Bioware on HUTTBALL

[pbxsparx]

Q&A May 11, 2012

 

Gidoru: Currently in Huttball, certain classes have huge advantages, to the point where, without them, you have a considerably lesser chance of winning. The classes I speak of are namely Sages, Guardians, and their Imperial counterparts that are able to leap and pull across the map granting great mobility. Any chance of changes that prevent the ball carrier from using abilities like leap or being pulled?

 

Gabe Amatangelo (PvP & Endgame Designer): It is something we considered early in development of the map. However, we aimed to ensure every class had a role as opposed to effectively turning classes off when they carry the ball. Granted, some of those roles are not as obvious or have a steeper learning curve than simply getting the ball over the line (i.e. controlling the middle, cover defense, controlling hazard lines, etc.). The team composition win ratios suggest those roles are playing out for the most part. For example, teams with all Sages and Guardians do not even appear in the top 100 win ratios and the composition with the highest win ratios include a fairly even distribution of Advanced Classes. That, of course, is not an absolute conclusion, especially considering full team compositions rely on matchmaking. We’ll pay close attention to the variance in composition win ratio considering rating when full team queuing is enabled.

 

I am sorry but I just find this response to be hilarious.

 

All top PvP players in any server knows that HUTTBALL is the only Warzone that trumps skill vs composition. Having neither a consular nor a knight in a game of huttball VS an opposing team with either or having both the mentioned classes pretty much sums up the result of the WZ before it had even started.

 

The statistics mentioned (top 100 win ratios), I'm wondering if this was specifically the WIN RATIO from only huttball itself. Because I'm lead to believe that if the team composition of majority if not full consulars and knights aren't even in the top 100 WIN RATIO compositions for huttball that the data gathered is definitely false OR there must really be too many people lacking skills playing the specified classes in the game of huttball.

 

The issue is that the Obstacles in HUTTBALL could easily be disregarded by the 2 classes. There are 3 levels of floors starting from the pit (trench) up until the highest floor (3rd). Picture it and just imagine how knights could just bypass most of the pathway and obstacles provided they have a visible target to leap to, now compare it with the other 3 classes. How much path must these 3 classes travel to be able to get to the 2nd level from the pit? Or from the 2nd level to the 3rd? Now the sages on the other hand do need to travel to a designated spot before they could help a team member bypass these obstacles/pathway with their rescue but still the point is again the obstacles could be disregarded.

 

The suggested solution is simple, Ball Carrier no matter what class it may be it just cannot use any mobility aid. Take the slow debuff off of the ball and make ball carriers run at normal combat speed. Cannot leap cannot be rescued, let all classes walk the path they should be walking to score. Encourage the use of the feature "Throw the Huttball" and let players learn how to really pass effectively and position themselves whilst guarding their posts rather than right after getting the ball have the mentality of "OH WE HAVE A GUARDIAN PASS IT TO HIM AND HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE REST".

 

This is of course just my opinion.

[Zataos]

You then need to make the ball carrier immune to all knockbacks as well right, since some classes don't have those either. Right?

[pbxsparx]

You then need to make the ball carrier immune to all knockbacks as well right, since some classes don't have those either. Right?

 

Why make ball carriers immune to knockbacks? Immunity from knockbacks can be acquired through resolve.

 

If you say ball carriers who has knockbacks skills gets those skills disabled whilst carrying the ball then that would make more sense than being immune to knockbacks.

[zoltarDO]

I look at it a little differently. While during 1 match I may be pitted against a whole team that has that kind of advantage, it is fair to say that the next match I may very well have those people on my team. It's just the way that goes and the luck of the draw. Life is full of imbalance, why should the game be any different? I shouldn't be nerfed for weighing 220 and being 6 foot 3 when you are 160 and 5 foot 4.

[V-Serp]

Why make ball carriers immune to knockbacks? Immunity from knockbacks can be acquired through resolve.

 

If you say ball carriers who has knockbacks skills gets those skills disabled whilst carrying the ball then that would make more sense than being immune to knockbacks.

 

If ball carriers can't be sped up or moved by friendly effects, why should they be victimized by negative effects? You're just not being consistent. Why should a BH/Trooper be able to pull an enemy ball carrier?

[Crawelc]

Zoltar, thanks for putting my favorite SW quote in your sig. Lmao my 2 boys have know that quote since they were able to talk. Its kinda like our house rule.

[zoltarDO]

Zoltar, thanks for putting my favorite SW quote in your sig. Lmao my 2 boys have know that quote since they were able to talk. Its kinda like our house rule.

 

too funny! it's very interesting because I didn't even realize he said that while I was growing up until I finally watched it with my oldest son 3 months ago! :-) yoda had a lot of good things to say. he will be missed

[pbxsparx]

If ball carriers can't be sped up or moved by friendly effects, why should they be victimized by negative effects? You're just not being consistent. Why should a BH/Trooper be able to pull an enemy ball carrier?

 

The suggested solution was the ball carrier not getting the current ball slow debuff all together which means you are actually walking the same speed as everybody else so there would be no need for you to be sped up at all. Hence the encourage the ball passing part. Now If I had forgotten to mention the enemy pulls then let it be any movement impairments or aids be completely deflected or disabled.

 

And please do take note that this suggested solution only applies to The Current Ball Carrier. Consulars could still rescue someone to position them in preparation for a pass. Knights could still leap somewhere where there's a target visible and push off enemies while anticipating an upcoming pass.

[Phatkillz]

I too made a post weeks ago regarding this issue. Bioware's response was to remove the post, after several complaints to costumer service. (several complaints because all of the replies were the same canned cut and paste response not dealing with the issue.) I finally received a response in all its glory typos and all proclaiming that everything is working as intended.

 

They could try to balance the teams a bit, which sadly at this point is impossible since warzones currently take for ever to queue.

[BraaxusKun]

Learn to play your class and stop crying

 

Or just que with the classes you need

[cashogy]

The suggested solution was the ball carrier not getting the current ball slow debuff all together which means you are actually walking the same speed as everybody else so there would be no need for you to be sped up at all. Hence the encourage the ball passing part. Now If I had forgotten to mention the enemy pulls then let it be any movement impairments or aids be completely deflected or disabled.

 

And please do take note that this suggested solution only applies to The Current Ball Carrier. Consulars could still rescue someone to position them in preparation for a pass. Knights could still leap somewhere where there's a target visible and push off enemies while anticipating an upcoming pass.

 

this is a terrible solution, and would only make the problem worse.

 

the correct way to make huttball require teamwork and not the largest number of force using classes would be to prevent the ball carrier from being affected by all movement effects. no force speed, no friendly or enemy pulls, no knockback, etc. the emphasis of the game would then be on passing, positioning, and ball movement.

 

right now, 3 players can win huttball against a group of 8. 2 sorcs and a jugg, and you can score in about 30 seconds, rinse repeat. if this makes it to ranked warzones it is going to be a joke

[pbxsparx]

this is a terrible solution, and would only make the problem worse.

 

the correct way to make huttball require teamwork and not the largest number of force using classes would be to prevent the ball carrier from being affected by all movement effects. no force speed, no friendly or enemy pulls, no knockback, etc. the emphasis of the game would then be on passing, positioning, and ball movement.

 

right now, 3 players can win huttball against a group of 8. 2 sorcs and a jugg, and you can score in about 30 seconds, rinse repeat. if this makes it to ranked warzones it is going to be a joke

 

That was the suggested solution...

[Ahhmyface]

Huttball is pretty much the most balanced map at high levels of play. (Alderaab point defense, for example, is very tank biased)

 

At low levels of play, well, I'm sorry, but you need to L2P.

 

You can't have a team that is providing jump points for leapers. Or that fills resolve too early.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[pbxsparx]

Huttball is pretty much the most balanced map at high levels of play. (Alderaab point defense, for example, is very tank biased)

 

At low levels of play, well, I'm sorry, but you need to L2P.

 

You can't have a team that is providing jump points for leapers. Or that fills resolve too early.

 

This is coming from an Assassin who could pretty much go through only 1 fire hazard from the midpoint and score in huttball. And please sir do explain and justify the last part of your post.

[Smashbrother]

Q&A May 11, 2012

 

 

 

I am sorry but I just find this response to be hilarious.

 

All top PvP players in any server knows that HUTTBALL is the only Warzone that trumps skill vs composition. Having neither a consular nor a knight in a game of huttball VS an opposing team with either or having both the mentioned classes pretty much sums up the result of the WZ before it had even started.

 

The statistics mentioned (top 100 win ratios), I'm wondering if this was specifically the WIN RATIO from only huttball itself. Because I'm lead to believe that if the team composition of majority if not full consulars and knights aren't even in the top 100 WIN RATIO compositions for huttball that the data gathered is definitely false OR there must really be too many people lacking skills playing the specified classes in the game of huttball.

 

The issue is that the Obstacles in HUTTBALL could easily be disregarded by the 2 classes. There are 3 levels of floors starting from the pit (trench) up until the highest floor (3rd). Picture it and just imagine how knights could just bypass most of the pathway and obstacles provided they have a visible target to leap to, now compare it with the other 3 classes. How much path must these 3 classes travel to be able to get to the 2nd level from the pit? Or from the 2nd level to the 3rd? Now the sages on the other hand do need to travel to a designated spot before they could help a team member bypass these obstacles/pathway with their rescue but still the point is again the obstacles could be disregarded.

 

The suggested solution is simple, Ball Carrier no matter what class it may be it just cannot use any mobility aid. Take the slow debuff off of the ball and make ball carriers run at normal combat speed. Cannot leap cannot be rescued, let all classes walk the path they should be walking to score. Encourage the use of the feature "Throw the Huttball" and let players learn how to really pass effectively and position themselves whilst guarding their posts rather than right after getting the ball have the mentality of "OH WE HAVE A GUARDIAN PASS IT TO HIM AND HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE REST".

 

This is of course just my opinion.

 

I've had games where most of us were sages and guardians, while the other team was more balanced. We got rolled. While it was easy for us to score when we got ball, we could absolutley not control middle nor play defense. This meant the other team got the ball all the time once they took over mid, which lead to their winning.

 

So basically you need to learn2play if you think a team of sages/guardians will always lead to victory.

[Ahhmyface]

This is coming from an Assassin who could pretty much go through only 1 fire hazard from the midpoint and score in huttball. And please sir do explain and justify the last part of your post.

 

Yes, and if you'd bothered read the word beside "Assassin" in my sig closer, you'll see that it's deception. Meaning I am squishy, my force shroud is an itty bitty 3 seconds, I have only 1 CC breaker, and my force speed has a long cooldown. If I get knocked off an edge I'm no longer a useful carrier (and I will get knocked off). Smart play trumps everything. A good team will make that 1 fire hazard impossible to get to, let alone to cross. Between pulls, roots, kbs... No class is immune to a good team.

 

Snipers, mercs should be controlling the middle, and preventing anybody from crossing the first fire.

Assassins should be up on the top level and assisting in running the ball. Basically force speed and then pass.

Juggs and marauders should be your primary pit dwellers, because of their ability to get up and out if they can get the ball.

All stealth classes make great surprise pass points. Just get into a position where your team can pass to you, and unstealth. Enemy team rarely sees it coming. You can even play a dedicated role, just camping various strategic points in stealth.

Healers, heal and pull.

DPS operatives are deadly ball carrier killers.

[flem]

right now, 3 players can win huttball against a group of 8. 2 sorcs and a jugg, and you can score in about 30 seconds, rinse repeat. if this makes it to ranked warzones it is going to be a joke

If this actually happens on your server, then the teams there are still bad. Really bad. Yeah, these classes are useful, but only in the context of balanced team play.

 

Shield spec Vanguards and kinetic Shadows, now they're scary even mostly solo.

[fungihoujo]

No mention on how sorcs/sages can do diddly to control mid or provide defensive ability or damage down a ball carrier? Oh, yeah, sure, they can pull the carrier- that's the only thing they bring to a huttball team, after that they're done.

 

Why not look at how some classes can just become immune to damage and walk through fire? Or grapple a carrier from the goal line to a fire gout to prevent a cap? Or stealth to the endzone, and appear when your team's in the pit for an easy catch and cap?

 

 

If you're going to target abilities that make ball capping easier- might as well remove stealth, all leaps, all pulls, all roots/CC and defensive CDs in huttball since they all contribute to easier caps/preventing caps.

[Zepath]

The OP's suggestion is useless.

 

A) This game doesn't have PvP .... it has CC Wars. I didn't think ANYONE could design a worse PvP system than WoW, but BioWare did it. This isn't about fighting, its about who has their CC and CC-counters off CD. That person wins.

 

B) The other half of their problem is, they put level 49's in the same damned game as level 10s. That has never worked, it will never work, and anyone who buys into the "we buff you up" crap, needs to share what they are smoking. "We buff you up" is just an excuse to not have to do it right, and introduce level brackets. Pure LAZY.

 

C) Huttball is just a piss-poor design. You don't design a PvP arena based on obstacles, and then make two classes that can by-pass the obstacles at will. It simply shows BioWare's inexperience at designing MMOs, and it show the Mythic team was either AWOL in this design, ignored, or too scared to say anything.

 

D) The majority of us are just burned out on Huttball (hell we're burned out on the entire PvP design in general). They shoveled this crap arena down our throats sooo much pre-1.2 that most of us would never miss it if it were taken out of the game right this minute.

 

As for the OP's suggestion ... the problem with huttball is, two classes have a huge advantage because they can ignore the obstacles. The problem with the suggested fix is, two classes have a huge advantage because they can totally ignore the obstacles. All they have to do is pass the ball to a non-"leaper", leap to where they want to go, and have it passed back to them. If your team is lucky enough to have two (or more) "leapers", nothing is accomplished but the suggested fix.

 

We're just frustrated. We were frustrated before 1.2, we realize that 1.2 didn't fix a damned thing ... and now because of the population we're frustrated that we can't get the one thing most of us are still here for, to pop.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Zepath

[Orangerascal]

Like I keep saying, know your role in huttball.

 

If you're playing a scoundrel like a flag carrier, then you are doing something very wrong. Any disadvantage I have playing my scoundrel in huttball is more than made up for in aldeeran and novare coast.

 

Huttball is probably one of the freshest maps to come out in ages..

Edited May 13, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Phatkillz]

The OP's suggestion is useless.

 

A) This game doesn't have PvP .... it has CC Wars. I didn't think ANYONE could design a worse PvP system than WoW, but BioWare did it. This isn't about fighting, its about who has their CC and CC-counters off CD. That person wins.

 

B) The other half of their problem is, they put level 49's in the same damned game as level 10s. That has never worked, it will never work, and anyone who buys into the "we buff you up" crap, needs to share what they are smoking. "We buff you up" is just an excuse to not have to do it right, and introduce level brackets. Pure LAZY.

 

C) Huttball is just a piss-poor design. You don't design a PvP arena based on obstacles, and then make two classes that can by-pass the obstacles at will. It simply shows BioWare's inexperience at designing MMOs, and it show the Mythic team was either AWOL in this design, ignored, or too scared to say anything.

 

D) The majority of us are just burned out on Huttball (hell we're burned out on the entire PvP design in general). They shoveled this crap arena down our throats sooo much pre-1.2 that most of us would never miss it if it were taken out of the game right this minute.

 

As for the OP's suggestion ... the problem with huttball is, two classes have a huge advantage because they can ignore the obstacles. The problem with the suggested fix is, two classes have a huge advantage because they can totally ignore the obstacles. All they have to do is pass the ball to a non-"leaper", leap to where they want to go, and have it passed back to them. If your team is lucky enough to have two (or more) "leapers", nothing is accomplished but the suggested fix.

 

We're just frustrated. We were frustrated before 1.2, we realize that 1.2 didn't fix a damned thing ... and now because of the population we're frustrated that we can't get the one thing most of us are still here for, to pop.

Nicely stated I agree totally!

I'll see you in GW2 which by the way has several ex Mythic/DAOC developers working on their pvp system.

[eventidephoenix]

people are more concerned about fairness than roles...

 

Moments of anguish:

-when you helplessly watch a shadow go into invulnerability move and force speeder through the next fire that just started, just as you slammed your stun

 

-successfully knocking someone off only to have that someone leap back on again / get rescued up

 

 

 

And these things do tick people off. There are ways to stop them, but not always can be organized successfully enough or quickly enough. Give u an example of a game I played: 2 shadow tanks were relaying the ball between mid and line, one stealth was behind line to receive it. Our team had 3 gunslingers and a bunch of healers (non sage so no rescues)... go figure how we're supposed to work that out. The rest of their team was controlling mid, and try as we may for the **** of us we cannot get away with scoring, let alone stop them.

[eventidephoenix]

The OP's suggestion is useless.

 

A) This game doesn't have PvP .... it has CC Wars. I didn't think ANYONE could design a worse PvP system than WoW, but BioWare did it. This isn't about fighting, its about who has their CC and CC-counters off CD. That person wins.

 

B) The other half of their problem is, they put level 49's in the same damned game as level 10s. That has never worked, it will never work, and anyone who buys into the "we buff you up" crap, needs to share what they are smoking. "We buff you up" is just an excuse to not have to do it right, and introduce level brackets. Pure LAZY.

 

C) Huttball is just a piss-poor design. You don't design a PvP arena based on obstacles, and then make two classes that can by-pass the obstacles at will. It simply shows BioWare's inexperience at designing MMOs, and it show the Mythic team was either AWOL in this design, ignored, or too scared to say anything.

 

D) The majority of us are just burned out on Huttball (hell we're burned out on the entire PvP design in general). They shoveled this crap arena down our throats sooo much pre-1.2 that most of us would never miss it if it were taken out of the game right this minute.

 

As for the OP's suggestion ... the problem with huttball is, two classes have a huge advantage because they can ignore the obstacles. The problem with the suggested fix is, two classes have a huge advantage because they can totally ignore the obstacles. All they have to do is pass the ball to a non-"leaper", leap to where they want to go, and have it passed back to them. If your team is lucky enough to have two (or more) "leapers", nothing is accomplished but the suggested fix.

 

We're just frustrated. We were frustrated before 1.2, we realize that 1.2 didn't fix a damned thing ... and now because of the population we're frustrated that we can't get the one thing most of us are still here for, to pop.

 

Fully agreed...

[Gidoru]

As the person who asked the question, i too found his response to be quite ridiculous. Primarily for the reason that he seemed to be suggesting that FULL teams of JK/Sages arent 'unbalanced' in Huttball but you hardly need a full team of either class, just 2 good players with good coordination to cross the entire map in a matter of seconds.

 

As i melee class i find it pretty lame trying to chase a Guardian that is just flying across the map, meanwhile i have little chance of catching him, especially when his waiting sage just knocks me off when i try.

 

Huttball can be fun, but when you're playing against a decent sage/guardian combo and you dont have one on your team, it quickly becomes pretty lame.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Gidoru

[pbxsparx]

just more proof that GA has no f--king clue what he is doing. he clearly doesnt play the game because he would know about that balance problem. more citing of imaginary metrics is also annoying.

 

i have a sinking feeling that ranked pvp is going to be a joke.

 

Hopefully Huttball isn't a ranked WZ map.