Sages overnerfed? Can't decide.

[Tathais]

Obviously you don't. You valor rank means nothing. There is a V100 sorc on my server who is one of the worst pvpers I have ever seen. You know why? Because, like you, he doesn't know how to kite.

 

Before this thread devolves into "You suck!" -- "Nuh-uh!!!" like so many other before it, allow me to reiterate something I posted in another thread. LiveandDieinLA, lets just assume for the moment that you are the pinnacle of Sorc/Sage excellence and because of this, you don't feel the nerfs are that bad and that the class is fine from your perspective.

 

Consider that your perspective isn't the only one, and that not everybody can be as good as you are. Classes in this came should be accessible and viable for the average player. After all, there can only be one first place but other people want to enjoy this game too. If a class has to be played with perfection in order to be able to hold its own against the merely average, it's a fair indication that there is indeed something wrong with it.

 

Finally, to comment on your video... I did watch the first fight as you suggested people do. I'm not saying you're good or bad, but from what I saw there you're quite lucky. I also use my escapes to the best of my ability but nobody ever leaves me alone like they did with you on more than one occasion. Whenever I knock back and duck behind LOS to get some heals, the DPS that are usually mobbing me simply follow and continue to beat me down. In your video, they left you alone and went around the other side.

 

Posting what is clearly an edited video (vs. uncut raw footage) of your most impressive PvP situations is not clear-cut evidence that a class is fine. There are any number of variables at play here. I am certainly glad you had some good games, and gladder still that you are a good enough player to make the class work for you, but please don't trivialize the well thought out and considered opposing views of those who still know how to play the class (maybe not as well as you do, but skilled none-the-less) but are having a much different experience than you are.

[S__T]

people just don't know how to play a sage. If you think you should be sitting their face tanking a melee while shooting pebbles at them of course you are going to die.

 

Sages have so many escape abilities its not even funny. The class is tailor made for the kiter. If you can't/ don't want to kite then I suggest you re-roll to a sniper.

 

 

little vid a sorc on my server made post 1.2. Watch the first fight sequence.

 

As one of the best Sorcs on my server I can point out a few problems with that first fight in question:

 

1.He went into a node 3v1. That they owned. This, under normal circumstances and against equally skilled (much less equally geared) is a waste of time in every practicality.

2.That sith juggernaught, if he knew any idea how to play would easily screw that sorc over very badly, the sorc was hiding behind the hut, at any point (especially when the powertech pulls him) he could have force-pushed him off that ledge, ruining that sorc's day, and putting him out of the picture for a good 15 seconds.

3.The third guy left the node at some point during him hiding, which made this fight a 2v1. A silly risk initially anyway.

4.The two vs one, if the powertech and juggernaught had both STAYED ON HIM, (right after the jugg gets shield-blinded, knock-backed into root into whirlwind) they could have shut him down and killed him. Hes lightning, a very immobile spec.

5.Hes clearly in battlemaster/war hero gear, they were both in recruit and a little battlemaster (check their hp pools)

6.He didn't do any kiting except in the beginning and against the jugg. The jugg played terribly, but that powertech was basically being stupid running away from the sorc over, and over, again. That isn't kiting so much as the powertech thought he was a pillar kiting healer.

7.On numerous occasions the jugg and powertech don't even use their attacks.

[chimex]

As a sorc (proud and true woot woot) I would have to say that we are not overnerfed.

 

That said, I am DPS spec, not healing, so i cannot comment on that portion of the sorc/sages ability.

 

What I can comment on tho, is that what i do see at times is when people play sorc/sages almost like a tank. People complain about how squishy the class is, but they use it like a tank!!!! I think we can all agree, it's not exactly playing upto the classes strong points now is it.

 

However, If you play your cards right, and you know a bit about the class of your oponent, you can do some serious damage. You wont win every fight by all means, but a well played sorc/sage can certainately give someone a run for their money.

 

Of course the flip side to the question is that are we undernerfed? Yet again, i would say no. We can get easily killed if we don't put our thinking caps on. With sorc/sages, it is not a class you can simply run in without a moments thought. It's a class where you need to be thinking at least 5 seconds ahead of the situation. (oddly enough, just like the force allows you to do haha - rubbish joke)

 

x

Edited May 11, 2012 by chimex

[G_Vega]

Obviously you dont play one.

 

actually, I do. I have one of everything. The right hybrid allows you to do some amazing things.

[HurricaneXXIV]

It's hard to balance burst with the dps they can do long term. Right now they can still top a damage meter.

[Stavroz]

Sages are fine

Here me out

We were not over nerfed the prob is with the scaling of gear and changes to expertise plus the dps buff to other classes is what left us behind in the pack.

Buffing us at this stage would only add to the problem of TTK and genral unbalance of the game in 1.2

The nerfs that we got would have been fine in a non agmented Warhero environment + expertise post 1.2

The TTK of some classes would be reigned in without these 2 factors and the sage would not go down like a sack of crap in wzs

[Laforet]

Sarcasm isn't really that civil. It just adds to the torrent of negativity that dominates these boards.

 

I think sages are a little defenseless right now. They are very squishy, and everybody targets them first because they know they can kill them. In terms of dps I believe they are where they should be, considering the utility they bring to the team.

 

this guy is spot on. sage dps and hps are fine. the problem is sage survivability.

 

even with crazy hybrids sage survivability is still terrible

[Ch_Zero]

With all the class changes i think they should have left sages the way they were.

[Cyyrr]

Stavros and LivenDie I agree with both of you. From a healer perspective:

 

The overall pvp changes to expertise is what made the biggest impact to sages. Heals hit for less in pvp now, which stinks, it sped up the pvp game and seems that's what Bioware wanted. The increase in dmg from our opponents brings us down faster. I roll with 1253 expertise and have to work like hell to get the numbers I did before pre 1.2. But I can still pull 600k in a voidstar, and get a win for my team but that's running like crazy with my teamates protecting me and getting lucky with placement of some aoe heals.

 

I think bioware has made these changes for the future...not today. When people have more expertise than is currently on gear.

 

I don't know Dps post 1.2 as well, but all the sage/sorc's I play against kite and dps around corners....I constantly have to look and see where the heck they are. Positioning and movement, kite until the person on ya get's bored.

 

Always save your force speed for when you get into trouble and you're gonna die... especially if you need gear. Expect to die till you get that expertise up. I still die a ton even with all that expertise, it's kinda expected.

[LancelotOC]

If they changed the baseline bubble to stun on explosion like the talented one now does for everyone the class would be fine for all.

 

The reason there is a discrepancy in sage/sorcs feeling about their class is that single ability and if they have it or if they don't.

 

The ones that do, stun anyone that gets on them and then can get away. The ones that don't mostly die.

 

They can do it where only self bubble is explosion stunable. Problem solved except for inevitable yelling at each other between Sages/Sorcs for bubbling them instead of letting them bubble themsleves.

 

As it stand as the ability costs 12 points you will not be able to do PVE that require the AE heal.

Edited May 11, 2012 by LancelotOC

[RaugMoss]

Before this thread devolves into "You suck!" -- "Nuh-uh!!!" like so many other before it, allow me to reiterate something I posted in another thread. LiveandDieinLA, lets just assume for the moment that you are the pinnacle of Sorc/Sage excellence and because of this, you don't feel the nerfs are that bad and that the class is fine from your perspective.

 

Consider that your perspective isn't the only one, and that not everybody can be as good as you are. Classes in this came should be accessible and viable for the average player. After all, there can only be one first place but other people want to enjoy this game too. If a class has to be played with perfection in order to be able to hold its own against the merely average, it's a fair indication that there is indeed something wrong with it.

 

Finally, to comment on your video... I did watch the first fight as you suggested people do. I'm not saying you're good or bad, but from what I saw there you're quite lucky. I also use my escapes to the best of my ability but nobody ever leaves me alone like they did with you on more than one occasion. Whenever I knock back and duck behind LOS to get some heals, the DPS that are usually mobbing me simply follow and continue to beat me down. In your video, they left you alone and went around the other side.

 

Posting what is clearly an edited video (vs. uncut raw footage) of your most impressive PvP situations is not clear-cut evidence that a class is fine. There are any number of variables at play here. I am certainly glad you had some good games, and gladder still that you are a good enough player to make the class work for you, but please don't trivialize the well thought out and considered opposing views of those who still know how to play the class (maybe not as well as you do, but skilled none-the-less) but are having a much different experience than you are.

 

You sir, are the pinnacle of forum posting excellence (not trolling).

 

The ones that say sorc is fine didn't face good enough players, and no, if you are known in your server as a good sorcerer, every class that can beat you with 30%+ hp remaining (70% or more if you lack 1 or 2 cds), will come after you and kill you, rendering you ineffective and that player being a +1 dps against your team.

 

I'm tired of posting the same things over and over again, but i think we may need 4% healing from dot crits maybe instead of 2%, or a 6sec cd 12 sec slow like the assassins, or internal damage from force lightning to be able to finish biased fights (vs vengeance/rage jug, tankassassins, annihilation marauders, power stacking rage build jug/mara) close (you'll still lose because only this change won't save you), or something else.

 

But we DEFINITELY need a buff, because not every1 has good surge/crit/power and some alacrity like I do to beat average players by still burning many cds, or good players with every cooldown possible in 1v1, which is better used in anti-cap, fire-stun huttball situations.

 

A good sorc vs average vengeance, sorc burns cds, wins with 40-70% hp (situational).

A good sorc vs average vengeance, sorc doesn't burn offensive cds, wins or loses (due to medpack existence to avoid 30% ranged execute, or that execute hitting noncrit - screw the developers who gave ppl a ranged execute anyway)

A good vengeance vs average sorc, sorc burns cds, vengeance burns cds, vengeance wins with over 70% hp always.

A good vengeance vs average sorc, sorc burns cds, vengeance doesn't burn cds, vengeance wins with over 40-50% hp always.

 

Clearly not a skill curve issue i think.

[Blotter]

Obviously you dont play one.

 

Obviously his signature said "50 Marauder, Sentinel..." so he's just another bad player who likes rolling FOTM and wants more advantage for his OP faceroll class.

[Dracosz]

The toolset for sages/sorcs is fine as is their damage. People need to stop tunnelvisioning into the hybrid spec and try out other things every now and then (A well-played madness sorc will shut down any melee except a madness sin if they play right).

[Chemic_al]

Just this alone should be proof that sages are overnerfed. The fact that everyone targets sages first because they are the 'easy kill' means that they need something to help them. I love playing my sage, and I hear everyone talking about great dps from sages. I'm sorry to tell you, but if you are saying that because of the numbers at the end of the pvp match, then you don't know what your talking about. In PvP, sages are crap in a 1v1 against any other class with equal gear. all the other classes just hit to hard. I am constantly getting smaked by 2k - 6k damage while i'm dealing a mear 500 to 800 with pebbles and 250 per tic with dots. our heals are always interupted, out shield only lasts one hit normally because everyone else hits so hard.

 

When you see the large numbers at the end of the warzone it's because that sage knows where he's good at, and that's area effects. We have three, one that we can spam, which makes keeping the enemy from caping or planting easy. It's because of those area effects hitting for 800 to 1500 per player in its radius is why you see such large numbers. It's not because we're a powerhouse doing monstrous hits to single targets like some other classes out there.

 

BW should raise the defenses of the sage so we are not the 'easy kill' anymore. If they do want to make us the easy kill then we should be the hardest hitters, not the ticklers of the *********** warzone. I have gone up against operatives that where healing themselves faster then I could damage them, throwing everything I had at him, then he comes around and takes me out in 4 seconds. sage is a joke right now, but it's the only class I like to play because I don't like the up close combat feel. in shooter games I would always play a sniper for the same reason, I like the distance.

 

Yeah I like playing sorc and problem is we have no answer for the current OP classes at the moment, tanksins, which even if you kite em have lower CD specced force speed and pull. Maras/Sents just keep snaring you and releaping, force charge being on much shorter cooldown than knockback and well pyrotechs/vanguard just melt you.

 

Worst of all, no proper burst dps, so that if we do manage to kite, nothing to make the attacker think twice before closing again.....

 

Overnerfed is right on the money.

[Aehgo]

Well Sages/Sorcs are meant to be a 'Glass cannon',dealing high damage but can be taken down easy.

Bioware nerfed the damage dealing ability of Sages AND nerfed their survivability.

And now they aren't even glass and they certainly aren't cannons.

They are melee fodder.

[fungihoujo]

Does anyone still play that POS class? LOL, rerolled marauder with 1.2- never looked back, so much better now that winning is just handed to me with every battle. Piece of advice- just delete your sorc, I've yet to meet one that can get my marauder to 70% health- they're just there to pad my numbers really.

[Laforet]

sage dps and hps are fine.

 

the problem with sage is their survivability.

 

sure there are good sages/sorcs kicking some serious *** but it takes a near flawless game to beat the other classes.

 

sage survivability is so lame that when the person whos playing the sage commits one tactical mistake its often game over. and no human being is immune to mistakes, even elite players make mistakes from time to time.

 

if we compare the sages with the other ACs in this game, we can see that the other 7 ACs are more forgiving, and thats the root of the OP vs. UP problem.

 

sages can beat marauders? YES. but they have to play flawlessly for it. if the sage commits a single tactical mistake against a good marauder its game over. on the other hand, the marauder class is more forgiving. you can screw up and keep burning CDs to stay on the fight.

 

same goes to PYRO PTs and other meleeish dps, with the exception of the OP/SCO stealthy, they are less forgiving too, but its a compensation for their bursty opening and adrenal jumping that, if done correctly, gives them a superb advantage.

 

this game would be the best pvp ever if:

- burst damage for melee was toned down A BIT (JUST A BIT)

- resolve be scaled to build up A BIT faster (just a small tweak)

- sages bubble scaled slighty with willpower (i mean slighty)

- relics adrenals slighty toned down

- op/sco heals toned down slighty to compensate for their mobility and to be put in line with other healers

Edited May 12, 2012 by Laforet

[Vales]

I don't think we were overnerfed, but I would really like TWave to be affected by presence of mind again

 

No.

Rather buff Turbulence.

[Zataos]

I would say my Madness speced Sorc is my strongest toon, and likely the easiest to play, or at least as easy to play as a Merc. The only time I run into trouble is when a DPS class catches me with little to no force left. As far as healing Sorcs, the only difference now is that they can't stand in one spot while 3 dps are pounding on them and chain heal.

[Lugh]

people just don't know how to play a sage. If you think you should be sitting their face tanking a melee while shooting pebbles at them of course you are going to die.

 

Sages have so many escape abilities its not even funny. The class is tailor made for the kiter. If you can't/ don't want to kite then I suggest you re-roll to a sniper.

 

 

little vid a sorc on my server made post 1.2. Watch the first fight sequence.

 

Ill say it again. Ive been kiting people since UO. I know how to do it. It's just not possible in thus game against anyone that's even average at their class.

 

All of your gap makers are hard countered by abilities on cool downs = < that escape. Posting vids fighting BADs doesn't prove it's easy in any way. Thanks for contributing.

[Sccorpion]

Please keep this thread civil

 

To my point, there are days I can't decide. In terms of kills... some days I think the answer is yes. I'm not sure we are nearly as hard-hitting as we should be considering how squishy we are against almost everyone.

 

Other days, in terms of how many wins my team has been able to manage because I was present at critical moments, I think we are doing just fine with our versatility as a utility member of the team.

 

What have been your experiences? These days I'm thinking the answer completely depepds on how you are framing success. Team wins VS personal victories against other players resulting in their deaths.

 

OMG! Are you really complaining about the sage being nerfed!

Edited May 13, 2012 by Meluna
rude

[Ahhmyface]

Ill say it again. Ive been kiting people since UO. I know how to do it. It's just not possible in thus game against anyone that's even average at their class.

 

All of your gap makers are hard countered by abilities on cool downs = < that escape. Posting vids fighting BADs doesn't prove it's easy in any way. Thanks for contributing.

 

It is possible. I could send you videos of a 2v2 tournament where sorcs kite their asses off against the best players on the server.

[crustie]

It is possible. I could send you videos of a 2v2 tournament where sorcs kite their asses off against the best players on the server.

 

totally right.. creeping terror/sever force along with force slow makes sorc/sage kiting superstars. if you are not using those 2 abilities then you deserve to die. they ignore resolve and make kiting melee easily done against your average player. the good ones are still a pain, but still kitable. now all this kitability goes out the window when it's 2v1 or more, but most classes survivability goes out the window in those situations as well.

Edited May 12, 2012 by crustie

[TalkingDinosaur]

Civil... and humorous.. I give it an 8.5. Yes.. we look silly... but those friggin' pebbles STING, right?!

From pebbles to ripping astromech droids out of the ground and flinging them at your face.

Edited May 13, 2012 by TalkingDinosaur

[LancelotOC]

totally right.. creeping terror/sever force along with force slow makes sorc/sage kiting superstars. if you are not using those 2 abilities then you deserve to die. they ignore resolve and make kiting melee easily done against your average player. the good ones are still a pain, but still kitable. now all this kitability goes out the window when it's 2v1 or more, but most classes survivability goes out the window in those situations as well.

 

Crustie Sever Force is 31 points in Balance/Madness so you should clarify that you talking about DPS classes being able to kite. I guess this thread is about DPS specced sorcs so maybe I'm wrong.

 

The summary would be that a Madness/Balance Sorc/Sage, because of the extra CC they have on their 31 point top ability can kite real well. If you are not a DOT sorc/sage but a lighting/pebble sorc/sage you can kite by using the extra CC on the bubble by speccing for Backlash/Kinetic Collapse. If you are 31 point healing Sorc/Sage you can't really kite reliably because to many classe have hard coded gap closers. What you can do is become a hybrid healer by speccing only to 21 in heals and following the Lightning/Pebble sorc/sage style by pushing up to Backlash/Kinetic Collapse as well with your remaining points.

 

The only issue is for healer specs as without the 31 point AE heal you can not complete much of the PVE content. If you want to be viable in PVE and keep the AE heal then you must play with a tank guarding you in PVP. You still can't stand still though as people will attack you as a means to kill the tank. You have to still block LOS and get out of melee range as you can to be successful.