Powertechs aren't OP

[TapSumBatt]

OP or not. No class should be centered around 4 instants. Doesn't make much of a game.

[Cempa]

[0 Secs] TO + IM

[1.5 Secs] TD

Use your Cooldowns, Explosive Fuel, Adrenals. TD will be affected by the cooldowns here if it's already on the target.

[3 Secs] Rail Shot (5K Damage)

[4.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CGC Dot Tick (2K+800 Damage)

[5.5 Secs] TD Explodes for 4.5K Damage

[6 Secs] PPA Proc'd RS for 5K Damage + Refresh of CGC Dot Tick

[7.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CG Dot Tick (2k+800 Damage)

 

 

In 7.5 sec you just managed to do over 20K.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Cempa

[Kayse]

[0 Secs] TO + IM

[1.5 Secs] TD

Use your Cooldowns, Explosive Fuel, Adrenals. TD will be affected by the cooldowns here if it's already on the target.

[3 Secs] Rail Shot (5K Damage)

[4.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CGC Dot Tick (2K+800 Damage)

[5.5 Secs] TD Explodes for 4.5K Damage

[6 Secs] PPA Proc'd RS for 5K Damage + Refresh of CGC Dot Tick

[7.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CG Dot Tick (2k+800 Damage)

 

 

In 7.5 sec you just managed to do over 20K.

 

Yup. Looks balanced to me. What's the prob with this class? I'm a dumb water head and i done forgot why i done come onto this thread.

[tynt]

PTs are fine, people get owned when they are outplayed ... and no i don't play a powertech

[Kayse]

PTs are fine, people get owned when they are outplayed ... and no i don't play a powertech

 

[0 Secs] TO + IM

[1.5 Secs] TD

Use your Cooldowns, Explosive Fuel, Adrenals. TD will be affected by the cooldowns here if it's already on the target.

[3 Secs] Rail Shot (5K Damage)

[4.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CGC Dot Tick (2K+800 Damage)

[5.5 Secs] TD Explodes for 4.5K Damage

[6 Secs] PPA Proc'd RS for 5K Damage + Refresh of CGC Dot Tick

[7.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CG Dot Tick (2k+800 Damage)

 

 

In 7.5 sec you just managed to do over 20K.

 

Read this rather intelligent individuals post, and you will notice that with the power of 8 or less clicks a powertech can kill anyone except a shadow/jugg in less than 7 seconds without even trying. And yes i agree with the numbers he posted, if not higher than those.

 

I wouldn't call that outplayed, since i can still solo everyone powertech on my realm and don't rlly have any problems with them except when they focus me out of the blue, its more like..by the time you notice your on fire for 3 seconds, you are already bursted into nothing and you can barely react, if react, at all.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Kayse

[KBSIP]

[0 Secs] TO + IM

[1.5 Secs] TD

Use your Cooldowns, Explosive Fuel, Adrenals. TD will be affected by the cooldowns here if it's already on the target.

[3 Secs] Rail Shot (5K Damage)

[4.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CGC Dot Tick (2K+800 Damage)

[5.5 Secs] TD Explodes for 4.5K Damage

[6 Secs] PPA Proc'd RS for 5K Damage + Refresh of CGC Dot Tick

[7.5 Secs] Flame Burst + CG Dot Tick (2k+800 Damage)

 

 

In 7.5 sec you just managed to do over 20K.

 

balanced for PVE content, pyros pull 2.5k DPS burst or so for a limited time with CD's and luck, but round out (with the PPA nerf) to about 1500 DPS. Makes them highly valuable for maximum burn phases a-la final floor Soa. Balanced for PVP? hell no, but you can't balance burst damage for PVP. the point of burst is to compact all their high damage into a tight window so that the overall damage stays the same but at any given moment will have peaks and valleys. The could shift pyros to a sustained DPS class, but then I would unsub, because they'd have to make every damage dealer sustained and every healer sustained, every class would end up being the same for the sake of balance, and this game would suck more dick than a 3$ lady of the night.

[Kayse]

and this game would suck more dick than a 3$ lady of the night.

 

Just had to remind me of my ex.. didnt you..

 

But rlly, reduce the arp to 60% for railshot, not 90%, and rocket punch by about 20%, and elemental damage can stay the same..and i think they would fix it somewhat. Would hurt their burst big time but at least it would be reasonable.

[Cempa]

balanced for PVE content, pyros pull 2.5k DPS burst or so for a limited time with CD's and luck, but round out (with the PPA nerf) to about 1500 DPS. Makes them highly valuable for maximum burn phases a-la final floor Soa. Balanced for PVP? hell no, but you can't balance burst damage for PVP. the point of burst is to compact all their high damage into a tight window so that the overall damage stays the same but at any given moment will have peaks and valleys. The could shift pyros to a sustained DPS class, but then I would unsub, because they'd have to make every damage dealer sustained and every healer sustained, every class would end up being the same for the sake of balance, and this game would suck more dick than a 3$ lady of the night.

 

TO - IM - TD- RS - FB - RS (If PPA Procs) = 0 heat

 

TO - IM - TD - RS - FB - PPA RS > 0 Heat - FB - FB - RP - PPA RS > 21 Heat - FB - TD - FB - PPA RS > 43 Heat

 

0-40 5 Dissipation per second

40-80 3 Dissipation per second

80-100 2 Dissipation per second

[Twor]

Read this rather intelligent individuals post, and you will notice that with the power of 8 or less clicks a powertech can kill anyone except a shadow/jugg in less than 7 seconds without even trying. And yes i agree with the numbers he posted, if not higher than those.

 

I wouldn't call that outplayed, since i can still solo everyone powertech on my realm and don't rlly have any problems with them except when they focus me out of the blue, its more like..by the time you notice your on fire for 3 seconds, you are already bursted into nothing and you can barely react, if react, at all.

 

And? That's with all offensive CDs popped. Hows your watchman dot after zenning and popping relics/adrenals? Or your master strike than? Outside of this burst rotation which happens every 2 minutes, you can divide those numbers by more than 2.

If you're a smart player you throw a stun when he pops his CDs (there's an animation for the adrenal...) and than get the hell out of dodge. And for the remaining two minutes if he kills you its your fault.,

 

@Cemnpa please look up what TO means. its a 2 minute CD that makes the next ability free. SO those rotations work *gasp* every 2 minutes.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Twor

[Kayse]

And? That's with all offensive CDs popped. Hows your watchman dot after zenning and popping relics/adrenals? Or your master strike than? Outside of this burst rotation which happens every 2 minutes, you can divide those numbers by more than 2.

If you're a smart player you throw a stun when he pops his CDs (there's an animation for the adrenal...) and than get the hell out of dodge. And for the remaining two minutes if he kills you its your fault.,

 

@Cemnpa please look up what TO means. its a 2 minute CD that makes the next ability free.

 

Notice i did say if he randomly decides to focus me out of the blue, thats implying he already popped all his crap when i was fighting someone else and he's ganking my *** setting me on fire already If i focus them first ya I will always melt them down my point being if you don't pay attention to a powertech you'll be dead before you know it because their burst is simply insane.

 

Also i just blind them..wait 6 seconds when all their attacks already missed.. then pop saber ward. Only thing that should get through will be elemental/thermal the railshot will miss at least but still have to rely on those two cooldowns. If those are not refreshed yet you will get nuked hardcore unless you stealth out of there and hide lol.

 

But regardless, original point being if they focus you before you focus them its going to go heavily in their favor just because of that extra second or two and it may be too late.

[Bryoal]

I've never seen a sniper do 2/3 the damage of that powertech I was QQIng about. I think a good old fashioned nerf is in order.

 

THen you must play with some seriously bad snipers.

[exphryl]

TO - IM - TD- RS - FB - RS (If PPA Procs) = 0 heat

 

TO - IM - TD - RS - FB - PPA RS > 0 Heat - FB - FB - RP - PPA RS > 21 Heat - FB - TD - FB - PPA RS > 43 Heat

 

0-40 5 Dissipation per second

40-80 3 Dissipation per second

80-100 2 Dissipation per second

 

I love how you are taking things out of a guide I wrote a bit out of context, as well as not copying some important parts.

 

First, the above rotation is considering 100% PPA Proc Rate. Which, will hardly ever happen in actual practice. PTs still stuff from it being RNG based and sometimes getting up to 100 Heat without a single proc

 

Secondly, the damage list, in seconds, was based off 100% Crit rate as well. Which, will hardly ever happen in actual practice. I put that together mainly as a theoretical highest DPS you could manage in the shortest amount of time. While it *can* happen. It *won't* happen every game, or even a everyday.

 

But regardless, original point being if they focus you before you focus them its going to go heavily in their favor just because of that extra second or two and it may be too late.

 

Most PvP is determined by who gets the opening attack anyways....regardless of class.

Edited May 13, 2012 by exphryl

[Twor]

Notice i did say if he randomly decides to focus me out of the blue, thats implying he already popped all his crap when i was fighting someone else and he's ganking my *** setting me on fire already If i focus them first ya I will always melt them down my point being if you don't pay attention to a powertech you'll be dead before you know it because their burst is simply insane.

 

Also i just blind them..wait 6 seconds when all their attacks already missed.. then pop saber ward. Only thing that should get through will be elemental/thermal the railshot will miss at least but still have to rely on those two cooldowns. If those are not refreshed yet you will get nuked hardcore unless you stealth out of there and hide lol.

 

But regardless, original point being if they focus you before you focus them its going to go heavily in their favor just because of that extra second or two and it may be too late.

 

Oops sry missed that point in your original post

Yes, but than again you'd stand the same trouble if a sniper popped his CDs and got the first shots of. Or you ate 3 tracers and an unload proc. If you don't initiate the fight against an opponent that has popped his boosts he will have the advantage- thats for sure.

 

*edit* doh, exphryl did beat me in time.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Twor

[KBSIP]

Just had to remind me of my ex.. didnt you..

 

But rlly, reduce the arp to 60% for railshot, not 90%, and rocket punch by about 20%, and elemental damage can stay the same..and i think they would fix it somewhat. Would hurt their burst big time but at least it would be reasonable.

 

I think you could actually just bump railshot pen higher in the AP tree and effectively limit it, though it'd have to be in tier 4-5 to discourage hybrids. this would limit armor pen to 30% for pyro builds, and AP COULD hybrid to get the 90% but would lose immolate, which is actually a major ability for them due to free rocket punch proc and PFT stacks.

[Mormoz]

I agree. Pyro PTs/Assault Vanguards are ridiculous. There is NO class that can pull the amount of burst damage with such ease like a PT can. A Pyro PT, played by a pro or by a complete noob, will always end up in top dps. On top of that they have some amazing utility. Grapple/Harpoon, most likely one of the most devastating abilities in PvP if used correctly. A common 4s stun and an aoe stun for a smaller duration.

So the one thing you could say they lack is defensive abilities right? Nope. They're still surprisingly tough thanks to the tank tree that's woven partially in into the entire AC, on top of that -25% damage reduction for a long duration and a 15s heal. All in all, their defensive abilities aren't top notch, but they're still average and they don't need more really.

 

Top damage, high utility and average defensive abilities. There is no class that can pull that off.

 

I've never been fond of nerfing, since a part of the community will be displeased, but honestly what other alternative is there? Buff every single class up to the level Pyro PT/Assault Vanguard is on? Some kind of classes could use a bit of tweaking, but I've never encountered something like a Pyro PT/Assault Vanguard.

[KBSIP]

I agree. Pyro PTs/Assault Vanguards are ridiculous. There is NO class that can pull the amount of burst damage with such ease like a PT can. A Pyro PT, played by a pro or by a complete noob, will always end up in top dps. On top of that they have some amazing utility. Grapple/Harpoon, most likely one of the most devastating abilities in PvP if used correctly. A common 4s stun and an aoe stun for a smaller duration.

So the one thing you could say they lack is defensive abilities right? Nope. They're still surprisingly tough thanks to the tank tree that's woven partially in into the entire AC, on top of that -25% damage reduction for a long duration and a 15s heal. All in all, their defensive abilities aren't top notch, but they're still average and they don't need more really.

 

Top damage, high utility and average defensive abilities. There is no class that can pull that off.

 

I've never been fond of nerfing, since a part of the community will be displeased, but honestly what other alternative is there? Buff every single class up to the level Pyro PT/Assault Vanguard is on? Some kind of classes could use a bit of tweaking, but I've never encountered something like a Pyro PT/Assault Vanguard.

 

 

maybe you're more familiar with the trees than me, but what tanking abilities are there in the pyro tree that anyone would actually pick up? There's an endurance buff, but thats a waste of talents for a DPS class. The only ability to pick up for defensive abilities then is the energy rebounder which reduced the CD on energy shield when taking damage. Excellent for AOE heavy boss fights, marginally useful for PVP as if you're getting hit enough for it to actually make a difference you're probably being focus fired and are going to die.

 

The only major tank-tastic ability not in the tanking tree is stabilized armor, which is near top-tier in advanced prototype and not easily hybridized for. the extra 2% DR in AP tree is nice, but is avoided by full DPS builds for the most part. Hybrids are actually fairly rare among powertechs outside of a few extra-large servers (IE Fatman).

 

The issue with their shield is that atm if you're willing to absolutely optimize gear you can extend the duration of energy shield by 50% if you stack the 2 piece bonus from a PVE set and another bonus from a PVP set, but if you do this as a pyro you give up 15%extra crit on railshot, a pretty significant loss.

 

Let's be honest here, powertechs are one of the only classes that actually get use out of their set bonuses to a significant degree. The value of these set bonuses should be the model for other classes, and they provide a periphery bonus over any other AC that, when combined with the readily available full armor penetration for a major ability, creates a situation in which the PT can be viewed as overpowered. By making other classes set bonuses match the value of the PT sets, you would create a more balanced environment, and by limiting Armor Pen for pyros by bumping the 60% penetration talent to T4-5 AP you allow for better mitigation

[SaulSerpine]

I agree. Pyro PTs/Assault Vanguards are ridiculous. There is NO class that can pull the amount of burst damage with such ease like a PT can. A Pyro PT, played by a pro or by a complete noob, will always end up in top dps. On top of that they have some amazing utility. Grapple/Harpoon, most likely one of the most devastating abilities in PvP if used correctly. A common 4s stun and an aoe stun for a smaller duration.

So the one thing you could say they lack is defensive abilities right? Nope. They're still surprisingly tough thanks to the tank tree that's woven partially in into the entire AC, on top of that -25% damage reduction for a long duration and a 15s heal. All in all, their defensive abilities aren't top notch, but they're still average and they don't need more really.

 

WOw.... Do you think pyro PT is tankier than a merc ? If yes so you don't play the same game, sorry.

 

I have only 4 points in the tank tree and it is to buff my dmg (RS and elementary dmg)....

 

A very good DPS sage is on the top dmg with me when i play in his team. Is chuck norris playing this game ? I kill PT easier than sniper, but PT can kill me really fast too. It is give or take. If i target first, i win the 1sv1 very quickly. For the sniper ? I need to catch him out of cover and kill him in no time otherwise, he will pop 2 shields, cover, passive shields thanks to cove, 20% defense, immune to cc, dodging protection etc.... I deal more dmg on 5 s. he deals more dmg on 10s. That s how it works.

Edited May 13, 2012 by SaulSerpine

[lpsmash]

As opposed to.... what? Any class can do that. Health and endgame damage mean squat.

 

20k health with your defensive CD being a short cast 25% damage shield...

 

Compared to marauders who get a 30 sec 20% damage shield, immunity, stealth escape, leap for any spec, deflection buff, accuracy debuff- speed buff/defense buff... a bit more survivable.

 

Also- leap on 12 sec CD with root, ignores resolve. PT gap closer for pyrotechs- grapple, 45 sec CD, doesn't ignore resolve. You don't see the difference there do you?

 

Why are you comparing them to Marauders? We already know they're the kings of defensive cooldowns.

 

for the gap closer -> It all comes down to marauders being true melee. Their gap closer propels THEMSELVES; they charge into melee, exposing themselves to the other team (and melees tend to get targeted a lot). I hope you know that, cooldown aside (marauders need to be annihilation to have 12 sec charge, it's 15 sec for other specs), your gap closer is much better. It pulls anything that isn't a sniper on your side. Not only can you pull into a trap, you can also keep someone from scoring (lol pull you from upstairs into the pit, no chance!) or place your kill target in a very vulnerable position (pulling a healer into the melee).

 

But then, you don't have a charge, unless you're tank spec (but we're not talking about tanks). Boo-woo. I mean, you can still do damage from 30 meters, but other melees (are you a melee or not?) can't say that much*

 

*aside from operatives (if they choose to snipe or if they follow with rifle shot) or shadows if they use force potency (1m30 cd, probably already used, but they are harder to kite).

Edited May 13, 2012 by lpsmash

[TirjacShiki]

There are other classes that can totally wreck anyone in the same amount of time, you guys don't notice it because you instinctively run away from them when they start hitting you, like Snipers for example. Their burst potential is so much higher, no one complains because you just run away from them.

 

Why don't you just run away from powertechs? People complain about our snare, it's hardly even noticeable especially with all the snares other classes can do which basically neutralizes it. Just imagine if we had legshot, now THATS OP. You just need to survive the first few seconds while the adrenals and such are running, then you have a much better chance.

[Ich_Bin]

There are other classes that can totally wreck anyone in the same amount of time, you guys don't notice it because you instinctively run away from them when they start hitting you, like Snipers for example. Their burst potential is so much higher, no one complains because you just run away from them.

 

Why don't you just run away from powertechs? People complain about our snare, it's hardly even noticeable especially with all the snares other classes can do which basically neutralizes it. Just imagine if we had legshot, now THATS OP. You just need to survive the first few seconds while the adrenals and such are running, then you have a much better chance.

 

Powertechs can run and do damage at the same time (Snipers not as much). They also have got a pull (even though most of the time they won't even need it). So running away from them is pretty hard, especially given the fact that you only have 5 seconds or so until they finish you off.

 

Bottom line: If a Powertech really wants you dead, there is usually not much that you can do about it. And that's what bothers people.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[SaulSerpine]

Powertechs can run and do damage at the same time (Snipers not as much). They also have got a pull (even though most of the time they won't even need it). So running away from them is pretty hard, especially given the fact that you only have 5 seconds or so until they finish you off.

 

Bottom line: If a Powertech really wants you dead, there is usually not much that you can do about it. And that's what bothers people.

 

 

A sniper is not mobile, but it is a different gameplay. When a sniper see me and start to dps me before i engage him, my life goes down really fast. I can pull him (only if i stun him first) but I have just a 25% shield, and he has 3 shields, plus cover, roots and knock back. I am very mobile but it is not very helpful against a static class with 20% defense and i need to stay very close to play my rotation. Before i could dmg him with my delayed strong dmg, i am dead. Against a pyro, you have to run a dps race, that s it. Target him first. Of course he will kill you if he engages first you because, you will notice the dmg after the third gcd.... And it is already late. He was working on you during 3 gcd and you don't even counter.... You lose the dps race, you die.

 

The thing is, PT has a strong armor penetration for RS ! So hen he use adrenals, he will take more advantage of it, when he gets more power from relic/adrenals, the bonus bypass the armor.

 

How do you want to nerf him without touching merc or AP tree (mid spec pyro) ??? You touch flame burst ? It is the bread butter of AP. Don't even think about it. Lots of PT plays pyro and very few plays AP.... You don't want to kill pyro spec and even less AP spec which is not popular. Rocket punch ? Same thing... TD ? Merc pyro won't like it. Same for RS (arsenal,AP and pyro nerf )but you can nerf the armor penetration of RS. You can even nerf bioch and expertise!

Edited May 13, 2012 by SaulSerpine

[exphryl]

 

Let's be honest here, powertechs are one of the only classes that actually get use out of their set bonuses to a significant degree.

 

My 2PC is for abilities Powertech doesn't even have....

[Ich_Bin]

My 2PC is for abilities Powertech doesn't even have....

 

Even though you are wearing Mercenary gear? Weird.

[Jarfunkz]

Powertechs can run and do damage at the same time (Snipers not as much). They also have got a pull (even though most of the time they won't even need it). So running away from them is pretty hard, especially given the fact that you only have 5 seconds or so until they finish you off.

 

Bottom line: If a Powertech really wants you dead, there is usually not much that you can do about it. And that's what bothers people.

 

I can tell that you do not have a higher understanding of pvp dynamics. Powertech needs to be within 10m to do a lot of damagel. They have a total of FOUR, count them FOUR 30m ranged attacks, after that, everything is 10m on in. The default attack was included in the four, then there is another one that requires them to stand still. They have no gap closers, though one can make an argument the pull is one.

 

A pyro can do great put you in the ground damage 12.5% of the time, 15 seconds every 2 minutes. Unfortunately, they have an abundance of weaknesses that you should probably scroll through and read. I realize that all you see are those awesome powerup attacks and think that is what the class is about, but it isn't. They have weaknesses and bad players who don't pay attention get wrecked.

[exphryl]

Even though you are wearing Mercenary gear? Weird.

 

Since the poster I quoted wanted other classes set bonuses like a PTs, seems silly that we have to wear a Mercenary gear just for our main dps spec in pvp....