State of the Shadow 1.2 [Video included]

[Xinika]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzZDYbVmoOg

 

Basically, these are my thoughts on Shadow as of 1.2

I'd love to hear your voices.

What do you think of the Shadow/Assassin?

Think we're viable? What specs are in the gutter? What isn't?

[GrayGunner]

I think shadows are definitely one of the stronger classes at the moment. I've been sticking with 31/0/10 since quite some time before 1.2, and while I agree that there is a slight feeling of squishiness occasionally, it is still a phenomenal spec, especially when paired with a good healer and organized group. I still find infiltration to be the most fun, but it could use with a little bit of tweaking, perhaps a talent that allows spinning kick to deal high damage, similar to the hidden strike of Operatives. At the moment, Kinetic and Balance are just superior.

 

How do you feel about this build? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rIrokbskbZZf0cRd.1

 

Very similar to 24/0/17, but you retain harnessed shadows for great sustain and gain 50% crit damage on double strike along with Force in Balance. I played around with this a bit after 1.2 launched, but ended up returning to 31/0/10 due to PvE requirements and not wanting to respec consistently. Let me know what you think.

 

Overall, shadows are still top-notch PvPers and great assets to the team.

[StephenTheOne]

Sooo Shin your voice is Hella Sexy! hahah...anyways like ive been saying for months hybrid is amazing! cough 23/1/17 cough.

[Xinika]

Sooo Shin your voice is Hella Sexy! hahah...anyways like ive been saying for months hybrid is amazing! cough 23/1/17 cough.

 

I've been in denial about that spec... I STILL DO NOT SUPPORT HYBRIDS D:

Yet I am playing one... what gives!!.

[Mindsting]

Enjoyed the video as usual!

 

I've been playing around with my specs as well and the hybrid spec with the 50 extra force set bonus is a total powerhouse. I still enjoy staying in 31/0/10 (PvE specced) since I focus more on making sure I don't let the raid down but on off days the spec is very enjoyable!

 

Let me know if you shell out the credits to see how the healer set works. You're stuck with BM armoring but I'm sure that wouldn't be a hindrance for you.

 

- Consular

[NeverRose]

(From PvP point of view as I do not really care about PvE, you don't need min-max composition, it's easy enough)

 

(Commented before watching the video)

 

 

Shadow ?

 

Not the best tank, not the best dps.

 

Perfect for 1 vs 1 though.

 

Infil - Unreliable without cooldowns. Lol survavibility.

 

Balance - Watered down sage wannabe imo. More viable than Infil though.

 

KC - Good as a premade's offtank (heh). Good for pugging too.

 

 

 

 

----after watching the video----

 

Hybrids...I don't like them either. The lack of Slow Time and hard-hitting TTK hurts my balls.

Edited May 10, 2012 by NeverRose

[matyo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzZDYbVmoOg

 

Basically, these are my thoughts on Shadow as of 1.2

I'd love to hear your voices.

What do you think of the Shadow/Assassin?

Think we're viable? What specs are in the gutter? What isn't?

 

imo kinetic is viable for 8v8 rated.

 

1. kinetic is one of / if not even THE strongest solo-defend / solo-attack class which can be very usefull in almost every warzone (stealth solo def turrets/bombspots etc)

 

2. having both: dps and tank gear gives you the possibility to be FULL TANK when needed (def, huttball)

ASWELL as full DPS or healsupport (dps while guard up) with high burst potential

 

3. in addition you have tons of CC and utility like force pull and sprint

 

 

actually sprint and force pull in combination with stealth are strong enough to take at least 1 shadow KC into your rated lineup

 

our first lineups going to be 6 dps 2 healers, with the option for 1-2 tanks (shadows gearswap)

-1 commando healer

-1 scoundrel healer

-2 kc shadows

-2 sentinels

-1 dps jugger or powertech

-1 dps scoundrel (burst)

 

 

just 2 cents coming from a rank1 frostwolf eu rated BG player (wow, 10vs10 and 15vs15) aswell as 2400+ arena

Edited May 10, 2012 by matyo

[DarthOvertone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzZDYbVmoOg

 

Basically, these are my thoughts on Shadow as of 1.2

I'd love to hear your voices.

What do you think of the Shadow/Assassin?

Think we're viable? What specs are in the gutter? What isn't?

 

Fun video although I liked your other videos better. Your voice is hella-hawt though. Totally down.

 

One small change I've made for my KC Shadow post-1.2 is to actually equip his Shield and use Kinetic Ward. Prior to 1.2 he was rolling with a Rakata Focus pretty much 90% of the time and never used KW in PvP. However, with the need for more survivability and some additional +Expertise in 1.2, my Shadow is using his BM Shield again.

Edited May 10, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[Kabaal]

I didn't roll my Shadow until after 1.2 so it's hard for me to compare the specs to how they were before, i will say that it's much easier for me to take KC's down on my other toons now albeit they're probably still the spec along with PT/Vanguard Pyros that are the only pain in the bum for my Sentinal which says a lot.

 

Myself and the last remaining guy in our guild rerolled recently to a more popular server and both made shadows. We're only BM geared so far (and not even fully yet) but they're the class i've had the most fun on up to this point, even with having others much more geared and tbh better classes. I've been KC up until today and loved it, now i'm trying infil and so far am loving the 7-8k burst from project and force breach (not quite at your 6k+ per hit yet lol), survivability isn't much less than KC tbh just less utility. Balance i'll get round to, haven't even touched it so far as i found it dull on the sorc but should be more frenetic as shadow.

[Xinika]

 

----after watching the video----

 

Hybrids...I don't like them either. The lack of Slow Time and hard-hitting TTK hurts my balls.

 

FiB and insta-FL make up for TK and Slow Time.

It's just a more offensive Kinetic and the burst is actually quite high.

I can see how it's not some's cup of tea, but I was really impressed lately after taking it for a spin.

[Domiinick]

This thread makes me worry for my 30 Rattataki Shadow. :<

[obi_don]

tried the hybrid tonight- the survivability barely changes. You're a lot more mobile and immo you really need to pick up the point to allow maul/shadow strike procs as otherwise its pretty dull rotation.

 

I was underwhelmed by instant force life/ whirlwind. Its great for 2v1 situations but most wz's are too small maps to allow any ninjaing. That and the random pug people tend to break it every time :S. Obviously, it could be great in rated.

 

I suspect though ill roll back to kinetic/ darkness for rated though unless something changes in the other trees.

 

edit: Shin you have a real "evilgasm" when you talk about force lift ^^

Edited May 10, 2012 by obi_don

[StephenTheOne]

tried the hybrid tonight- the survivability barely changes. You're a lot more mobile and immo you really need to pick up the point to allow maul/shadow strike procs as otherwise its pretty dull rotation.

 

I was underwhelmed by instant force life/ whirlwind. Its great for 2v1 situations but most wz's are too small maps to allow any ninjaing. That and the random pug people tend to break it every time :S. Obviously, it could be great in rated.

 

I suspect though ill roll back to kinetic/ darkness for rated though unless something changes in the other trees.

 

edit: Shin you have a real "evilgasm" when you talk about force lift ^^

 

Im sorry, but if you don't think instant force lift is amazing/godsend then your not using it to its full potential.

[Xinika]

edit: Shin you have a real "evilgasm" when you talk about force lift ^^

That's because it's seriously that good .

 

Im sorry, but if you don't think instant force lift is amazing/godsend then your not using it to its full potential.

Indeed. Sometimes the damage doesn't break the effect (Bug?) which leads to an even longer "stun".

[matyo]

FiB and insta-FL make up for TK and Slow Time.

 

i have to disagree. it depends on the situation weather instant force lift is superior to normal force lift or not:

 

instant force lift:

 

- instant cast 8 secc CC: fills resolve to almost max

- if dispelled: 2 sec CC AND fills resolve bar AGAIN

- DOES break on dmg

 

normal force lift:

 

- 2 sec cast 8 sec CC: fills resolve to almost max

- if dispelled: no stun = no resolve add

- does NOT break on dmg

 

 

why is instant force lift dangerous?

 

- when your enemy knows about its weakness: 2 sec stun when it breaks early fills your resolve to MAX:

this can be a benefit for your enemy since he gets an coordinated FULL resolve bar with only 2 sec downtime

 

- when your enemy has dots /and or is attacked by teammates WHILE you need him to be stuned:

2 sec cast is quite a short duration which gets easy to apply even against good players (fake-cast / LOS )

normal forcelift wont break on DMG while target is stuned for 8 sec

 

 

instant force lift can be great but its weaknesses can make it unusable in other situations

Edited May 11, 2012 by matyo

[Xinika]

i have to disagree. it depends on the situation weather instant force lift is superior to normal force lift or not:

 

instant force lift:

 

- instant cast 8 secc CC: fills resolve to almost max

- if dispelled: 2 sec CC AND fills resolve bar AGAIN

- DOES break on dmg

 

normal force lift:

 

- 2 sec cast 8 sec CC: fills resolve to almost max

- if dispelled: no stun = no resolve add

- does NOT break on dmg

 

 

why is instant force lift dangerous?

 

- when your enemy knows about its weakness: 2 sec stun when it breaks early fills your resolve to MAX:

this can be a benefit for your enemy since he gets an coordinated FULL resolve bar with only 2 sec downtime

 

- when your enemy has dots /and or is attacked by teammates WHILE you need him to be stuned:

2 sec cast is quite a short duration which gets easy to apply even against good players (fake-cast / LOS )

normal forcelift wont break on DMG while target is stuned for 8 sec

 

 

instant force lift can be great but its weaknesses can make it unusable in other situations

 

 

I never said it was superior, I said it's on equal footing with what KC has to offer.

23/1/17 has about 80%(Possibly more) of infil's burst and roughly 75% of KC's survivability.

The force management on the build is absolutely astounding, your downtime is little and the

stability in terms of damage is high.

 

You haven't done much testing with FL have you ?

Currently, I'm not sure if this is intentional, but FL sometimes does not break on damage, leading to a full 4 sec stun.

Insta-FL is like comparing it almost to polymorph from WoW. Same logic applies here if you think about it, why would your (rated) team mate hit the polymorphed target?

Not to mention, being able to stop people from such 30 yard range is more than astounding.

 

31/x/x KC and 23/1/17 are different specs. They don't play the same.

[matyo]

as it is can be fatal to use instant force lift i think its questionable to spend those talent-points, even when specced full balance. polymorph glyphed dispelled dots, force lift does not. polymorph had a 1,5 sec casttime and performed great, people just have to learn how to apply it, ofc its "easyer" to not to have to cast. 2 sec aint much

 

but keep in mind: "questionable" does not mean i think instant force lift is not viable.

i just wouldnt consider it categorically good. it has huge weaknesses

 

so what i try to say is: instant force life does not make up for any KC talent, not only because as you stated, you cant really compare, because its 2 different specs but mainly because it has big cons making the 2 sec lower cast time only a situational benefit which can be a huge shot in your own foot aswell

Edited May 11, 2012 by matyo

[Payneintherear]

tried the hybrid tonight- the survivability barely changes. You're a lot more mobile and immo you really need to pick up the point to allow maul/shadow strike procs as otherwise its pretty dull rotation.

 

I was underwhelmed by instant force life/ whirlwind. Its great for 2v1 situations but most wz's are too small maps to allow any ninjaing. That and the random pug people tend to break it every time :S. Obviously, it could be great in rated.

 

I suspect though ill roll back to kinetic/ darkness for rated though unless something changes in the other trees.

 

edit: Shin you have a real "evilgasm" when you talk about force lift ^^

 

Force Lift is only one option for the hybrid build. If you don't value the utility, you can always spec into Adjudication and see your damage increase substantially.

[Payneintherear]

I never said it was superior, I said it's on equal footing with what KC has to offer.

23/1/17 has about 80%(Possibly more) of infil's burst and roughly 75% of KC's survivability.

The force management on the build is absolutely astounding, your downtime is little and the

stability in terms of damage is high.

 

You haven't done much testing with FL have you ?

Currently, I'm not sure if this is intentional, but FL sometimes does not break on damage, leading to a full 4 sec stun.

Insta-FL is like comparing it almost to polymorph from WoW. Same logic applies here if you think about it, why would your (rated) team mate hit the polymorphed target?

Not to mention, being able to stop people from such 30 yard range is more than astounding.

 

31/x/x KC and 23/1/17 are different specs. They don't play the same.

 

The bug with FL is kinda annoying and obviously really overpowered, when it occurs.

 

I suggest you try the Infiltration hybrid with FiB instead of CS, as that's the highest burst spec we currently have (and the reason why KC hybrid seems so bursty). The ability to drop two consecutive high damage abilities that deal internal damage vastly outshines the extra damage from CS (on top of that, it is a) more subtle, as you don't need to jo-jo twice before applying your damage and b) gives you the opportunity to drop that burst as soon as you decide to without having to use 2 GCDs on preparation).

 

The downside to this superior burst and assault spec is obviously the force management (though coming out of stealth, this is bearable), as FiB is really expensive and if you decide to burst without circling shadows, you will be dry afterwards.

[Xinika]

The bug with FL is kinda annoying and obviously really overpowered, when it occurs.

 

I suggest you try the Infiltration hybrid with FiB instead of CS, as that's the highest burst spec we currently have (and the reason why KC hybrid seems so bursty). The ability to drop two consecutive high damage abilities that deal internal damage vastly outshines the extra damage from CS (on top of that, it is a) more subtle, as you don't need to jo-jo twice before applying your damage and b) gives you the opportunity to drop that burst as soon as you decide to without having to use 2 GCDs on preparation).

 

The downside to this superior burst and assault spec is obviously the force management (though coming out of stealth, this is bearable), as FiB is really expensive and if you decide to burst without circling shadows, you will be dry afterwards.

Mind showing me that spec on torhead?

[Payneintherear]

Mind showing me that spec on torhead?

 

http://knotor.com/skills#AgoAHgstSlFia3KCiZGZqrrCytKJq7rL0gAA

 

You can switch things around in tier 1 and 2 of infiltration obviously, though the link contains my preference.

 

The idea is to Project, Force Breach, FiB for burst that is a) greater than CS buffed Project + Force Breach, b) has better mobility and range (nothing like dropping FiB behind you as you move out of the fight and finishing the target off with it) and c) having burst that is 2/3 internal damage and thus great against armored targets.

[Xinika]

http://knotor.com/skills#AgoAHgstSlFia3KCiZGZqrrCytKJq7rL0gAA

 

You can switch things around in tier 1 and 2 of infiltration obviously, though the link contains my preference.

 

The idea is to Project, Force Breach, FiB for burst that is a) greater than CS buffed Project + Force Breach, b) has better mobility and range (nothing like dropping FiB behind you as you move out of the fight and finishing the target off with it) and c) having burst that is 2/3 internal damage and thus great against armored targets.

 

Haha wow, before I read this, I went ahead and made up a 13/28 Balance hybrid version and was absolutely shocked to see how much burst damage I can do. I'll try yours out later, but right now, I am just by how much burst I can do without setup. I also seem to have so much to press and force regen isn't so bad at all!

[Haeso]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzZDYbVmoOg

 

Basically, these are my thoughts on Shadow as of 1.2

I'd love to hear your voices.

What do you think of the Shadow/Assassin?

Think we're viable? What specs are in the gutter? What isn't?

 

31/1/9 is the strongest 1v1 spec in the game. I've got every class geared and at 50 but gunslinger, nothing even touches it except sentinels with full cooldowns, I still win barring theirs being up and mine already being used ina previous fight.

 

Also arguably the strongest 1v2, and easily the strongest defending for nodes, and unlike most specs if you need additional survivability and have the gear, it actually functions with tank gear. Though I recommend keeping 70%~ surge for burst with force potency/relic/adrenal.

 

The only reason I'd ever spec anything else as a shadow is instant force lift - because as I'm guessing you've noticed the assassin/shadow force lift doesn't break on damage, it does massively reduce damage taken by the lifted target though. Between combat vanish and mind maze, plus instant force lift you can keep someone out of the fight for 16 seconds, and with FiB instead of slow time you can safely use your aoe attack when fighting near a mazed target since you can "aim" it.

 

I love the fact that KC can deal good burst, decent sustained and still guard/taunt. The other tanks have to sacrifice a lot more to be able to guard.

 

 

Xin; I can confirm force lift lasts 8 seconds in PvP from a shadow regardless of damage dealt. It also only gives 800 resolve, any other 8 second what amounts to a stun is 1600 worth of resolve and two separate stuns obviously. The only downside is it reduces the damage taken on the target significantly. Which is why I use it on healers and my group focuses someone else.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Haeso

[NeverRose]

 

You haven't done much testing with FL have you ?

Currently, I'm not sure if this is intentional, but FL sometimes does not break on damage, leading to a full 4 sec stun.

Insta-FL is like comparing it almost to polymorph from WoW. Same logic applies here if you think about it, why would your (rated) team mate hit the polymorphed target?

Not to mention, being able to stop people from such 30 yard range is more than astounding.

 

 

 

First of all "Damage will break the effect prematurely." So to the guy who said 2 sec cast FL is not breakable....Well...It is.

 

 

About the "bug" - I believe it's connected to Insta-cast force lift. Read the description, it says that after breaking it, target is incapacitated for 2 additional seconds, therefor it might appear as dmg didn't break the effect.

 

Also, I'm not 100% sure (need to test it) but I think that dots might not break it (Just like they dont break casting now).

Edited May 11, 2012 by NeverRose

[NeverRose]

31/1/9 is the strongest 1v1 spec in the game. I've got every class geared and at 50 but gunslinger, nothing even touches it except sentinels with full cooldowns, I still win barring theirs being up and mine already being used ina previous fight.

 

And that 1 infil point goes into...?

 

Xin; I can confirm force lift lasts 8 seconds in PvP from a shadow regardless of damage dealt. It also only gives 800 resolve, any other 8 second what amounts to a stun is 1600 worth of resolve and two separate stuns obviously. The only downside is it reduces the damage taken on the target significantly. Which is why I use it on healers and my group focuses someone else.

 

You sure about that? I just finished huttball on my sage alt and dmg broke it when guy was above flaming pit.