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PvP Tankassassins: Some neat data AKA: Thrash sucks


Xancath

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So there has been some discussion amongst myself, some people on sithwarrior.com and a few fellow sins as to some particularities about rotation as a darkness assassin. Here is some data:

 

tl;dr

1. You should spec this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bIrozrskdsZoZf0cz.1

2. Your rotation should include: maul, saber strike, force lightning, shock, wither, and NO THRASH

3. Laugh at assassins who thrash

 

Stats

Health 18108

Willpower 1638

Power 396

Crit 29.1%

Surge 79.35%

Accuracy 92.83%

Mark of power buff, wp rakata stim

No recklessness, adrenal, overcharge or relic usage

6 pieces of WH gear

 

Some notes...

1. Training dummy is unaffected by expertise

2. All fights are 10min in duration

3. Note in addition to increased dps, the burst capability of a maul-including rotation

 

Spec / Rotation 1: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bIrozrskdsZZf0cM.1

Typical pvp rotation: Assassinate > FL(3 stack HD) > shock(energize only) > wither > thrash > saber strike

Log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/d22ba106-0b76-4274-8e48-d7bea7ad593f/overview#d=0,f=1,t=2,b=1

DPS: 993

HPS: 216.8

 

Spec / Rotation 2: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bIrozrskdsZZf0cM.1

Typical pvp rotation: Assassinate > FL(3 stack HD) > shock > wither > saber strike

Log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/e1b97dcf-465e-4e67-921a-93d3dacff330/overview#d=0,f=1,t=2,b=1

DPS: 982.6

HPS: 260.4

 

Spec / Rotation 3: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bIrozrskdsZoZf0cz.1

Typical pvp rotation: Assassinate > Maul (duplicity proc less than 4 sec remaining) > FL(3 stack HD) > Maul (duplicity proc) > shock > wither > saber strike

Log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/1c2eb916-f275-4dad-ac54-12ed8b7bb6c0/overview#d=0,f=1,t=2,b=1

DPS: 1036.8

HPS: 245.1

 

Spec 1 VS 2

10.4 DPS vs 43.6 HPS

Spec 1 VS 3

Spec 3 has 43.8 more DPS and 28.3 HPS

Spec 2 VS 3

15.3 HPS vs 54.6 DPS

 

Conclusion? The rotation/spec that includes maul and completely excludes thrash has the highest dps, and still significantly more hps than the thrash/no maul build. The no maul/no thrash build has the highest hps but has slightly less dps than the thrash/no maul build. The very typically used darkness assassin pvp spec that includes thrash in it's rotation is the most inferior of the three specs.

Edited by Xancath
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I know ive butted heads about this before. I do appreciate the info you have here. I would conclude that based on these numbers that the 3rd spec is the best of the 3 specs in terms of rawr DPS. I would also say with the Maul proc, it has the best potential for burst.

 

I would argue this about #1 vs #2. #1 spec offers burst and #2 simply does not. The numbers are close, but the numbers are based on a 10min fight. Situationally #1 would kill somebody before #2 based on burst. 10 dps doesnt change much between thrash vs thrashless, with the exception that an energized shock can put more pressure on the target or the healers.

 

Other then that, I will have to spec 31/1/9 and hopefully see targets die quicker.

 

PS, Might want to make this statement a little more clear-

"Typical pvp rotation: Assassinate > FL(3 stack HD) > shock(energize only) > wither > thrash > saber strike"

Reading this makes me think the only shock that is used is an energized shock. Maybe add in the regular shock in the priority rotation.

Edited by Skorpeo
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Well not all Sins / Shadows running around as darkness/ KC is spec for 31 points in the Dark/KC tree so I wouldn't laugh at that Sin/Shadow so quickly using Thrash/Double Strike, because they could be hitting you for 1.5k plus each hit of it.
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Well not all Sins / Shadows running around as darkness/ KC is spec for 31 points in the Dark/KC tree so I wouldn't laugh at that Sin/Shadow so quickly using Thrash/Double Strike, because they could be hitting you for 1.5k plus each hit of it.

 

Your right, I laugh at them when I see their double blade twirl like a baton

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Maybe I'm reading this wrong, could use some help. Isnt Thrash the primary way for us to proc Energize for Shock? The only 2 other moves that can do this is Assassinate and Lacerate. Lacerate seems mostly useless, so that leaves us with Assassinate, which you can only do after lowering HP to <30%. Seems like we're leaving a lot of damage on the table by not taking advantage of Thrash procced Energize. I get why you're using maul, and that seems a decent burst trade-off. Maybe I'm just misreading this.
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I've revised your spec, and made some improvements to it.

 

This should help you a little more, if thrash is actually useless as a burst potential. Personally i don't believe it is, but if you're set in stone on your decision i just wanna help out.

 

here you go

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bIro0rskrsZbZf0c.1

 

 

If you would like to try my spec in your dps rotations please feel free to do so.

 

I've added additional damage for thrash, just so the dps goes up in rotation, might change a few things on your calculations.

 

here is mine

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rfrozrskbsZZf0cM.1

Edited by Ch_Zero
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Both the 31/0/10 and your build look very viable. I have to agree that using Thrash is extremely beneficial in a Darkness based DPS rotation. The melee damage is not what I'm concerned about. I've been lucky enough at times to land an Energize proc after every single thrash. You combine that, with Recklessness and Expertise or Power adrenals and relics, and you're probably going to wreck shop on people. I'm going to give a few of these builds a try over the weekend in some WZs and see what I get out of them.
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To OP:

Are you recommending the no-Thrash spec/rotation for PvP or PvE? No fights last 10min in PvP so I honestly don't believe doing a 10min dps log is beneficial for the experiment. Also with only a 10% chance to proc Duplicity, it is hardly reliable enough to use in PvP with the fights being so dynamic.

 

If for PvE unless you're tanking you shouldn't be using a Darkness-heavy build to be worrying about Thrash vs Maul. If you're tanking you're not going to be able to Maul. While the theoretical numbers might favor throwing Thrash out of the rotation, I don't think it will be beneficial in real encounters.

 

One thing I'd like to see tested though, is if you still use Thrash in the rotation but prioritize Wither and Shock (use them on CDs rather than only use Shock when Energized) over Energized Shock. Basically I'd like to see a comparison between using Shock on cd vs using it only when Energized.

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I think the issue is a matter of becoming force starved.

 

I will agree you need to use one or the other.

 

using both Maul and thrash is not the smartest decision.

 

I linked both specs in order for you to choose maul or thrash.

 

If you believe thrash is not as effective use the maul build i linked.

 

If you are into thrash and have energize with the additional damage. Don't put maul on your bar.

 

It Becomes difficult to utilize both for maximum damage efficiency. so choose one or the other and spec around your choice.

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Just did about 5 fights with the maul spec. I was energy capped a lot while waiting for CDs aswell as exploit weakness buff. I seemed to use saber stike a lot more then the thrash for energize spec. Overall damage was about the same. Saw a lot of familiar enemies during the night and they died just as fast as before. With the limited play I just experienced, the maul spec provided eqaulivent numbers. First pass is to say play the spec you feel more comfortable with
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To OP:

Are you recommending the no-Thrash spec/rotation for PvP or PvE? No fights last 10min in PvP so I honestly don't believe doing a 10min dps log is beneficial for the experim...

 

The only purpose of 10 minute iterations is to have a large enough sample size. If you record data on 1 or 2 minute basis' you are more likely to get good or bad luck on any given ability (let's say that every shock HAPPENS to crit with build 2, this is significantly more likely with a sample size of 1 minute than 10).

 

Also with only a 10% chance to proc Duplicity, it is hardly reliable enough to use in PvP with the fights being so dynamic...

 

First of all, with a 10% proc chance you are able to proc it when it's off ICD 80% of the time. It doesn't just proc on every one of your direct damage attacks, it has 4 separate chances to proc for every tick of force lightning. Secondly, how does the "dynamic" situation of pvp scenario have anything to do with the proc chance and thus discredit it's value in a pvp build? Please elaborate.

Well not all Sins / Shadows running around as darkness/ KC is spec for 31 points in the Dark/KC tree so I wouldn't laugh at that Sin/Shadow so quickly us

This spec is entirely directed at pvp tank sins

 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, could use some help. Isnt Thrash the primary way for us to proc Energize for Shock? The only 2 other moves that can do this is Assassinate and...

Yes thrash is the primary way to proc Energize, what I'm trying to demonstrate is that in spite of this a thrash-less build is STILL more dps in a pvp setting.

 

Well if thrash is useless then i laugh at your spec.

 

You must never proc energize then. remove it from your tree.

1. You still proc energize from assassinate

2. Even in a thrash-less build you still use it to set up energized shock + fl burst ONLY if you are popping adrenal, relic, and recklessness.

Both the 31/0/10 and your build look very viable. I have to agree that using Thrash is extremely beneficial in a Darkness based DPS rotation. The melee damage is not what I'm concerned about. I've been lucky enough at times to land an Energize proc after every single thrash. You combine that, with Recklessness and Expertise or Power adrenals and relics, and you're probably going to wreck shop on people. I'm going to give a few of these builds a try over the weekend in some WZs and see what I get out of them.

Again, there's no reason you can't do this when setting up recklessness burst on a healer. But using it outside of this situation is a dps loss.

 

Just did about 5 fights with the maul spec. I was energy capped a lot while waiting for CDs aswell as exploit weakness buff. I seemed to use saber stike a lot more then the thrash for energize spec. Overall damage was about the same. Saw a lot of familiar enemies during the night and they died just as fast as before. With the limited play I just experienced, the maul spec provided eqaulivent numbers. First pass is to say play the spec you feel more comfortable with

You should never be capped out on energy with any of the three specs, you are doing something wrong.

 

Your "feeling" in one warzone is not quantifiable and can't be regarded as an indication of anything. Providing numbers from a combat parser would be a start.

Edited by Xancath
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Hmm, would like to see results of this in actual WZ environment and against moving players and just not static dummies. I see the benefit on the paper, but liked to see numbers of fights in WZs against variety of specs (defense staking tanks etc).

 

Also, making a 10 minutes non-stop test may lead to biases, because in actual WZ you have several fights lasting 10 secs to a minute if you while with breaks in between. Also would like to see the tests with recklesness up.

Edited by Okema
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Hmm, would like to see results of this in actual WZ environment and against moving players and just not static dummies. I see the benefit on the paper, but liked to see numbers of fights in WZs against variety of specs (defense staking tanks etc).

 

Also, making a 10 minutes non-stop test may lead to biases, because in actual WZ you have several fights lasting 10 secs to a minute if you while with breaks in between. Also would like to see the tests with recklesness up.

 

Unfortunately running logs in warzones is not a good idea. There are too many factors in play which will alter the relative performance of any particular spec for an iteration(one game may have many healers, another many tanks, in another you focus on objectives, etc). The only testing that can be done with any remote semblance to reality is on training dummies.

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Hmmm for pvp you should be looking at your burst windows and this is where energise shines.

 

Thrash will still have a place in your rotation if only to set up your burst.

 

I have already covered this

 

2. Even in a thrash-less build you still use it to set up energized shock + fl burst ONLY if you are popping adrenal, relic, and recklessness.
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Ok, shouldn't read stuff like this late at night. So you're saying thrash is still used to get energize if offensive CDs are ready? Then I absolutely agree with this thread.

 

Still liking to see the link to the discussion on sithwarrior.com because I'm curious.

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"Unfortunately running logs in warzones is not a good idea. There are too many factors in play which will alter the relative performance of any particular spec for an iteration(one game may have many healers, another many tanks, in another you focus on objectives, etc). The only testing that can be done with any remote semblance to reality is on training dummies."

 

"Your "feeling" in one warzone is not quantifiable and can't be regarded as an indication of anything. Providing numbers from a combat parser would be a start. "

 

You can not simply go by a parser to indicate which spec is better in a PVP environment. Your OP provides data to find the highest DPS, sure that helps but a 10min parse with the difference of 40 dps one way or another still doesnt provide a clear out look on whats a better "PVP" spec. The only way to judge is by actually PVPing and using your own judgement on what seemed to work for you better.

 

Seriously though, I just reread what I posted Friday night and I must have been drunk :eek:

Edited by Skorpeo
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Thrash pretty much has no use besides hitting another Assassin in Force Shorud for 31/0/10, especially in PvP. What people don't get is that every class in the game needs the 4m distance far more than you. Ranged DPS + healer need it to fire off their short range CC to lose you. Melee class need it because any hit they can exchange with your Thrash (or Saber Strike) has them come out way ahead, so it is your goal to avoid trading melee hits with anybody. By using Thrash, not only are you using a sub-par DPS but you're giving the enemy the 4m range that they normally have to work very hard to get.

 

I'd think Maul still requires having at least one point in Deception, and I'm not sure how practical it is to pull this off. Maul also suffers the same problem in that it forces you to give up your range if the enemy isn't incapaciated but at least it does win most melee hit trades assuming you have the proc up, while Thrash always lose a melee to melee tradeoff against any class.

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Unfortunately running logs in warzones is not a good idea. There are too many factors in play which will alter the relative performance of any particular spec for an iteration(one game may have many healers, another many tanks, in another you focus on objectives, etc). The only testing that can be done with any remote semblance to reality is on training dummies.

 

I definitely appreciate people taking the time to do these types of test, because it adds a lot to the forum discussions. With that said, your post above highlights an issue that I have with the "Maul is best" theory. While I won't argue that during the test, it out damaged the thrash rotation; however, getting position behind a training dummy is much easier than a live active PVPer.

 

There are numerous examples in the real world where testing in a controlled environment work great, but once those theories are implemented, you don't see the same results because of the other factors in play.

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I definitely appreciate people taking the time to do these types of test, because it adds a lot to the forum discussions. With that said, your post above highlights an issue that I have with the "Maul is best" theory. While I won't argue that during the test, it out damaged the thrash rotation; however, getting position behind a training dummy is much easier than a live active PVPer.

 

There are numerous examples in the real world where testing in a controlled environment work great, but once those theories are implemented, you don't see the same results because of the other factors in play.

 

Ever since Ive put a point into Duplicity and started using Maul more, Ive found its actually not that hard to get in position behind someone to hit the Maul. If you stun someone, you can get 2 mauls in right there. If they're attacking someone else, it shouldn't be a problem to get behind. For ranged classes, you can slow, and if you're fighting near a node, they often wont run that far anyway. A lot of players I find don't move around that much for it to be a big issue. And even if you can't, you've got a ton of other tools anyway.

 

Just saying, going for the mauls is for more viable than I used to think, it's not that hard to get into position quite often.

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