Powertechs aren't OP

[Ich_Bin]

I can tell that you do not have a higher understanding of pvp dynamics. Powertech needs to be within 10m to do a lot of damagel. They have a total of FOUR, count them FOUR 30m ranged attacks, after that, everything is 10m on in. The default attack was included in the four, then there is another one that requires them to stand still. They have no gap closers, though one can make an argument the pull is one.

 

A pyro can do great put you in the ground damage 12.5% of the time, 15 seconds every 2 minutes. Unfortunately, they have an abundance of weaknesses that you should probably scroll through and read. I realize that all you see are those awesome powerup attacks and think that is what the class is about, but it isn't. They have weaknesses and bad players who don't pay attention get wrecked.

 

I am playing a Powertech myself so I kinda know how many 30m attacks they have (I guess you did not count Explosive Dart and Electro Dart which is fine). Grapple is a gap closer, it's not something that you can debate really. It closes a gap, therefore it is a gap closer. Actually it is the best gap closer that this game has to offer.

 

The problem that I see with Pyro PTs is plain and simple: As soon as you have 2-3 of them in a coordinated team they can burst targets down so fast that no healer/guard can even safe them.

 

This has the following consequences:

1. They don't need to kill healers first, they don't need to interrupt healers. They can pick any target they whish and kill it easiely.

2. The first fights in a warzone (when every ability is off cooldown) are the most important ones. Take Novare Coast as an example. 1 team taps west, 1 team taps east. The decision of which team gets the upper hand (defending is always easier than attacking) usually comes down to which teams wins the fight in the south.

The team with Pyro PTs kills 2-3 of their opponents dps pretty much instantly. Then their only "weakness" (low survivability vs dps) doesn't matter anymore as there are only healers/tanks or maybe 1 dps left which they can finish off for desert.

 

You see why the 15s CD on Rail Shot is really not important in regards to this issue?

Edited May 13, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[exphryl]

I am playing a Powertech myself so I kinda know how many 30m attacks they have (I guess you did not count Explosive Dart and Electro Dart which is fine). Grapple is a gap closer, it's not something that you can debate really. It closes a gap, therefore it is a gap closer. Actually it is the best gap closer that this game has to offer.

 

45 Second gap closer that adds / affected by resolve > Charge? Not to mention buffing abilities like charge does depending on spec. Or you talking Huttball here?

The problem that I see with Pyro PTs is plain and simple: As soon as you have 2-3 of them in a coordinated team they can burst targets down so fast that no healer/guard can even safe them.

 

You've never seen 3 Maras run through assisting each other? (Or any class for that matter)

 

1. They don't need to kill healers first, they don't need to interrupt healers. They can pick any target they whish and kill it easiely.

 

They actually do need to interrupt healers at times, unless the healer does zero things to attack us and lets us just damage them in to oblivion.

 

2. The first fights in a warzone (when every ability is off cooldown) are the most important ones. Take Novare Coast as an example. 1 team taps west, 1 team taps east. The decision of which team gets the upper hand (defending is always easier than attacking) usually comes down to which teams wins the fight in the south.

The team with Pyro PTs kills 2-3 of their opponents dps pretty much instantly. Then their only "weakness" (low survivability vs dps) doesn't matter anymore as there are only healers/tanks or maybe 1 dps left which they can finish off for desert.

 

Teams of operatives are stun locking people to death making them lose subs too I heard. /sarcasm

[Balor]

Pretty sad this is going on. Lets recap so there is no confusion, but in the most general terms.

 

OP says: " X is too high", provides only 1 log containing 1 fight (which could be edited, he coulda been in PVE gear, or Pyro had ALL cds popped)

 

 

Billy responds: " X is not too high, it is only high because A,B, and C are lower then normal." Evidence is presented negating OP's argument, and disproving such.

 

 

Joe responds supporting the OP: " X is too high" , providing no proof, no logs, no evidence what-so-ever. Joe is Blinded by how horrible he is in PVP as he states nothing has been proven otherwise.

 

 

James responds to Joe: "X is not too high, Billy has already shown you, in detail and with evidence, why it is not. Why can't you see that?" and provides further evidence

 

More followers of the OP and horribad PVPers (so bad they would ragequit playing My Little Pony online) respond as if no evidence has been presented, and still fail to present any evidence of their own.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Balor

[Jarfunkz]

I am playing a Powertech myself so I kinda know how many 30m attacks they have (I guess you did not count Explosive Dart and Electro Dart which is fine). Grapple is a gap closer, it's not something that you can debate really. It closes a gap, therefore it is a gap closer. Actually it is the best gap closer that this game has to offer.

 

The problem that I see with Pyro PTs is plain and simple: As soon as you have 2-3 of them in a coordinated team they can burst targets down so fast that no healer/guard can even safe them.

 

This has the following consequences:

1. They don't need to kill healers first, they don't need to interrupt healers. They can pick any target they whish and kill it easiely.

2. The first fights in a warzone (when every ability is off cooldown) are the most important ones. Take Novare Coast as an example. 1 team taps west, 1 team taps east. The decision of which team gets the upper hand (defending is always easier than attacking) usually comes down to which teams wins the fight in the south.

The team with Pyro PTs kills 2-3 of their opponents dps pretty much instantly. Then their only "weakness" (low survivability vs dps) doesn't matter anymore as there are only healers/tanks or maybe 1 dps left which they can finish off for desert.

 

You see why the 15s CD on Rail Shot is really not important in regards to this issue?

 

Well explosive dart shares a cd with td so I consider them one attack as well as electrodart is a cc. If you are going to include cc's why not include the two taunts. Best gap closer in the game doesn't work with resolve... interesting theory, but because of that fact it is dis-proven.

 

The thing with a team of pyros is that you know where they are at all times, within 10m of their target. I don't think aoe taunt can work any better in that scenario. I personally would probably use interupts for healers, just because there are counters as well as I like to make sure my targets die. I don't know what server you play on, I can only assume that everyone is as bad as your perspective indicates, but outside of 10m, pyros are pretty harmless. This makes them incredibly easy to peel off effectively. Knockback, root, stun, snare, or hell, just straight up kill them since they don't have good defense. Hell, even the tank spec is the worst tank out of all the tanks, I doubt a nondefensive spec is going to pose much of a threat to being targeted by multiple players.

 

The 15 second railshot is important... because if the pt is past 10 meters, there is no way for the pt to get railshot back in less than 15 seconds. Funny how tactics tend to work... When people say run away from the pyro, they aren't saying run for your life, they are saying, don't be dumb enough to get within 10m of the pyro. Kiting is a legit strategy, I think you would be surprised how well it can work against many of the classes.

 

You did a good job, not reading any of the posts I made prior to this one, thoroughly explaining multiple counters. It is almost as if you enjoy living in an ignorant state and love being submediocre in pvp because you reinforce it so often.

[Ich_Bin]

45 Second gap closer that adds / affected by resolve > Charge? Not to mention buffing abilities like charge does depending on spec. Or you talking Huttball here?

I agree that Charge has advantages over Grapple if you include resolve and the CD so you definitely have a point. I was only commenting on whether or not Grapple is a gap closer and the way it works. Pulling your opponent into your own group certainly has benefits over Charging in a group of opponents, that's all that I am saying.

 

 

You've never seen 3 Maras run through assisting each other? (Or any class for that matter)

I don't get what you are saying... Are you talking about Huttball?

 

They actually do need to interrupt healers at times, unless the healer does zero things to attack us and lets us just damage them in to oblivion.

"at times" says it all

 

 

 

Teams of operatives are stun locking people to death making them lose subs too I heard. /sarcasm

Fun fact: Operatives have less 30m range abilities, which generally don't hit nearly as hard as a Powertech's. Also their main damage ability is on a 12s cooldown and requires close to melee range, has a positional requirement and does less damage than Rail Shot.

Overall they do less burst dmg, MUCH less sustained dmg than PTs and they have to be in melee range constantly, while also being squishier than PTs. Also they don't have a gap closer

[Balor]

I agree that Charge has advantages over Grapple if you include resolve and the CD so you definitely have a point. I was only commenting on whether or not Grapple is a gap closer and the way it works. Pulling your opponent into your own group certainly has benefits over Charging in a group of opponents, that's all that I am saying.

 

 

 

I don't get what you are saying... Are you talking about Huttball?

 

 

"at times" says it all

 

 

 

 

Fun fact: Operatives have less 30m range abilities, which generally don't hit nearly as hard as a Powertech's. Also their main damage ability is on a 12s cooldown and requires close to melee range, has a positional requirement and does less damage than Rail Shot.

Overall they do less burst dmg, MUCH less sustained dmg than PTs and they have to be in melee range constantly, while also being squishier than PTs. Also they don't have a gap closer

 

If you think Operatives are squishier then Powertechs, you already made yourself look stupid. It is 100x easier to get Immortal as a conceal operative (even easier as healer), then it is as any spec of PT/VG

[Ich_Bin]

(snip)

 

I will only reply to posts that are not full of insults. It's just not worth my time

[Ich_Bin]

If you think Operatives are squishier then Powertechs, you already made yourself look stupid. It is 100x easier to get Immortal as a conceal operative (even easier as healer), then it is as any spec of PT/VG

 

If you define squishiness by the amount of times that you can get "imortal" then you are probably correct.

By your definition you could also say that Marauders and Juggernauts are squishier than Operatives.

 

I would define it differently though. I guess it's all just a matter of perspective

 

 

Edit: Oh no, now I DID reply to an insulting comment. Oh well, I'll hopefully do it better next time.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Xerain]

I agree. Pyro PTs/Assault Vanguards are ridiculous. There is NO class that can pull the amount of burst damage with such ease like a PT can. A Pyro PT, played by a pro or by a complete noob, will always end up in top dps. On top of that they have some amazing utility. Grapple/Harpoon, most likely one of the most devastating abilities in PvP if used correctly. A common 4s stun and an aoe stun for a smaller duration.

So the one thing you could say they lack is defensive abilities right? Nope. They're still surprisingly tough thanks to the tank tree that's woven partially in into the entire AC, on top of that -25% damage reduction for a long duration and a 15s heal. All in all, their defensive abilities aren't top notch, but they're still average and they don't need more really.

 

Top damage, high utility and average defensive abilities. There is no class that can pull that off.

 

I've never been fond of nerfing, since a part of the community will be displeased, but honestly what other alternative is there? Buff every single class up to the level Pyro PT/Assault Vanguard is on? Some kind of classes could use a bit of tweaking, but I've never encountered something like a Pyro PT/Assault Vanguard.

 

Pyro doesn't need nerfed and no one needs a buff.

[Sathid]

Pyro's damage output should be toned down alittle imo.

[TheJedai]

Whoever says that powertechs/vanguards are not op either plays one and therefore doesn't want the class to be nerfed, or has no clue about what he's talking about.

 

1- Insane damage burst

2- Good utility, pull (you can say 45 secs cd, gets affected by resolve, it's still good), stun, aoe stun, interrupt

3- squishy but you can have your shield back pretty quickly

4- Not affected by interrupts

5- 2 powertechs targeting the same guy is something insane (you can say that is valid for every class, however no other class has got burst damage as good as they do)

 

If you think this class has got many weaknesses or is not op, then I encourage you to play commando/merc with the same spec.

 

1- Mediocre burst (you get 60% less armor pen than powertechs/vanguards)

2- Crap utility

3- squishy but you can have your shield back pretty quickly

4- affected by interrupts

5 - 2 hitting the same target really doesn't kill him fast

 

The reason why no one complains about assault commandos/pyro mercs is because that spec is mediocre for them.

The reason why everyone complains about powertechs/vanguards is because that spec is op for them for the differences I stated above.

[Blloodbane]

I dont play PT, and there are some really good ones out there that own my Mara (Carnage specc BTW) and they sure as heck hurt! BUT

 

They are not OP and I think they are fine as is... Their grapple ability annoys me more No its not OP either...

[Humankeg]

Read this rather intelligent individuals post, and you will notice that with the power of 8 or less clicks a powertech can kill anyone except a shadow/jugg in less than 7 seconds without even trying. And yes i agree with the numbers he posted, if not higher than those.

 

I wouldn't call that outplayed, since i can still solo everyone powertech on my realm and don't rlly have any problems with them except when they focus me out of the blue, its more like..by the time you notice your on fire for 3 seconds, you are already bursted into nothing and you can barely react, if react, at all.

 

You should be able to solo everyone on your server minus the occasional shadow/assassin and sniper/gunslinger, and with ease.

 

If you, as a sentinel, lose to a PT, you are just bad. Same thing with most other classes.

 

Just had to remind me of my ex.. didnt you..

 

But rlly, reduce the arp to 60% for railshot, not 90%, and rocket punch by about 20%, and elemental damage can stay the same..and i think they would fix it somewhat. Would hurt their burst big time but at least it would be reasonable.

 

Increase PT dot damage by 5%, auto/free attack damage by 10%, include another quality defensive cool down, lower the cool down on graple by 10 seconds, and sure, PT's would be fine with the burst nerfs you just asked for.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Humankeg

[Balor]

Thanks for summarizing

I just stated opinions that have already been proven incorrect 20 pages ago. I can't deny anything.

 

Fixt for accuracy

[TheJedai]

Fixt for accuracy

 

I'd like you to prove how anything I said is incorrect. It would actually require you to know what you're talking about, which ofc is not the case

Edited May 13, 2012 by TheJedai

[Dasgruberg]

Yeah they hit hard, but they have no defense so its balanced

 

Got a bm shadow and conqueror jug, and i like the current PTs. ur afraid of their dps, but cc them correctly and u can kill them.

[tspev]

Got a bm shadow and conqueror jug, and i like the current PTs. ur afraid of their dps, but cc them correctly and u can kill them.

 

It is not a matter if you can kill them or not, but rather the amount of burst they do in such a short time. Is the Burst not they whole reasoning behind operatives haveign super long CD's added to thier primary attacks?

 

Time to Kill has been totally out of line since 1.2 released ans it seems only people defending it are the DP Sriding on the train of the double beenfit from it.

[Dustychild]

There is more damage coming from stelth classes attacking from stealth then for PTs. Those back attacks need nerfed but 2/3. to bring them down to others damage.

[CoNfuSioN_]

Jesus, a bunch of einsteins in this community.

 

Ok, if the moons and stars align, every attack is a critical hit, and the powertech/vanguard uses every single offensive cooldown as a biochem user, they do 20k single target damage in what? Seven or eight clicks?

 

Yeah, because every powertech and/or vanguard has that critical rate cube that brings them to 100% rating, and as a side effect is immune to damage and stuns during this duration.

 

Let's apply this genius stars and moons aligning crap to another class I'm familiar with, the Focus Guardian.

 

2k saber throw to start the fight

1k damage on force leap to close gap

Force Exhaustion, which slows the target from 60% movement speed to 10%, POSSIBLY ticking for 1k a tick over six seconds, with the last tick doing 2k.

Force Sweep for an AoE 5-6k damage.

4k blade storm.

5k dispatch.

 

Look at that, over 20k damage in seven GCDs, Guardian OP. Nerf nerf nerf.

 

Now let's apply this genius logic to yet another class, because all you balance professionals probably still don't get the picture. Remember, we're whining about every single thing being a stars and moons aligned critical hit here.

 

4k Shoot First

1k Flachette round DoTs

5k back blast

2k pistol whip

2k sucker punch (proc)

2k sucker punch (proc)

sabo charge

2k sucker punch + 3k sabo detonation

 

Nerf NERF NERF SCOUNDRELS!! Scoundrel OP!

 

 

Bottom line, we could play this all day long. Is a class OP when it uses every single offensive cooldown, is blessed by the RNG gods, and ignored? Of course it is, everyone is alloted 15 seconds of OP time every 3 minutes assuming the enemy team is stupid enough to let them free cast.

 

Of course some following 20 pages of braindead nonsense will persist with your average joe schmoe popping in to voice his "I agree, got killed by one, OP" comments.

 

If this were my forum, I'd be nerfing stupid people's posting rights.

[DweezillKagemand]

Thermal Detonator

Instant

Heat: 16

Cooldown: 15s

Range: 30 m

Hurls a thermal detonator that adheres to the target and detonates after several seconds. Standard and weak enemies enter a state of panic while the explosive is active. The explosion deals 949 kinetic damage when it detonates. Standard and weak targets are knocked back from the blast. Shares a 15-second cooldown with Explosive Dart.

 

Flame Burst

Instant

Heat: 16

Range: 10 m

Fires a burst of flame at the target that deals 558 - 622 elemental damage.

 

Incendiary Missile

Instant

Heat: 25

Range: 30 m

Fires a missile that explodes on contact, igniting the target for 216 elemental damage and an additional 689 elemental damage over 18 seconds.

 

Rail Shot

Instant

Heat: 16

Cooldown: 15s

Range: 30 m

Fires a very powerful shot at the target that deals 1404 - 1591 weapon damage. Only usable against incapacitated targets and targets suffering from periodic damage.

 

Rocket Punch

Instant

Heat: 16

Cooldown: 9s

Range: 4 m

Engages the jetpack, allowing you to strike the target with a heavy punch that deals 2205 - 2415 kinetic damage.

 

Actually only 2 out 5 abilities in the pyro burst rotation are elemental. They are also the weakest hitting abilities, but don't let facts get in the way of your PvEr awesomeness.

 

Oh, your rotation only has 5 attacks?

 

Lol.

[KBSIP]

Oh, your rotation only has 5 attacks?

 

Lol.

 

That's nowhere near the full rotation if someone is actually managing heat, that's just the brain-dead no motion rotation with no consideration for taunts, CC's, etc. Not much of a viable reality in PVP, and not viable in most new PVE fights either.

 

His damage on abilities is also pretty off, the thermal detonator should be almost double the damage portrayed, maybe a little lower, and none of the damage there is scaled to expertise. I'm pretty sure the flame burst is wrong too, mine hits for around 900 damage on average non-crit, but once against that's PVE gear. I havent checked my ability damage in PVP for a while (dead server, no pvp to speak of)

[DweezillKagemand]

Jesus, a bunch of einsteins in this community.

 

Ok, if the moons and stars align, every attack is a critical hit, and the powertech/vanguard uses every single offensive cooldown as a biochem user, they do 20k single target damage in what? Seven or eight clicks?

 

Yeah, because every powertech and/or vanguard has that critical rate cube that brings them to 100% rating, and as a side effect is immune to damage and stuns during this duration.

 

Let's apply this genius stars and moons aligning crap to another class I'm familiar with, the Focus Guardian.

 

2k saber throw to start the fight

1k damage on force leap to close gap

Force Exhaustion, which slows the target from 60% movement speed to 10%, POSSIBLY ticking for 1k a tick over six seconds, with the last tick doing 2k.

Force Sweep for an AoE 5-6k damage.

4k blade storm.

5k dispatch.

 

Look at that, over 20k damage in seven GCDs, Guardian OP. Nerf nerf nerf.

 

Now let's apply this genius logic to yet another class, because all you balance professionals probably still don't get the picture. Remember, we're whining about every single thing being a stars and moons aligned critical hit here.

 

4k Shoot First

1k Flachette round DoTs

5k back blast

2k pistol whip

2k sucker punch (proc)

2k sucker punch (proc)

sabo charge

2k sucker punch + 3k sabo detonation

 

Nerf NERF NERF SCOUNDRELS!! Scoundrel OP!

 

 

Bottom line, we could play this all day long. Is a class OP when it uses every single offensive cooldown, is blessed by the RNG gods, and ignored? Of course it is, everyone is alloted 15 seconds of OP time every 3 minutes assuming the enemy team is stupid enough to let them free cast.

 

Of course some following 20 pages of braindead nonsense will persist with your average joe schmoe popping in to voice his "I agree, got killed by one, OP" comments.

 

If this were my forum, I'd be nerfing stupid people's posting rights.

 

 

Yeeaaaaah. Seems balanced.

[DweezillKagemand]

That's nowhere near the full rotation if someone is actually managing heat, that's just the brain-dead no motion rotation with no consideration for taunts, CC's, etc. Not much of a viable reality in PVP, and not viable in most new PVE fights either.

 

His damage on abilities is also pretty off, the thermal detonator should be almost double the damage portrayed, maybe a little lower, and none of the damage there is scaled to expertise. I'm pretty sure the flame burst is wrong too, mine hits for around 900 damage on average non-crit, but once against that's PVE gear. I havent checked my ability damage in PVP for a while (dead server, no pvp to speak of)

 

Actually, it's pretty viable for PvP (just tried this out)

 

It's def the easiest class to play atm.

[KBSIP]

 

Yeeaaaaah. Seems balanced.

 

that video is out of date, posted pre-1.2 PPA nerf. none of the burst is reliable as you can no longer chain Procs instantly beyond 2 if you allow full cooldown on one railshot. Also is in a low expertise environment against generally bad pugs (reference guys walking through acid with no speed boost, poor backpedaling, etc).

 

If you're going to complain about 1.2 balance please use data from 1.2

 

Addendum;

The player is also a biochem pre major biochem nerfs, going against clearly undergeared non-biochem players.

Edited May 13, 2012 by KBSIP
addendums

[KBSIP]

Actually, it's pretty viable for PvP (just tried this out)

 

It's def the easiest class to play atm.

 

so, you're telling me you did fine in PVP at level 50 without using CC, your low HoT, defensive cooldown, gap closer, taunts, and 0 use of rapid shots of heat management abilities? because I'ma call that a lie. If you use strictly that rotation, and nothing else, a competent player in a decent class meant to handle MDPS will wipe the floor with you