There is no fun in losing 100% of the time....

[BlueFromMoon]

Thing I love about Elder Scroll Online is its 3 faction, everyone wins sometimes.

[Humankeg]

Get better = more wins = more medals = more gear = getting better

 

What a cycle that is.

[criminalheretic]

REALLY!!!!!

 

you think it should be reversed??? quit losing... Problem /fixed

 

Valid point. This is why the Superbowl winner always gets the first pick in the draft the next year.

[TSgtSeuss]

Valid point. This is why the Superbowl winner always gets the first pick in the draft the next year.

 

That's a pretty poor comparison...

 

First off, everyone on the team gets HUGE bonuses... Plus everyone on the team gets a Superbowl ring--the ultimate gear upgrade.

 

Secondly, You would NEVER see a team intentionally tank the Superbowl so they get a higher draft pick... If you give players in an MMO better gear to tank a match, they WILL tank a match.

 

Finally, the losers in the NFL get a consolation prize for losing... They get a higher round draft pick. Just like the losers in WZs get consolation comms...

[Sharee]

If you are losing 100% of the time, then the problem is you.

 

To a certain extent, yes.

 

However consider this: If you made a junior highschool hockey team play the top NHL professional team all the time, and the junior team would lose 100% of the time, would you also say to the junior team "the problem is you"?

 

No, the problem is a matchmaking system that puts uneven opponents against each other. This normally(on a high population server) would not be a problem as the junior team would lose occassionally to the pro team, but then fight several battles against equal-skilled opponents depending on the luck of the draw.

 

On low population servers (like the OP seems to be playing on) however the PUG is forced to fight the premade all the time simply because there are no other opponents to fight but that premade. And this will keep happening until they implement cross-server queues.

[criminalheretic]

Game is dead no worries. Guild of 100+ active players is now down to 7. Its over, forget winning and losing just play D3/Tera...BW is too slow and there is no hope.

 

In my book, BW is the biggest failure ever. This game had so much promise but:

 

1) they cant balance factions for ****;

2) they cant balance classes for anything, in fact, they have gone backwards;

3) Ilum was a massive fiasco;

4) pve is a ****ign joke, and boring;

5) severs are dead;

6) they cant perform routine maintenance without breaking ****, like the M.cube;

7) healing has no place in pvp;

8) they hand out gear and undermine prior playes effort like its candy and ya'll are three year olds;

9) the cant get crafting right and have made most obsolete or pointless;

10) the economy sucks and is basically non-existent;

11) bugs, bugs, bugs....man o'lordy have there been bugs;

12) pvp is boring as hell 1 hr wait just to have the same team of op maras and PTs, lameo;

13) lies and misdeception from the developers, always with an eye towards investors, **** players....

 

 

I could go on, but BW and GZ are HORRIBLE...im done with them forever. **** them.

 

I get the very strong impression there is nothing any game dev can do anywhere that will make you happy. Ever.

[JediKalel]

Heres an idea... make queues that are recruit level only.... make queues that are recruit - BM only... make Queues that are BM - WH only. That would actually make PvP much more balance and fun, along with making it more time balanced to get geared up... not one side gets geared out in a couple weeks while the other side stays in the same gear for months.

 

I agree that the sytem itself isnt broken per se, the sever populations are the main problem... the imp side on my server outnumbers us 3 to 1 easily and neither faction is high pop lol. From being on their side I know that same faction Queues have actually HURT the gear progression for the lower population side because the high pop faction fights themselves and intenionally throws games to gear up their buddies faster:rolleyes: Meanwhile the low pop faction only plays the high pop side because the low pop side pretty much gave up... so the low pop side gets steamrolled over and over with little chance to even get BM gear. Its become a cruel joke.

[Motoeric]

Thank you for changing the daily PVP.

 

Yet the problem behind this remains the same.

 

NO COMMENT from Bioware is even more worrying... and the problem worsen:

 

1) Better geared = more medals (THEY DO NOT SCALE................. why????)

2) The loser gets gear slower

3) The winner gets gear faster.... and the more he gets gear the MORE he gets medals (meaning more gear, etc...)

 

VICIOUS circle pattern. Recognized???

 

Losing all the time REGARDLESS if we get medals / commendation = NOT FUN.

 

I am and several others are losing interest. No comment from "official sources" DOES NOT HELP either.

 

its possible you happen to have found yourself on a server where the opposite faction is low pop and most of the active players happen to be very skilled.

 

although its more likely that you and whoever you are queueing with need to get some skill. try watching some pvp videos on youtube and seeing what those players do

[Smashbrother]

Thank you for changing the daily PVP.

 

Yet the problem behind this remains the same.

 

NO COMMENT from Bioware is even more worrying... and the problem worsen:

 

1) Better geared = more medals (THEY DO NOT SCALE................. why????)

2) The loser gets gear slower

3) The winner gets gear faster.... and the more he gets gear the MORE he gets medals (meaning more gear, etc...)

 

VICIOUS circle pattern. Recognized???

 

Losing all the time REGARDLESS if we get medals / commendation = NOT FUN.

 

I am and several others are losing interest. No comment from "official sources" DOES NOT HELP either.

 

Make a balanced premade (at least one healer and tank) and get on vent/mumble/ts. Problem solved.

[EbonFade]

Thank you for changing the daily PVP.

 

Yet the problem behind this remains the same.

 

NO COMMENT from Bioware is even more worrying... and the problem worsen:

 

1) Better geared = more medals (THEY DO NOT SCALE................. why????)

2) The loser gets gear slower

3) The winner gets gear faster.... and the more he gets gear the MORE he gets medals (meaning more gear, etc...)

 

VICIOUS circle pattern. Recognized???

(

 

This post is symptomatic of the problem with the current breed of MMORPG players. Bunch of whining babies who want everything handed out to them, as if they actually deserved any of it.

 

The whole point of competition is to win, and indeed there is typically a prize at the end. The losers aren't supposed to get the prize, it's reserved for the winning team.

 

At the end of the day, everyone in this game started with the same exact set of tools and its all about making the most of them.

 

For the complainers on the low population servers, simply put, get better. Oh and perhaps help your odds by countering their premade, with a premade of your own. It just isn't very difficult to organize, and I assure you, getting BM can be achieved in less than 2 days (at which point it comes down to skill). Stop making excuses and point the fingers at yourselves for once. Eesh!

[EbonFade]

. the imp side on my server outnumbers us 3 to 1 easily and neither faction is high pop lol. From being on their side I know that same faction Queues have actually HURT the gear progression for the lower population side because the high pop faction fights themselves and intenionally throws games to gear up their buddies faster:rolleyes: Meanwhile the low pop faction only plays the high pop side because the low pop side pretty much gave up... so the low pop side gets steamrolled over and over with little chance to even get BM gear. Its become a cruel joke.

 

This is mostly a myth. Population density actually can hurt the higher populated side, as it dilutes the talent base.

 

For instance on The Fatman (the highest populated server in the game), Republic won a good 80% of all warzones from december all the way till early April, despite being numerically disfavored by nearly 4 to 1. At the time, Imps had more bm players than we did b/c of Ilum, however the Republic players were typically more battle hardened and just better on average. Imp side had a few great guilds but they were so diluted by their numbers that it actually ended up feeding Republic a ton of wz wins.

[criminalheretic]

That's a pretty poor comparison...

 

First off, everyone on the team gets HUGE bonuses... Plus everyone on the team gets a Superbowl ring--the ultimate gear upgrade.

 

Secondly, You would NEVER see a team intentionally tank the Superbowl so they get a higher draft pick... If you give players in an MMO better gear to tank a match, they WILL tank a match.

 

Finally, the losers in the NFL get a consolation prize for losing... They get a higher round draft pick. Just like the losers in WZs get consolation comms...

 

I'm not suggesting the loser get more comms or better gear than the winning team. Frankly I'm not suggesting anything. I hit 50 with my alt on Sunday, and as of tonight I have BM everything except belt and wrist (with a WH earpiece), which at this pace I will have tomorrow night. OK, so obviously I did not lose 100% of the time like the OP is saying. But there were stretches when I would face the same premade over and over again, and literally lose 20 matches in a row. Do I want more rewards for those stretches? No. I just want to avoid them altogether. It is "unfair" that I had to lose 20 in a row? No. Was it unethical for that premade to farm us for 7 hours? No. Did they "deserve" to win? Yes. Are they probably better than us/me even without the gear or the vent? Probably.

 

All that to say, there is an environment being created where people play a game for hours at a time, and do not have ANY FUN. Separating Pugs and Premades should increase the fun for BOTH sides. Because I am going to assume anyone engaging in any manner of competitive sport or game, at least wants some measure of challenge. The only time people who think they are elite don't want to face elite competition, is when they are scared of being proven wrong.

[JediKalel]

This is mostly a myth. Population density actually can hurt the higher populated side, as it dilutes the talent base.

 

For instance on The Fatman (the highest populated server in the game), Republic won a good 80% of all warzones from december all the way till early April, despite being numerically disfavored by nearly 4 to 1. At the time, Imps had more bm players than we did b/c of Ilum, however the Republic players were typically more battle hardened and just better on average. Imp side had a few great guilds but they were so diluted by their numbers that it actually ended up feeding Republic a ton of wz wins.

 

Mostly a myth? LOL. Yeah on a high pop server it wouldnt be an issue because you actually have enough players on both sides even if one side outnumbers the other.... on low pop servers where one faction greatly outnumbers the other its definitely a problem that needs solved with server merging or cross server queues.

[EbonFade]

All that to say, there is an environment being created where people play a game for hours at a time, and do not have ANY FUN. Separating Pugs and Premades should increase the fun for BOTH sides. Because I am going to assume anyone engaging in any manner of competitive sport or game, at least wants some measure of challenge. The only time people who think they are elite don't want to face elite competition, is when they are scared of being proven wrong.

 

I actually enjoy going up against premades as a solo Q, and beating them. I have seen pug groups beat some of the very best PvP guilds in the game, so I happen to know it is very possible. I guess I just take issue with the idea that its only fun if you are winning. I happen to like losing sometimes, as it forces me to get better.

 

As for premades vs premades. Actually the current Q system tries to put them together. But if there aren't any spots, then it fills them with soloers as it should be (no one would Q as a premade if they had to wait 3 hours for a battle)

[Zintiel]

Yet the problem behind this remains the same.

 

This is what I've been saying.

The 'Lose 6 games a day' doesn't help people who lose all the time.

 

I win about half to one third of the games I join and I still think this daily is just WRONG.

[EbonFade]

Mostly a myth? LOL. Yeah on a high pop server it wouldnt be an issue because you actually have enough players on both sides even if one side outnumbers the other.... on low pop servers where one faction greatly outnumbers the other its definitely a problem that needs solved with server merging or cross server queues.

 

You still aren't making any sense dude. Why exactly does the higher populated side steamroll the lower populated one in wzs? You claim that people throw matches to gear their buddies, but well that doesn't make any sense (firstly b/c there isn't much of a difference between winning and losing comm wise) and second it actually stunts your own growth, so why would you do that? =/

 

Simple counterexample.. Assume there are 8 pros on the pub side of a server, and they go up against 8 pros and 100 scrubs on the imperial side. Clearly the 8 pros will always play together, and pretty much win every single game whereas you have ridiculously long odds to get all the imperial pros into the same match.

[JediKalel]

You still aren't making any sense dude. Why exactly does the higher populated side steamroll the lower populated one in wzs? You claim that people throw matches to gear their buddies, but well that doesn't make any sense (firstly b/c there isn't much of a difference between winning and losing comm wise) and second it actually stunts your own growth, so why would you do that? =/

 

Simple counterexample.. Assume there are 8 pros on the pub side of a server, and they go up against 8 pros and 100 scrubs on the imperial side. Clearly the 8 pros will always play together, and pretty much win every single game whereas you have ridiculously long odds to get all the imperial pros into the same match.

 

Its called a guild that PvP's..... they get 1 group geared, then gear the 2nd group, then the 3rd.... no different than gearing your ops groups for PvE.

 

There is a huge difference in comms for winning / losing especially if you get the weekly (and before now the 3 win daily) with no effort because you are "fighting" your own guild who is letting you win to get you gear. I have toons on both sides of my sever and I've seen them do it, the already geared group loses nothing while their guild buddies they let win get geared up.... not a hard concept to grasp really.

 

Now you have 16 people on the high pop side all WH geared all in the same guild constantly queueing against PUG groups of recruit / BM geared low pop faction that only has maybe 10 people who actively PvP because theres generally about 20 people max on fleet on the low pop side versus 60 on the high pop side.

 

See the problem yet?

 

 

I already said its the server pop thats the probelm, not the rewards system... croos server queues or merge servers because the non high pop servers have no PvP balance whatsoever.

[cupofwater]

100% of the time, meaning you have never won one game?

 

I hit 50 4 days ago, geared up, and joined a nice pvp guild after rerolling. Today we maybe lost 1-2 games out of 14-15. After 4 days of being 50 I now almost have full BM including my warhero mainhand (saved up ranked comms pre 50). I did not know one person in the guild before joining but happened to get picked up after playing well in a few warzones.

What do you want bioware to do? Play your class for you so you can win? Automatically queue you with the best possible team?

 

If you want to start winning you need to do something about it. It's not like other players have any other advantage over you besides more time to play. PRO TIP: meet some people. This is an MMO after all. Find a group, even if they are undergeared and work to get better as a group.

 

For the record my reroll character was a pyrotech merc.

[criminalheretic]

I actually enjoy going up against premades as a solo Q, and beating them. I have seen pug groups beat some of the very best PvP guilds in the game, so I happen to know it is very possible. I guess I just take issue with the idea that its only fun if you are winning. I happen to like losing sometimes, as it forces me to get better.

 

As for premades vs premades. Actually the current Q system tries to put them together. But if there aren't any spots, then it fills them with soloers as it should be (no one would Q as a premade if they had to wait 3 hours for a battle)

 

Not saying it is only fun if you are winning, in fact I can say I would rather lose a close match then dominate some baddies, neither am I saying that I have never beaten a premade as part of a PuG, I have, albeit maybe 4 times total. What I am saying is that it is no fun if you are losing for hours and hours straight.

 

Parity. It's something they strive for in every major sport or competitive endeavor. Just saying they need to start striving for it in SWTOR PVP.

 

As for premades not queuing if it takes them 3 hours, then I guess they would have to break down and queue solo. They have that option. Some of us don't have the option of queuing premade, and by some I mean the majority of us, at least not with people we know, which is where the biggest disparity comes from. Are all premades invincible? No. But all teams that feel invincible, are premades.

 

Maybe this is a philosophical distinction, but the great thing about an MMO is that you are ABLE to play with your friends. You shouldn't be FORCED to, to make the game enjoyable.

Edited May 10, 2012 by criminalheretic

[Vales]

I play WZ's in groups and solo, and on both factions. On all 4 scenarios I don't have issues winning. Don't win all the time, but I certainly don't lose 100% of the time.

The problem is with you, not with the game.

 

The problem is mainly tied to population. The more crass the difference, the more premdades you face and the more you tend to lose. Even if the premade are often bad/medicore, TS alone is a huge advantage.

[sensiblepoast]

That's a pretty poor comparison...

 

First off, everyone on the team gets HUGE bonuses... Plus everyone on the team gets a Superbowl ring--the ultimate gear upgrade

 

A ring does not make you a better player or tougher on the field. It is purely cosmetic.

[Odahviin]

Thank you for changing the daily PVP.

 

Yet the problem behind this remains the same.

 

NO COMMENT from Bioware is even more worrying... and the problem worsen:

 

1) Better geared = more medals (THEY DO NOT SCALE................. why????)

2) The loser gets gear slower

3) The winner gets gear faster.... and the more he gets gear the MORE he gets medals (meaning more gear, etc...)

 

VICIOUS circle pattern. Recognized???

 

Losing all the time REGARDLESS if we get medals / commendation = NOT FUN.

 

I am and several others are losing interest. No comment from "official sources" DOES NOT HELP either.

 

-.-

 

it surely is a sad day when we reward losers.

 

why don't we all stop pvpin and play checkers instead?

 

oh wait.......theres a loser in that and every other competitive GAME in the world.

 

jeez

[Vales]

-.-

 

it surely is a sad day when we reward losers.

 

why don't we all stop pvpin and play checkers instead?

 

oh wait.......theres a loser in that and every other competitive GAME in the world.

 

jeez

 

Yeah, PvP should so decided by gear and not skill.

[EbonFade]

Its called a guild that PvP's..... they get 1 group geared, then gear the 2nd group, then the 3rd.... no different than gearing your ops groups for PvE.

 

There is a huge difference in comms for winning / losing especially if you get the weekly (and before now the 3 win daily) with no effort because you are "fighting" your own guild who is letting you win to get you gear. I have toons on both sides of my sever and I've seen them do it, the already geared group loses nothing while their guild buddies they let win get geared up.... not a hard concept to grasp really.

 

Now you have 16 people on the high pop side all WH geared all in the same guild constantly queueing against PUG groups of recruit / BM geared low pop faction that only has maybe 10 people who actively PvP because theres generally about 20 people max on fleet on the low pop side versus 60 on the high pop side.

 

See the problem yet?

.

 

This post is complete nonsense. It doesn't even make any sense. First of the weekly is trivial to get. I don't know anyone in the game who can't win 9 wzs in a week, and I call bs to anyone who plays this game with some regularity who claims they can't. Second of all, WH gear is only ~3% better than BM gear. Third of all, if your side has only 10 people and they were all good, you would be in the situation I explained before where your side wins a huge amount of games. Fourthly, throwing games to your own side is pretty ridiculous and far from optimal use of your guildies time.

 

So I mean, yes it does come down to how good your servers pvpers are, but that has nothing to do with population perse. If there are only 8 players on your side, and 7 of them are bad, then yes you will lose a lot of games. However if you added 1000 players to your queue that were all baddies, it wouldn't improve things in the slightest, and would actually make it a tiny bit worse statistically.

[JediKalel]

-.-

 

it surely is a sad day when we reward losers.

 

why don't we all stop pvpin and play checkers instead?

 

oh wait.......theres a loser in that and every other competitive GAME in the world.

 

jeez

 

I believe he said that it was no fun to lose every single time EVEN IF you get rewarded.... his argument is that populations are low and unbalanced on many servers, which causes one side to be steamrollers while the other is sit and spin. Its not fun to lose every single match just to get valor/comms to eventually catch up to the dominant side of your low pop server... people will and ALREADY HAVE quit PvP at all due to this on my server.