Powertechs aren't OP

[exphryl]

 

Yeeaaaaah. Seems balanced.

 

That's an old video of mine. At least keep things current =/

 

Also, the poster listing abilities just copied from a site to show what abilities were and were not elemental. Obviously in game stats will be different.

Edited May 13, 2012 by exphryl

[TheGreatFrosty]

Though I appreciate the humour of the post, it's a shame that the title will clearly misguide so many people.

 

Let's hope the developers comprehend the severity of the issue, as powertechs are simply one of the most broken things in PVP post 1.3.

[jackofrost]

As a pyrotech merc, I wish my class was at least half as powerful as Jager's....

 

/cry

[CoNfuSioN_]

 

Yeeaaaaah. Seems balanced.

 

Thanks for reinforcing my beliefs that no matter how much time, effort, or thought I put into a post, the general level of stupidity on these forums makes the whole thing as useful as pounding one's head against their computer desk.

 

I'd waste less time and contribute just as much to these special needs marathons if i just posted sounds, so without further ado-

 

aaargg blah bing zippitdy diannnggg whizzz woooppp

[Metalmac]

Though I appreciate the humour of the post, it's a shame that the title will clearly misguide so many people.

 

Let's hope the developers comprehend the severity of the issue, as powertechs are simply one of the most broken things in PVP post 1.3.

 

I am a little confused about a class that is not supposed to be a glass cannon is the cannon and my Sage that is supposed to be a glass cannon does less damage most of the time?

 

How is it that a class that is in Heavy armor and immune to damage is given that much burst?

Yet a class that has very low survival and light armor and a very weak shield has less burst so really is this backwards?

Edited May 14, 2012 by Metalmac

[exphryl]

I am a little confused about a class that is not supposed to be a glass cannon is the cannon and my Sage that is supposed to be a glass cannon does less damage most of the time?

 

How is it that a class that is in Heavy armor and immune to damage is given that much burst?

Yet a class that has very low survival and light armor and a very weak shield has less burst so really is this backwards?

 

A sage has descent survival.

 

A sage that plays as a turret does not.

[Synxos]

A sage has descent survival.

 

A sage that plays as a turret does not.

What you're saying is a sage that doesn't get attacked has decent survival...

[Metalmac]

A sage has descent survival.

 

A sage that plays as a turret does not.

 

Well that is odd as most of my damage comes from casting and that means standing still.

So how much damage could I really do running around casting small damage spells all the time?

 

I would asume you do not have a Sage as only someone that never played one would say this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoL6ZZLwQh0&list=UUULwPKqrRFCtNv5_xMuOqQw&index=2&feature=plcp

 

Look at my Videos on damage and see that Power Tech's are almost always top damage and kills, explain that?

Edited May 14, 2012 by Metalmac

[Metalmac]

What you're saying is a sage that doesn't get attacked has decent survival...

 

Yea that would be his point, but odd that any other class would meet that factor also.

[exphryl]

Well that is odd as most of my damage comes from casting and that means standing still.

So how much damage could I really do running around casting small damage spells all the time?

 

I

 

Funny, I guess the concept of dot kiting escape you....

[Jarfunkz]

I am a little confused about a class that is not supposed to be a glass cannon is the cannon and my Sage that is supposed to be a glass cannon does less damage most of the time?

 

How is it that a class that is in Heavy armor and immune to damage is given that much burst?

Yet a class that has very low survival and light armor and a very weak shield has less burst so really is this backwards?

 

How much defense does a pyrotech have?

[Jarfunkz]

Well that is odd as most of my damage comes from casting and that means standing still.

So how much damage could I really do running around casting small damage spells all the time?

 

I would asume you do not have a Sage as only someone that never played one would say this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoL6ZZLwQh0&list=UUULwPKqrRFCtNv5_xMuOqQw&index=2&feature=plcp

 

Look at my Videos on damage and see that Power Tech's are almost always top damage and kills, explain that?

 

That is fantasy pvp stuff there bro, how many killin blows do they have? That is the true measurement of dps effectiveness.

[exphryl]

WH Geared Medium Armor: 28.34% Damage Reduction / 5% Defense Chance

WH Geared Heavy Armor: 31.32% Damage Reduction / 7% Defense Chance

 

Note: I used a Mara/PT for the values so obviously if you are a tank or whatnot the heavy armor will skew a bit.

 

....

 

Why do people still throw out the "heavy armor" argument? Really People?

Edited May 14, 2012 by exphryl

[SajPl]

WH Geared Medium Armor: 28.34% Damage Reduction / 5% Defense Chance

WH Geared Heavy Armor: 31.32% Damage Reduction / 7% Defense Chance

 

Note: I used a Mara/PT for the values so obviously if you are a tank or whatnot the heavy armor will skew a bit.

 

....

 

Why do people still throw out the "heavy armor" argument? Really People?

 

Because most people are terribads that don't understand that heavy armor is nothing without the tanking cell. Give me self healing and 4 defensive cooldowns and ill take medium armor and be glad about having it.

[Jundi]

I've never seen a sniper do 2/3 the damage of that powertech I was QQIng about. I think a good old fashioned nerf is in order.

 

Roll a PT like I did and you'll understand they don't need a nerf. My sorc is still a better class than the pyro. Can heal, dps, bubble, force speed, etc.

[Jundi]

I've never seen a sniper do 2/3 the damage of that powertech I was QQIng about. I think a good old fashioned nerf is in order.

 

Roll a PT like I did and you'll understand they don't need a nerf. My sorc is still a better class than the pyro. Can heal, dps, bubble, force speed, etc.

[xBloodcrazed]

I feel the op is pointing out a very real situation in the high end meta game. I feel that at this point the game has evolved where people are comfortable with their rotations in different situations. On top of that high end pvpers are often using very refined specs designed to boost burst dmg. Its important to remember that at the high end players are often choosing biochem, by using a combination of adrenal+expertise+relic any class can chain multiple crits while under this effect and destroy a weary opponent.

 

The only reason you notice it more often against an Assault vanguard is the fact a player can combine the above buffs available to all with the 2 min AC cooldown Battle Focus which is a 25% crit chance boost for 12 seconds people who are used to being focused during the matches will notice the effect of someone chain criting against you

 

The second factor which contributes to people unfairly calling for nerfs to the entire class for no other reason then the burst timings of the rotation which has a front end delay the first 3 GCD's a vanguard uses (incendiary round, assault plastique, hammer shot which provides some ammo regen plus a chance to proc plasma/slow. This is also when my target really keys into the fact hes under attack.

 

At this point if an Assault vanguard was attacking you would notice 2 dots proc, a big hit from hib, the explosion from the grenade he threw earlier. you try to run but you noticed him too late the vanguard has entered the 10m sweet zone in all the case studies the next 3 GCD's are as followed, Ion pulse, hib, stockstrike keep in mind these can be done in almost any order. which also ends the opening burst dmg rotations which is in question. Its also important to argue that this potent attack is rarely enought to finish off my target just like any other AC this initial burst is not sustainable. moving forward the internal 6 sec CD timer starts to work for hib which means i will be able to AT BEST fire a hib in 6 seconds or more with zero chance of firing 2 hib almost back to back like in the opener. the second reason the initial burst is unsustainable is the 15 second cooldown + 3-4 sec delay of Assault Plastique which is a huge part of the initial 4 GCD burst. the combination of the long cooldown+delay of AP and the 6 sec internal proc cooldown for hib represent a huge drop in burst dmg potential since you wont be able to pair up another AP+HiB burst (only one, not two like the opener} for approx 11-15 seconds of combat time. this huge pause will allow an opponent to counter attack/heal/vanish.

 

in Conclusion I feel strongly that the two factors of high end players combining adrenal+relic+battle focus in a way which is unique to the AC and probably allows for more LOL moments on a 2 min CD then most others. The second factor which is also important relating to perspective and sample sizes. If you consider all the vanguard burst that happens within 4 GCD's its hard to find an equal that being said. when compared with a true 7 GCD sample the damage falls much more in line with the other advanced classes.

 

For us Assault Vanguards out there we can only hope that Bioware is smart enought not to nerf the class based on tiny sample sizes of high end players none of this will fix the underlying situation which is any high end pvper is able to stack relic+adrenals and chain big hits when paired with the OCD's of their AC.

 

Really as a community we should be questioning bioware and asking them when they do in house testing and data collecting for balancing at the high end are they accounting for very high percentage of biochems that exist? do these in house tests also include data from the same high percentage player base that are biochem that are also using the +power relic instead of any other option? Finally in the end its important to take a step back and look at the big picture before nerfing an individual AC.

 

***edited***

 

On a side the second biggest concern ive seen people raising with Assault Vanguards is the total damage done per warzone many players feel that this can be out of line at times, However I would argue that if we consider only single target dps the Vanguard falls very much in line with others. The key here is understanding that these numbers are bolsters mostly by the Vanguards well placed burst aoe attacks (sticky+mortar volley+ pulse cannon) however the overall effectiveness will depend on the players skill and timing regardless this potent aoe combo alone could add significantly over the course of an entire game. Now you might be thinking " so what? lots of classes have aoe" and you might think the Vanguards trick set ends here. However it doesnt the overall dmg numbers are skewed by two strong dots which can be spammed on passers by tab targeted ammo dump cooldowned onto multiple foes at once or in those situations where death is assured spamming and refreshing dots before dying. I firmly believe that whenever a Assault Vanguards is skewed out of line with others you can be assured that these are the tactics some use to bolster their overall dmg, Vanguards just simply are not using only single target dps to achieve the numbers shown in screen shots

 

I guess when a player gets hit by an cooldown augmented crit infused rotation, blows up. Then after the match sees the Bolstered damage the Vanguard did using his other tools It becomes understandable why someone would think a Vanguard must be doing the miracle burst none stop to everyone.

Edited May 14, 2012 by xBloodcrazed

[TheEvilEeyore]

I don't think the ability to burn me down in about 5 seconds is balanced, regardless of their own defenses or lack thereof. The fact of the matter is that powertechs do more burst damage than any other class in the game, and they also have some really nice utility to back it up (slows, pulls, etc.).

 

hahahahahah right.. best burst in game.. please.. here is me getting hit by a sentinal

 

[21:44:30.250] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] [Damage ] (2546* energy )

[21:44:30.251] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] Damage ] (387* energy )

[21:44:30.546] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] [Damage ] (2541* energy)

[21:44:30.546] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] [Damage ] (0 -parry ) (5474) Ravage opening hit.

[21:44:30.846] [@Me] [@Sent] [sever Force] [RemoveEffect : Immobilized (Force) ]

[21:44:31.846] [@Me] [@sent] [sever Force (Force)] [Damage ] (252 internal )

[21:44:32.737] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage ] [Damage ] (5074* energy)

[21:44:32.738] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage ] [Damage] (652 energy ) (5726) Second hit, i finally get out of range

 

11k dmg in 2.3 seconds

[Ich_Bin]

hahahahahah right.. best burst in game.. please.. here is me getting hit by a sentinal

 

[21:44:30.250] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] [Damage ] (2546* energy )

[21:44:30.251] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] Damage ] (387* energy )

[21:44:30.546] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] [Damage ] (2541* energy)

[21:44:30.546] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage] [Damage ] (0 -parry ) (5474) Ravage opening hit.

[21:44:30.846] [@Me] [@Sent] [sever Force] [RemoveEffect : Immobilized (Force) ]

[21:44:31.846] [@Me] [@sent] [sever Force (Force)] [Damage ] (252 internal )

[21:44:32.737] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage ] [Damage ] (5074* energy)

[21:44:32.738] [@Sent] [@me] [Ravage ] [Damage] (652 energy ) (5726) Second hit, i finally get out of range

 

11k dmg in 2.3 seconds

 

The Hulk compares himself to Superman in order to show everyone that he is not OP when fighting an average human

 

Btw: Watch Exphryl's PT video. I think somewhere in there he does >18k damage in ~3 seconds.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[SaulSerpine]

I feel the op is pointing out a very real situation in the high end meta game. I feel that at this point the game has evolved where people are comfortable with their rotations in different situations. On top of that high end pvpers are often using very refined specs designed to boost burst dmg. Its important to remember that at the high end players are often choosing biochem, by using a combination of adrenal+expertise+relic any class can chain multiple crits while under this effect and destroy a weary opponent.

 

The only reason you notice it more often against an Assault vanguard is the fact a player can combine the above buffs available to all with the 2 min AC cooldown Battle Focus which is a 25% crit chance boost for 12 seconds people who are used to being focused during the matches will notice the effect of someone chain criting against you

 

The second factor which contributes to people unfairly calling for nerfs to the entire class for no other reason then the burst timings of the rotation which has a front end delay the first 3 GCD's a vanguard uses (incendiary round, assault plastique, hammer shot which provides some ammo regen plus a chance to proc plasma/slow. This is also when my target really keys into the fact hes under attack.

 

At this point if an Assault vanguard was attacking you would notice 2 dots proc, a big hit from hib, the explosion from the grenade he threw earlier. you try to run but you noticed him too late the vanguard has entered the 10m sweet zone in all the case studies the next 3 GCD's are as followed, Ion pulse, hib, stockstrike keep in mind these can be done in almost any order. which also ends the opening burst dmg rotations which is in question. Its also important to argue that this potent attack is rarely enought to finish off my target just like any other AC this initial burst is not sustainable. moving forward the internal 6 sec CD timer starts to work for hib which means i will be able to AT BEST fire a hib in 6 seconds or more with zero chance of firing 2 hib almost back to back like in the opener. the second reason the initial burst is unsustainable is the 15 second cooldown + 3-4 sec delay of Assault Plastique which is a huge part of the initial 4 GCD burst. the combination of the long cooldown+delay of AP and the 6 sec internal proc cooldown for hib represent a huge drop in burst dmg potential since you wont be able to pair up another AP+HiB burst (only one, not two like the opener} for approx 11-15 seconds of combat time. this huge pause will allow an opponent to counter attack/heal/vanish.

 

in Conclusion I feel strongly that the two factors of high end players combining adrenal+relic+battle focus in a way which is unique to the AC and probably allows for more LOL moments on a 2 min CD then most others. The second factor which is also important relating to perspective and sample sizes. If you consider all the vanguard burst that happens within 4 GCD's its hard to find an equal that being said. when compared with a true 7 GCD sample the damage falls much more in line with the other advanced classes.

 

For us Assault Vanguards out there we can only hope that Bioware is smart enought not to nerf the class based on tiny sample sizes of high end players none of this will fix the underlying situation which is any high end pvper is able to stack relic+adrenals and chain big hits when paired with the OCD's of their AC.

 

Really as a community we should be questioning bioware and asking them when they do in house testing and data collecting for balancing at the high end are they accounting for very high percentage of biochems that exist? do these in house tests also include data from the same high percentage player base that are biochem that are also using the +power relic instead of any other option? Finally in the end its important to take a step back and look at the big picture before nerfing an individual AC.

 

***edited***

 

On a side the second biggest concern ive seen people raising with Assault Vanguards is the total damage done per warzone many players feel that this can be out of line at times, However I would argue that if we consider only single target dps the Vanguard falls very much in line with others. The key here is understanding that these numbers are bolsters mostly by the Vanguards well placed burst aoe attacks (sticky+mortar volley+ pulse cannon) however the overall effectiveness will depend on the players skill and timing regardless this potent aoe combo alone could add significantly over the course of an entire game. Now you might be thinking " so what? lots of classes have aoe" and you might think the Vanguards trick set ends here. However it doesnt the overall dmg numbers are skewed by two strong dots which can be spammed on passers by tab targeted ammo dump cooldowned onto multiple foes at once or in those situations where death is assured spamming and refreshing dots before dying. I firmly believe that whenever a Assault Vanguards is skewed out of line with others you can be assured that these are the tactics some use to bolster their overall dmg, Vanguards just simply are not using only single target dps to achieve the numbers shown in screen shots

 

I guess when a player gets hit by an cooldown augmented crit infused rotation, blows up. Then after the match sees the Bolstered damage the Vanguard did using his other tools It becomes understandable why someone would think a Vanguard must be doing the miracle burst none stop to everyone.

 

I totally agree.

[SaulSerpine]

The Hulk compares himself to Superman in order to show everyone that he is not OP when fighting an average human

 

Btw: Watch Exphryl's PT video. I think somewhere in there he does >18k damage in ~3 seconds.

 

Just a question : what class do you play and are you using bioch ?

 

BTW : It is not 18k dmg in 3 seconds because the TD was delayed and used earlier. Not our fault if one of our stronger spell hit after a delay of 3s....

Edited May 14, 2012 by SaulSerpine

[Metalmac]

Funny, I guess the concept of dot kiting escape you....

 

DoT kiting is not going to kill anyone or even phase them unless I spec into a almost useless spec of DoT and run and hide that is about as much fun as it sounds. The Sage class is supposed to be a Glass Cannon.

 

So your soulution is stay Glass but no cannon as the belongs to the Power Tech with Heavy armor?

[Ich_Bin]

Just a question : what class do you play and are you using bioch ?

 

BTW : It is not 18k dmg in 3 seconds because the TD was delayed and used earlier. Not our fault if one of our stronger spell hit after a delay of 3s....

 

It's not your "fault" that you do insane burst at all. Noone said that. We are just arguing about whether it is balanced or not.

However it is a great advantage to have skills that do delayed damage because if timed right, it improves your burst potential significantly and makes healing / shielding / guarding / taunting / use of warzone medpacks impossible in some situations and thus takes away from the complexity of the game.

 

To answer your question: I am playing Tank Assassin, DPS Operative and Pyro PT. Biochem on all three characters.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Metalmac]

Just a question : what class do you play and are you using bioch ?

 

BTW : It is not 18k dmg in 3 seconds because the TD was delayed and used earlier. Not our fault if one of our stronger spell hit after a delay of 3s....

 

Power Tech have locked me down and killed me in under 10 seconds.

 

As a supposed to be Glass Cannon Sage there is no Sage that can lock down and kill in 10 seconds.

 

So your excuse that a heavy armor class that is much harder to kill then a Sage should have higher burst?

 

Like I said before this is backwards. Higher armor means better survival and less damage, not more of both.

[Ich_Bin]

Power Tech have locked me down and killed me in under 10 seconds.

 

As a supposed to be Glass Cannon Sage there is no Sage that can lock down and kill in 10 seconds.

 

So your excuse that a heavy armor class that is much harder to kill then a Sage should have higher burst?

 

Like I said before this is backwards. Higher armor means better survival and less damage, not more of both.

 

Well the guy that mentioned dot kiting certainly had a point in that a dot kiting Sage can have better survivability than a Pyro PT in some situations (of course once they get CCed and focused, the Sage will go down much quicker).

However the problem is that those dots (and basically every damage that the Sage does) are EASIELY outhealed/nullified while the burst damage that a Pyro PT can do is impossible to outheal in many situations.

 

Lots of people are complaining about healers becoming useless in rated warzones. The problem is that if you are facing a coordinated team with two Pyro PTs they will burst their targets down so quickly that no healer can ever safe them.

 

When you have Pyro PTs on your team there is no more strategy involved. You don't need to kill the healers on the opposing team first. You don't need to interrupt their heals. Basically you don't have to pick your targets carefully at all.

All you gotta do is someone selects ANY target and calls it on voice chat. That target is dead almost immediately. Then you move on to the next and so forth and there is nothing your opponents can do about it.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Ich_Bin