>> How To Nerf Marauders Without Losing Subscriber Base

[Altruismo]

Well you take all variables into account and the ability doesn't look as over powered, you can't just look at the good and disregard the bad.

 

I don't think UR is overpowered, I think being able to use UR on 100% health and then still having 100% health when it wears off is broken.

So do you, you said so yourself earlier in this thread - or to be fair, you said it would be broken if it was possible.

Well, it is possible, you simply can not deny that fact, and it's not even hard: A Mara who queues with just one Op healer can potentially do it every single time, and is almost certain to pull it off most times.

There's only one way to stop that from happening without rendering the power useless, and that's to debuff healing received while it's active.

You still can't be killed while it's on, you can use it just as frequently, you can still deal full damage (which you 100% should) .

Seriously, if healing during UR is as insignificant an issue as you claim it is, why are you so resistant to a change?

[criminalheretic]

How to nerf Marauders without losing the subscriber base:

 

-- Rated Warzones & server transfers --

 

Marauders + good players vs bad players = OP Marauders .

 

Marauders + good players vs equally good players = balanced game on.

 

Just my opinion, I just feel like nerfs to individual classes solve nothing and spend valuable development time fixing things that dont make the overall game better.

 

After Marauders it will be Powertechs, after Powertechs it will be Assassins and Shadows. Meanwhile no WZ's and people play guild wars and tera and hello kitty and facebook.

 

Amen. Nerf empty servers!

[Xtrema]

Plain and simple NO. A marauder is a pure dps class. They dont have heavy armor, they dont have heals and they are melee. A marauder can be easily killed, they are no glass cannon but they can still be killed pretty quick. I have seen a 6 Marauder team in a warzone get smoked. So the logic is not there. YOu just want to see them nerfed into the ground because you are being killed by the one true melee dps class. Sorry but this is the kind of crap qq post ends a game faster than you can blink your eyes.

 

none of his suggestions would be 'nerfing into the ground' because it has nothing to do with the dps. The problem most people have with marauder/sents now is that it's hard to understand why the highest dps class in the game also has arguably the best defensive cooldowns.

 

Marauders also have the largest disparity of skill, I've had fights with sents/maras that are super super close, and I've obliterated other marauders without going through a full rotation. You've seen 6 marauders get smoked? Just yesterday I saw a team with 6 sents and zero healers completely dominate novare, granted our side was a PUG, but there's two sides of the coin, not just the side you wanna see.

[criminalheretic]

I don't think UR is overpowered, I think being able to use UR on 100% health and then still having 100% health when it wears off is broken.

So do you, you said so yourself earlier in this thread - or to be fair, you said it would be broken if it was possible.

Well, it is possible, you simply can not deny that fact, and it's not even hard: A Mara who queues with just one Op healer can potentially do it every single time, and is almost certain to pull it off most times.

There's only one way to stop that from happening without rendering the power useless, and that's to debuff healing received while it's active.

You still can't be killed while it's on, you can use it just as frequently, you can still deal full damage (which you 100% should) .

Seriously, if healing during UR is as insignificant an issue as you claim it is, why are you so resistant to a change?

 

Healing during UR is not "insignificant", it is just no more significant than healing going on to other classes or even to a Marauder not using UR.

[Altruismo]

Healing during UR is not "insignificant", it is just no more significant than healing going on to other classes or even to a Marauder not using UR.

 

Do you even understand that there is an interaction between healing and mitigation?

[criminalheretic]

none of his suggestions would be 'nerfing into the ground' because it has nothing to do with the dps. The problem most people have with marauder/sents now is that it's hard to understand why the highest dps class in the game also has arguably the best defensive cooldowns.

 

Marauders also have the largest disparity of skill, I've had fights with sents/maras that are super super close, and I've obliterated other marauders without going through a full rotation. You've seen 6 marauders get smoked? Just yesterday I saw a team with 6 sents and zero healers completely dominate novare, granted our side was a PUG, but there's two sides of the coin, not just the side you wanna see.

 

The simple answer to that is because THEY NEED THEM. They don't have heavy armor (20% damage reduction over medium that lasts all match long with no CD or activation) they don't have healing, and they don't have ranged. To do their job, they have to run INTO fights. You run into fights you put yourself in a position to take a LOT of damage, the answer to that is defensive CDs. People can't talk about defensive CDs and DPS for Marauders like they are separate subjects. Take away the defensive CDs, you ltierally kill the class, there is no middle ground.

 

And these posts are driven by individual experiences. While statistically, Marauders don't out damage the other DPS classes, and they die just as often. Take away the defensive CDs from a class that still dies 10-13 times a match, and they will die 20-26 times a match, which will put their DPS on par with a healer, maybe.

[criminalheretic]

Do you even understand that there is an interaction between healing and mitigation?

 

Do you even understand the interaction between healing and mitigation is subsequent to the discretion of the person applying the healing, and that while the period of mitigation provides an obvious and opportune moment to apply said healing, anything subject to the discretion of another player is not specific to, or an inherent aspect of a particular class or ability?

 

I can patronize too, with run-on sentences even.

[Xtrema]

The simple answer to that is because THEY NEED THEM. They don't have heavy armor (20% damage reduction over medium that lasts all match long with no CD or activation) they don't have healing, and they don't have ranged. To do their job, they have to run INTO fights. You run into fights you put yourself in a position to take a LOT of damage, the answer to that is defensive CDs. People can't talk about defensive CDs and DPS for Marauders like they are separate subjects. Take away the defensive CDs, you ltierally kill the class, there is no middle ground.

 

And these posts are driven by individual experiences. While statistically, Marauders don't out damage the other DPS classes, and they die just as often. Take away the defensive CDs from a class that still dies 10-13 times a match, and they will die 20-26 times a match, which will put their DPS on par with a healer, maybe.

 

ur taking things to the extreme again, did the OP say take away the abilities? 10-13 times to 20-26? LoL? I'm melee DPS and don't have nearly that much CDs and don't die half that much. Heavy over medium is meh, so much damage circumvents the physical armor rating. You're obviously a marauder cuz ur getting so defensive. Whatever, jt doesn't matter what anybody says, this is ultimately moot as we don't work for BW.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Xtrema

[Xerain]

I don't think UR is overpowered, I think being able to use UR on 100% health and then still having 100% health when it wears off is broken.

So do you, you said so yourself earlier in this thread - or to be fair, you said it would be broken if it was possible.

Well, it is possible, you simply can not deny that fact, and it's not even hard: A Mara who queues with just one Op healer can potentially do it every single time, and is almost certain to pull it off most times.

There's only one way to stop that from happening without rendering the power useless, and that's to debuff healing received while it's active.

You still can't be killed while it's on, you can use it just as frequently, you can still deal full damage (which you 100% should) .

Seriously, if healing during UR is as insignificant an issue as you claim it is, why are you so resistant to a change?

 

So right when i jump into a fight i should call out for heals from my healer, pop UR, and then LOLDAMAGE? That is what i should do and then it will be considered op'ed huh?

 

My healers resources and time can go to something much better in that situation.

 

Because it doesn't need changed. With a healer around people get heals whenever they want. If you have a medpack that's not on CD you get to use it whenever you want. When you choose to use it is up to you, shouldn't be taken away from a marauder just because he popped a cool down.

[Vid-szhite]

So right when i jump into a fight i should call out for heals from my healer, pop UR, and then LOLDAMAGE? That is what i should do and then it will be considered op'ed huh?

 

My healers resources and time can go to something much better in that situation.

 

Because it doesn't need changed. With a healer around people get heals whenever they want. If you have a medpack that's not on CD you get to use it whenever you want. When you choose to use it is up to you, shouldn't be taken away from a marauder just because he popped a cool down.

 

Reducing healing received will break Marauders in PvE. All Undying Rage needs is a longer cooldown or less of an effect.

[darkusnite]

none of his suggestions would be 'nerfing into the ground' because it has nothing to do with the dps. The problem most people have with marauder/sents now is that it's hard to understand why the highest dps class in the game also has arguably the best defensive cooldowns.

 

 

One of his suggestions, "Reduce Damage Done by 50% for it's duration," directly affects dps. Lets clear this up.

 

1. If a healer decides to do his job and tops off a Marauders during UR, then that is an outside influence that has nothing to do with the mechanics of the ability and everything to do with classes doing their job.

 

2. An Annihilation Marauder that sets up his rotation correctly, self-heals, and pops a medpac during UR is playing this ONE spec correctly. The trade off with an Annihilation rotation(as opposed to the other two burst specs), is that it takes a combination of 6+ abilities with situational abilities, and takes time to get rolling and get dots ticking. So in between stuns, knockbacks, push/pulls, and snares....yes we need UR as is to maintain our rotation and peak our dps. The other two specs, Rage and Carnage, probably need UR more than Annihilation.

 

3. So why are Marauders in the limelight now?

A. Pre 1.2, Marauders trying to gear up in WZ were underdogs. Being very gear dependent, we fruitlessly swatted our glow sticks at Sorcs and other ranged classes that could bubble, walk through the fires in huttball, or knock back our stun us while laughing in their PVE gear.

- A well geared Marauder could be a beast granted, but only the Founders that started a Marauder as a main( like me since launch) would actually stick with it. I will admit I had major class envy seeing Sorcs and BHs topping the charts and being game changers in Warzones. I even rolled alts and could tell a huge difference in survivability/utility with minimal gear starting out.

 

B. Post 1.2, the changes to expertise and the melee buff have created a schism. Once faithful players that use to wipe the floor have unsubbed or rerolled. The hype of Marauders actually having 3 viable specs to choose from instead of Annihilation being the standard(which got nerfed/adjusted), also may have caused some people to switch to an alt or reroll all together. Bottom line is, there are more Marauders to deal with so more people are noticing them. We had UR before 1.2 and yes, the same suggested nerfs were thrown out then too.

 

Conclusion: In objective-based gameplay, UR is fine. In death-match or arena battles it would be a different story and may require an adjustment. There is also a contrast between PUGs and Premades that could make any one class look OP with pocket healers.

[Altruismo]

I can patronize too, with run-on sentences even.

 

If you come out and say that healing someone with 99% mitigation is no different to healing someone with ~20-50% mitigation, asking if you understand the interaction between healing and mitigation is not patronising, it's a legitimate question.

 

Reducing healing received will break Marauders in PvE. All Undying Rage needs is a longer cooldown or less of an effect.

 

This is a legitimate concern, but to be broken in PVE by losing healing during UR a Marauder's role in PVE would have to hinge on their ability to be healed buring UR.

Do you honestly think it does, and are you able to epxlain why?

Edited May 18, 2012 by Altruismo

[Xerain]

If you come out and say that healing someone with 99% mitigation is no different to healing someone with ~20-50% mitigation, asking if you understand the interaction between healing and mitigation is not patronising, it's a legitimate question.

 

Should we get into this whole healing thing? A ranged player can run away from a melee and take 0 damage, why not give ranged players a 100% healing reduction while they're running and not taking damage? That defense is op'ed!!!

[Vid-szhite]

Should we get into this whole healing thing? A ranged player can run away from a melee and take 0 damage, why not give ranged players a 100% healing reduction while they're running and not taking damage? That defense is op'ed!!!

 

That's would be debatable if Undying Rage only mitigated damage from ranged characters. I don't play a ranged character, I play a Jugg, and Undying Rage is the I Win button against me. Even if I force choke, it's over. He has me dotted and I will die soon. Without Undying Rage, the fight is very close but I will win if he's no good. Even if he's a bad Marauder, he will beat me with Undying Rage 1v1.

 

If you have allowed a ranged character to get away from you when you have leg slash, that's your own fault.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Altruismo]

Should we get into this whole healing thing? A ranged player can run away from a melee and take 0 damage, why not give ranged players a 100% healing reduction while they're running and not taking damage? That defense is op'ed!!!

 

I thought you didn't like comparing apples to oranges.

This particular problem that melee have is why you've got the gap closers, roots and snares that you do.

Some more than others, some less (talk to melee OPS about gap closers)

[vimm]

21k hp on a tank, down to 2k hitpoints left, like your hypotetical marauder. Pops Endure, hp goes to 8300 (increased by 30% by endure pain) out of a possible 27300. Pops a WZ medpac heals to 17855 (healed 9555 by WZ medpac) . Used focused defense assuming he gets max benefit (has enough rage/focus for ticks throughout its 10 sec duration-1 gcd) gets healed for 7371 to 25226 / 27300. Endure pain duration ends and loses 8190 hp (30% out of max) to 17036 / 21000.

 

Assuming he did no damage, since he neded the rage/focus for self heal, he heals 15036 hp over 10 seconds while getting focus fired by ppl for full dmg and likely to die before those 10 sec are even up.

 

VS

 

Marauder having 99% dmg immunity for 5 seconds and healing 5700 from WZ medpac out of 19k hp pool..

 

Which is more valuable 99% dmg immunity for 5 seconds where you do full dmg OR a 9336 heal (the difference) over 10 seconds? where you have to sacrifice health gained if you want to do any dmg due to rage/focus constraints

 

 

FIXED

 

 

*add to that, force camo on 45 seconds as both a defensive and offensive cooldown*

 

Just saying

 

So destroyed.

[Vid-szhite]

This is a legitimate concern, but to be broken in PVE by losing healing during UR a Marauder's role in PVE would have to hinge on their ability to be healed buring UR.

Do you honestly think it does, and are you able to epxlain why?

 

If a Marauder is using Undying Rage, they were already about to die, because it removes 50% of their HP and is normally used at low HP. This means the healers would be scrambling to get them topped off. If the healers can no longer heal the marauder during this emergency, the healers have wasted their resources on the Marauder, when healing resources are at a prime in endgame fights. It would make Marauders undesirable in PvE, because of the risk that he will be a bad player and pop Undying Rage at all. It's difficult to tell when a Marauder is using Undying Rage when you are a healer, and even if you wait the 6s like you should, that marauder might now die from a random AoE, meaning you couldn't have saved them unless you were a Sorc.

[Xerain]

I thought you didn't like comparing apples to oranges.

This particular problem that melee have is why you've got the gap closers, roots and snares that you do.

Some more than others, some less (talk to melee OPS about gap closers)

 

And ranged has knockbacks, stuns, snares, and mezzes.

 

Melee ops have stealth that's a gap closer.

[Altruismo]

This means the healers would be scrambling to get them topped off. If the healers can no longer heal the marauder during this emergency, the healers have wasted their resources on the Marauder, when healing resources are at a prime in endgame fights.

 

You know, that's a good point.

How relevant is it with taunts and agro management in-game though.

I'd think that a Mara who's constantly pulling agro needs to reel it in a bit anyway, particularly with camo as an agro sink.

I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way, but I wonder how often a "top tier" PVE playing Mara would die if it were not for being healed while UR'd, and would they be able to shake some agro during that 5 seconds if they knew they had to?

 

And ranged has knockbacks, stuns, snares, and mezzes.

Of course, if ranged could never get away from you or you could never close on ranged things would be stupid.

I personally think the gap closer/opener issue is pretty balanced in this game, but I also think it's a completely different topic to how much you get healed while UR is on.

 

Melee ops have stealth that's a gap closer.

 

You're right, and I agree - they also have a 10m range 50% snare, can spec for another 10m range 30% snare, and have a 10m range mezz, but I can still see their frustration when I see them running along, stuck in combat, 15-20m from a guy they really need to catch and not being able to do anything.

Wait, I exaggerate - no able to do anything but some fairly ineffectualy pew-pew that keeps them in combat.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Altruismo

[Xerain]

You know, that's a good point.

How relevant is it with taunts and agro management in-game though.

I'd think that a Mara who's constantly pulling agro needs to reel it in a bit anyway, particularly with camo as an agro sink.

I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way, but I wonder how often a "top tier" PVE playing Mara would die if it were not for being healed while UR'd, and would they be able to shake some agro during that 5 seconds if they knew they had to?

 

 

Of course, if ranged could never get away from you or you could never close on ranged things would be stupid.

I personally think the gap closer/opener issue is pretty balanced in this game, but I also think it's a completely different topic to how much you get healed while UR is on.

 

 

 

You're right, and I agree - they also have a 10m range 50% snare, can spec for another 10m range 30% snare, and have a 10m range mezz, but I can still see their frustration when I see them running along, stuck in combat, 15-20m from a guy they really need to catch and not being able to do anything.

Wait, I exaggerate - no able to do anything but some fairly ineffectualy pew-pew that keeps them in combat.

 

You do know a marauder has to run up to his opponents almost 100% of the time while not being in stealth and unable to do anything don't you? The only time i get the luxury of a charge is when i know their knock back is already blown or i know the class i'm targeting doesn't have one.

 

Ranged has plenty of tools to keep a melee off of them. Merc and Sorc both have cleanses ontop of it all. Undying rage is fine and so is everything else in this game so stop crying nerf.

[Altruismo]

You do know a marauder has to run up to his opponents almost 100% of the time while not being in stealth and unable to do anything don't you? The only time i get the luxury of a charge is when i know their knock back is already blown or i know the class i'm targeting doesn't have one.

 

Ranged has plenty of tools to keep a melee off of them. Merc and Sorc both have cleanses ontop of it all. Undying rage is fine and so is everything else in this game so stop crying nerf.

 

You also know that ranged has to move into range of their targets too, we don't just stand in spawn and shoot through walls.

I've got the luxury of hitting that guy 30-35m away until he steps 1m to the left and there's a pillar in the way (or 1m closer and my "cover" is now in the way), you've got the luxury of never having to move further than your target does.

Neither of us always has the ability to move and attack where and when we want, but my problems are not your problems, and vice versa.

 

You also know that there's another Knight/Warrior AC that has leaps out the wazoo and can have knockback/CC resistance after using some of them. Like I said, some melee close better than others, just like some ranged ACs make space better than others.

Apples, oranges, even some peaches and pears thrown in there.

 

Somehow we've gone from whether or not you should heal while under UR to whether or not it's fair that you have to get to 4m from your target and I can stay 35m away.

I believe that's why you need a 20% damage reduction cooldown, and a 50% damage reduction invisibility speed buff colldown, and a 99% damage reduction cooldown, and a leap, and a spammable 50% snare, and a -90% accuracy debuff, and a 10m range stun, and a 50% movement speed buff with a ranged defense buff, and a few extra gap/snare tools that you can spec for and another defensive cooldown I didn't bother to mention.

But you seem to think it's why you need to be healed during UR.

Mate, I wouldn't want to take a single one of those tools away from you because Mara/Sents need them to do what they do, but I think you can manage to close the gap even without getting healed during that particular 5 seconds.

[Xerain]

You also know that ranged has to move into range of their targets too, we don't just stand in spawn and shoot through walls.

I've got the luxury of hitting that guy 30-35m away until he steps 1m to the left and there's a pillar in the way (or 1m closer and my "cover" is now in the way), you've got the luxury of never having to move further than your target does.

Neither of us always has the ability to move and attack where and when we want, but my problems are not your problems, and vice versa.

 

You also know that there's another Knight/Warrior AC that has leaps out the wazoo and can have knockback/CC resistance after using some of them. Like I said, some melee close better than others, just like some ranged ACs make space better than others.

Apples, oranges, even some peaches and pears thrown in there.

 

Somehow we've gone from whether or not you should heal while under UR to whether or not it's fair that you have to get to 4m from your target and I can stay 35m away.

I believe that's why you need a 20% damage reduction cooldown, and a 50% damage reduction invisibility speed buff colldown, and a 99% damage reduction cooldown, and a leap, and a spammable 50% snare, and a -90% accuracy debuff, and a 10m range stun, and a 50% movement speed buff with a ranged defense buff, and a few extra gap/snare tools that you can spec for and another defensive cooldown I didn't bother to mention.

But you seem to think it's why you need to be healed during UR.

Mate, I wouldn't want to take a single one of those tools away from you because Mara/Sents need them to do what they do, but I think you can manage to close the gap even without getting healed during that particular 5 seconds.

 

Because a marauder is choosing to use a medpack during those 5 seconds or pop berserk for dot heals during those 5 seconds makes the ability oped? Other classes get to choose when they pop their heals. Why is it so op'ed for a marauder to choose to do it then?

[Altruismo]

Because a marauder is choosing to use a medpack during those 5 seconds or pop berserk for dot heals during those 5 seconds makes the ability oped? Other classes get to choose when they pop their heals. Why is it so op'ed for a marauder to choose to do it then?

 

Quit with the OP.

 

1. I think: Unkillable for 5 seconds, dealing 100% damage, is fine.

 

2. I also think: "50% health cost" power where you can start on 100% and end on 100% is broken.

 

3. I also think the 15% ravage damage buff was unneccessary, but it broke nothing.

 

Everything else about Maras I'm 100% cool with, they kill me, I kill them - world turns.

I even happen to think cloak of pain is fine - awesome, but fine.

 

Pay attention to that second point, and read your own posts, you have said yourself, that starting and ending UR on 100% health would be broken.

It can and does happen, though.

How would you stop that from being possible if you don't want to see healing reduced whil UR is in effect?

[Xerain]

Quit with the OP.

 

1. I think: Unkillable for 5 seconds, dealing 100% damage, is fine.

 

2. I also think: "50% health cost" power where you can start on 100% and end on 100% is broken.

 

3. I also think the 15% ravage damage buff was unneccessary, but it broke nothing.

 

Everything else about Maras I'm 100% cool with, they kill me, I kill them - world turns.

I even happen to think cloak of pain is fine - awesome, but fine.

 

Pay attention to that second point, and read your own posts, you have said yourself, that starting and ending UR on 100% health would be broken.

It can and does happen, though.

How would you stop that from being possible if you don't want to see healing reduced whil UR is in effect?

 

No i said it'd be broken if i could start a fight with 99% damage reduction and not lose any health over it. Only way i'm ending on 100 is with a healer around and i'm not poping the CD right away just for a healer to heal the 9k of my hp up. The healer focus is better off somewhere else.

 

Also I agree with your #3 point.

[alcek]

a class that is not wearing heavy armor

The difference between a dps guardian /not in soresu/ and a sentinel in equal gear is 5-6% in damage intake.

cannot significantly heal

The sentinels with the talented heal on dot generally recover more health than my guardian in the duration of a wz. And i have 3 ways to get some health back - set bonus on gear, that heals me when i use guardian leap, small heal on cc break, and the heal over time ability. So you heal exaclty as good, if not better than a guardian for example.

yet HAS to run AT their enemy to be effective

I do need that too, but i have neither your burst, nor your survivability, nor your get out of jail card, nor your over the top cooldowns.