ and then they got nerfed and people are saying they're lucky if it's critting for 4k. It needs to go back to the 4-6k crit range so you have that burst.

 

And commando has more than just DPS abilities, one of your tree's is put there to help build up and make your healing more powerful. sure you might not be very good at healing when dps specced but if you need to you can throw out a cleanse or a heal on a target...

[Bpotux]

It's really really simple, the only change needed is a 99% debuff added to healing while using camo and nerd rage. Problem solved. Keep your damage or keep you survavability as a non tank. Plain and simple.

[Fafryd]

Cause lowbie wz justifies a need for a nerf right?

 

Try dealing with full WH geared players who know what they're doing

 

Then tell me how many times you DON'T have to use a major cool down to score a kill when focused

 

No, but it also sounds more like you need to l2p. I play alongside and against WH geared players all the time. Marauders are crazy at the moment. I appreciate it even more now that I play one.

 

Like.... http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/915/640ks.jpg

Edited May 21, 2012 by Fafryd

[Xerain]

No, but it also sounds more like you need to l2p. I play alongside and against WH geared players all the time. Marauders are crazy at the moment. I appreciate it even more now that I play one.

 

Like.... http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/915/640ks.jpg

 

and you got a 5k hit? Whats the big deal there? And you're in a voidstar that went 0-0

Edited May 21, 2012 by Xerain

[Fafryd]

Whats the big deal there?

 

No, just a normal WZ. The poster apparently has to use a cooldown to get 'a kill' if you read his comment (which he qualifies by when focused, which is nice because at least Marauders cooldowns allow them to survive when focused as opposed to everyone else who just die outright). Here's 640k damage, 0 deaths 59 kills. Obviously had a lot of cooldowns.

 

PS. Quite a lot of archtypes cannot get the 5k hit medal.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Fafryd

[Arkerus]

1. Redesign Undeying Rage / Guarded By The Force:

• Deflect Either White -OR- Yellow damage abilities for the duration, Not Both[/u].
  or
  
• Reduce Damage Done by 50% for it's duration
  

 

2. Redesign rage cost of interrupt and duration of 20% healing debuff

• Make Marauders interrupt ability cost 2 rage & decrease the duration of the 20% heal debuff. As it stands now, these 2 abilities are far to easy to use and don't require any skill to coordinate. You can keep the 20% heal debuff on a player indefinitely, instead of timing it precisely when you need to burn your target down. The interrupt feels like a free lol @ casters ability and costs no talent points or rage to use, which means a Mara can just hit any buttons they want and not have to worry about having enough resources to be able to lockout another class.
  

 

----------

A marauder at say 2k health that uses this cooldown feels like there is no risk involved in the 50% health sacrifice (ok I am at 2k, so I am going to die anyway, lets sacrifice 1k health which is irrelevant at this point) and then is healed to or above 50% or has about 3 extra globals to finish off their target whom cannot do damage to them and has to sit through it. There is no other class in this game that has an almost 99% immunity cooldown to both White & Yellow Damage attacks.

 

Examples:

Assassin Defensive Cooldown Force Shroud - Only stops Yellow Damage (Tech) for a few seconds

 

Imperial Agent Defensive Cooldown Evasion - Dodges all White Damage (Melee/Ranged) for a few seconds

 

The Marauder cooldown should mimic one of the above so that they are still killable just like everyonebody else. As it stands now, you can beat a marauder 1v1 by LOSing during their defensive cooldowns and or CCing them during it. However, a team of say 6marauders and 2healers vs 6ranged and 2healers will present a significant problem due to the 20% healing reduction, multiple defensive cooldowns, and everytime they vanish, your target becomes another marauder with the same defensive cooldowns up, and they can interrupt and lockout ranged classes from doing their damage. Obviously, 6 of any class will be hard to go against, but especially classes with multiple defensive cooldowns to delay death. 6marauders on a team might be an extreme case, but I imagine seeing 3-4 on many teams.

 

I do believe that making some of these changes will not drop your marauder subscription numbers and should prevent a larger group of subscribers from canceling their subscriptions from Marauder QQ.

----------

 

Omitted:

-Reduce All Damage Taken -AND- Healing Received by 99%

• An argument has been made that having 99% heal reduction will waste a healers rescources while trying to heal a marauder at low health. As a result, I will be omitting this bullet point.

-Make it a guaranteed death at the end of the duration

• Argument against this is that this would be a bad idea for using the ability in PvE. A Marauder will become a liability class because they will have to die in order to survive a big boss AE attack. As a result, I will be omitting this bullet point.

 

A marauder/sent loses HALF THEIR HEALTH when they use it. Its not in any way OP. Half their health. Ok? Get it? I'm not trying to be a jerk but there is already a massive penalty when they use it.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Arkerus

[Xerain]

No, just a normal WZ. The poster apparently has to use a cooldown to get 'a kill' if you read his comment (which he qualifies by when focused, which is nice because at least Marauders cooldowns allow them to survive when focused as opposed to everyone else who just die outright). Here's 640k damage, 0 deaths 59 kills. Obviously had a lot of cooldowns.

 

PS. Quite a lot of archtypes cannot get the 5k hit medal.

 

Who can't get a 5k hit medal?

 

Someone dropping guard and taunts on a person under FF with heals will allow them to survive too, and your point? Also operatives and assassins can survive focus fire.

[Dayshadow]

Bioware will nerf marauders the only way they know how... anally, without lube... using a sandpaper condom.

 

Nrfing marauders isn't going to lose them subscriptions. People said they same thing about sorcs before they got *****. People will just move to the next FOTM.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Dayshadow

[Bpotux]

A marauder/sent loses HALF THEIR HEALTH when they use it. Its not in any way OP. Half their health. Ok? Get it? I'm not trying to be a jerk but there is already a massive penalty when they use it.

 

Half of a very small number is still a very small, pitiful, tiny, insignificant number. Ok? Get it? If you're using it at 100% HP - you should uninstall.

[LiveandDieinLA]

Half of a very small number is still a very small, pitiful, tiny, insignificant number. Ok? Get it? If you're using it at 100% HP - you should uninstall.

 

The penalty forces you to use it only at the end of a fight, which makes the skill easy to counter and predictable.