Is it true Scoundrel/Operative DPS is not wanted in Raiding ?

[Lord_Karsk]

Have not asked my guild mates about this. But i hear this all the time.

I want to lvl up an alt for Raiding,and i have a Scoundrel and Gunnslinger.

 

Now i know Gunnslinger is great for DPS in raiding but how about scoundre/operativel DPS ?

is it worth it for Raiding ...

[Freeborne]

Tough to say since supposedly Smugglers are the least played class. The op group I used to run with had 4-6 of them depending on the night. : P

 

I've never played with a Scoundrel DPS in endgame on a regular basis, but I wouldn't turn one down.

 

In the very least when you get to 50 you have a great healing class if you ever decide to go in that direction.

[Jarwan]

It depends on the build. Most of the time when I'm asked to join a group, they always ask if I'm built for heals. I've always preferred Scrapper so I rarely get into parties. If you don't want to go full Sawbones for a long term then how about you switch to Sawbones and just gear up for Scrapper with the Enforcer sets. That way you'll be invited for many parties and gear up for the DPS stuff which you'll eventually settle down to.

 

I'm stubborn so I'm still sticking to Scrapper and riding this train of nerf and Bioware rage........

[KyoMamoru]

Operatives are a ton less forgiving when it comes to rotations with either of the DPS builds they have. Due to this, it's very, very easy to be a bad one. DPS wise, they are comparable to the other classes not named Marauders [i've parsed up to 1500 without Adrenals/Relics recently on the Operation Dummy] with Concealment. Unfortunately, as mentioned, it is very, very, hard to reach that state so most players are judging you off the average Operative DPS player, which is pretty subpar. Edited May 10, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[Burgdawg]

It's not that your dps isn't wanted, it's that in any mmo, healers are a rare breed. So when they see you playing a healer class, they're just praying you're a healer. Especially scoundrels and sages, as combat medic got the nerf and they have brez.

[wainot-keel]

It's not that your dps isn't wanted, it's that in any mmo, healers are a rare breed. So when they see you playing a healer class, they're just praying you're a healer. Especially scoundrels and sages, as combat medic got the nerf and they have brez.

 

Yeah, the healing nerf made a hit in my guild healer population. Before 1.2, we had little trouble puggin (inside the guild) a HM or even operation. Now, the healer spot is the last one to be taken, if at all. People being asked to go to the mentor's and respec is kinda common too,

To be entirely honest, the nerfs look really bad on paper, but last week I made a run on FE HM with a merc as healer who just ding'd 50 the night before. I was a bit worried, with all the stuff I read her. But it was really ok. She kept everybody alive, no wipes. And I was new to that instance and my marauder had only 2 columni pieces. I know, a very small example from my limited experience, but still...

[Burgdawg]

Yeah, the healing nerf made a hit in my guild healer population. Before 1.2, we had little trouble puggin (inside the guild) a HM or even operation. Now, the healer spot is the last one to be taken, if at all. People being asked to go to the mentor's and respec is kinda common too,

To be entirely honest, the nerfs look really bad on paper, but last week I made a run on FE HM with a merc as healer who just ding'd 50 the night before. I was a bit worried, with all the stuff I read her. But it was really ok. She kept everybody alive, no wipes. And I was new to that instance and my marauder had only 2 columni pieces. I know, a very small example from my limited experience, but still...

 

People do tend to overhype their nerfs. I try to stay away from that. If you know your class you can generally adapt and be fine, but you always have those whiners who refuse and reclass/respec. /sigh

[hulkweazel]

Yes, it is true. Every Operative/Scoundrel that I know, if they weren't specced heals before 1.2, respecced to heals if they wanted to do endgame PvE content.

 

This is because we have among the lowest sustained DPS in the game (Some parses do have us pretty close to other classes' DPS but it's rare), we have one of the toughest, most unforgiving rotations, we are a melee class (Most bosses are very unforgiving to melee), we have the added disadvantage of having positional requirements AND do not have a gap closer, we have among the weakest defensive abilities, and we bring next to no utility for raids.

 

You can still do endgame content as DPS, but it'll take a guild that knows you well and knows you won't be a liability to their raid. While the old adage "take the player not the class" still holds true, Op DPS in raids is pretty much a joke right now. Think Druids in Vanilla WoW. That's pretty much the state of affairs for Ops now - spec heals or be laughed at.

[Semitote]

We use operatives occasionally. Assassin DPS is the one you want to stay away from (apparently).

[Seront]

We use operatives occasionally. Assassin DPS is the one you want to stay away from (apparently).

 

Weird.. The Shadow (Republic mirror class) in my guild is top dps on pretty much every Denova boss fight. Maybe all of our other dps suck. Our Scoundrel dps (Scrapper) is usually #2.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Seront

[rymah]

Have not asked my guild mates about this. But i hear this all the time.

I want to lvl up an alt for Raiding,and i have a Scoundrel and Gunnslinger.

 

Now i know Gunnslinger is great for DPS in raiding but how about scoundre/operativel DPS ?

is it worth it for Raiding ...

 

It's not always the class, the player at the controls will determine how effective or ineffective they will be.

[Exiled-Phoenix]

Weird.. The Shadow (Republic mirror class) in my guild is top dps on pretty much every Denova boss fight. Maybe all of our other dps suck. Our Scoundrel dps (Scrapper) is usually #2.

 

Same, my assassin is one of the DPS that gets guard for not stealing agro, lol

Never seen an operative DPS tho, just healers.

[Mavery]

It's not so much that you're not wanted, but Scoundrel / Operative is... unique. Melee DPS has this negative stigma of "it's better to bring a ranged." This continues to exist in EC, but I'm not going any further with that line of thought.

 

The quintessential problem is this: you also have a healing spec, an unbelievable one if played well, and there are always more spots for healers than melee DPS in end game.

 

It might be a bit different if scrapper was ranged, but due to supply and demand, if you want to raid as a scoundrel, you're probably healing.

[xenofire]

Weird.. The Shadow (Republic mirror class) in my guild is top dps on pretty much every Denova boss fight. Maybe all of our other dps suck. Our Scoundrel dps (Scrapper) is usually #2.

 

I think your other dps suck then... Unless of course you're running an 8 man with no armor debuffs.

 

Armor debuffs are kind of a big deal to some class, others not so much. I'm not sure what it's like for scoundrels/ops, but I do know that our operative DPS can't do more than 1400, so unless we're just screwing around and farming, he doesn't get to dps he has to heal. The only melee that aren't a huge liability in this game are juggs or marauders. They've got sick survivability cooldowns, awesome burst, and the best sustained DPS in the game; not to mention bloodthirst for marauders.

 

Other melee dps... Well, you might bring them if you don't have a choice, but given a choice there's no reason to bring them.

[Cronhour]

I'm becoming increasingly certain that any class can be effective if played correctly admittedly marauders have the advantage with bloodthirst yet on kephess pre bug I came out of the aoe in better shape as a powertech. I out dpsed our marauders by some margin my flamethrower owns their ravage (AP rocks pre stacking flamethrower btw.) Also I'm able to pull the bombadier into the centre something a marauder or sniper can't do, not to mention if a tank screws up and dies I can taunt and pop my runspeed buff and cooldowns to allow enough time for a combat res heal up and rebuff. Not to mention my 6 second cooldown interrupt and the fact I debuff the bosses damage and it stacks with our Powertech tanks debuff =D

 

Find what makes your class special and work at it, I'm leveling a scoundrel, admittedly with the intention of healing but you can be sure i'm going to find out how to make it an awesome Damage dealer, the same way I was able to take my awesome damage dealing powertech to tank two progression kills while our MT was away.

[NotRonin]

Concealment operative have an awesome burst, however their sustained DPS is rather bad, especially with the 1.2 changes. As to Lethality operative, I have played the game since Decemebt, and I have yet to met one.

 

For most contents up to HM EV/KP and SM EC, an operative DPS will do just fine. HM EC is however very unforgiving.

[hulkweazel]

Find what makes your class special and work at it, I'm leveling a scoundrel, admittedly with the intention of healing but you can be sure i'm going to find out how to make it an awesome Damage dealer, the same way I was able to take my awesome damage dealing powertech to tank two progression kills while our MT was away.

...and that's exactly the problem. DPS Operatives offer absolutely nothing. They are a melee class with no group buffs/debuffs, they have extremely weak defensive abilities causing extra strain on healers, and they have no gap closer limiting their actual effectiveness.

 

For everyone saying they can still complete content, that means nothing. Stop mistaking "viable" with "useful". As it stands, there is absolutely no point in taking a DPS Operative, and doing so actually makes things harder for your raid group.

[xenofire]

For everyone saying they can still complete content, that means nothing. Stop mistaking "viable" with "useful". As it stands, there is absolutely no point in taking a DPS Operative, and doing so actually makes things harder for your raid group.

 

Precisely. We've got 3 operatives in 16 man hard mode, but one of them knows if they don't reroll there's only a spot for two healers in progression. When it comes down to it, I suppose any class at all is viable in a casual guild. In a hardcore progression based guild the only reason to bring operative dps would be if they are higher DPS than a ranged, which they currently are not.

[Seront]

I think your other dps suck then... Unless of course you're running an 8 man with no armor debuffs.

 

Yeah, we're generally an 8 man casualish guild. We're not horrible. We did at least have the server first for Zorn and Toth on hard mode (Top 20 population server). I know that's not a super accomplishment or anything, but we don't *completely* suck.

[xenofire]

At least concealment operatives can stealth rez more often.

[KyoMamoru]

I think your other dps suck then... Unless of course you're running an 8 man with no armor debuffs.

 

Armor debuffs are kind of a big deal to some class, others not so much. I'm not sure what it's like for scoundrels/ops, but I do know that our operative DPS can't do more than 1400.

 

~30% of the total damage an Operative does is internal. 70% of the rest of his attacks have armor penetration of 30%. Against an Operation Boss which has 5814 armor or 35% DR, this translates into an effective Armor 4,069.8 or 27.36. When we add in a stack of Sunder, armor drops to 2,907 against the Armor Pen or 21.20%. If we are so lucky to Also have a Mercenary, the effective armor drops to 1,744.2, or 13.9%.

 

In other words: [Assume 1700 dps, of which 70% is effected by armor, since concealment can do 1400 on a dummy]

No Acid Blade -> 35% DR -> Internal - 510 | External - 773.5 for a total of 1,283.5 dps.

With Just acid Blade -> 27.36% -> Internal - 510 | External - 864.416 for a total of 1,374.4 dps.

With Sunder+ Acid Blade -> 21.20% [Would be 30% without armor Penetration.] -> Internal - 510 | External - 937.72 for a total of 1,447.72 dps.

With Sunder+Tracer+Acid Blade -> 13.9% [Would be 24.4% without armor Penetration.] Internal - 510 | External - 1,024.59 for a total of 1,534.59 dps.

 

So with that said, Operatives scale relatively well with armor reducing effects. In terms of classes, I believe Annihilation spec scales the worst with armor debuffs.

[xenofire]

That means operatives scale about the same as sorc dps then. Good to know.

[KrittaB]

Don't tell our raid group I guess, we have 3 operatives in it depending on the night and only 1 is a healer.

[xenofire]

Don't tell our raid group I guess, we have 3 operatives in it depending on the night and only 1 is a healer.

 

You guys tanks probably aren't doing 1100 DPS with your next lowest DPS being around 1450-1500 either. Max RDPS means cutting the poorly performing classes and stacking only good dps classes.

[hulkweazel]

At least concealment operatives can stealth rez more often.

Sadly, I feel that this will be changed sometime in the near future. In any case, it's very unreliable as is, considering the number of random AoE attacks flying around. I actually only get it to work maybe 20-30% of the time.