Operative Healer: getting solo'd by some classes, L2P?

[majikx]

I think there are some things you could improve.

 

First off, what is your build? I will tell you right off that you have made a mistake taking Med Shield. It rarely lasts long enough for the +15% to matter when you really need it.

 

I had mainly run a Hybrid build before 1.2, and switched to a 31pt Sawbones build when 1.2 came out with the buffs to the AoE. Recently I have switched back to a Hybrid build for a bit extra survivability and damage.

 

ScrapBones

 

I lose the AoE heal (Which is an Energy Hog, but useful for healing your group while getting focused) and +30% crit healing bonus for Underworld Medicine. The thing is, Underworld Medicine great...if you are allowed to freecast. Against the teams that are allowing you to freecast, you will probably win anyway. What you gain is decent damage and basically a 100+ hps self HoT in Suprise Comeback. I honestly feel like I can solo any class (except another healer), but not necessarily any player. I don't have many issues with Maraders and TankSins, but a Concealment Operative can wreck me when they catch me mid fight.

 

The advise about LoS is very good. I never stop moving except to cast XS Flyby or Underworld Medicine if I can LoS /stun the DPS on me. Use Triage to clear most snares, keep HoTs rolling and spam Emergency Medpack. Keep Escape for when you are stunned at low health. When a Sniper or Bounty Hunter targets you, and you cant LoS right away, Dodge.

 

Having Bio and reusable Medpacks help alot. You can use regular medpacks, but having a reusable means you do not have to decide if surviving is worth the cost of a medpack. Same thing with Stims and Adrenals. I have a Endurance Stim I use on Defense or if I am getting focused alot, and a Cunning Stim for Offense or if I am not being targeted as much.

 

Don't be afraid to use your DPS. You have some okay DPS to help finish off a target. Don't forget Sabotage Charge and if at range Charged Burst. Charged Burst is pretty costly in energy, but more then a few times, Sabotage Charge/Charged Burst spamming have taken down a ball carrier that knocked me off the ramps. XS flyby can rack up some damage as well if they are stunned and can not move out of the field.

 

In solo situations, starting with Shoot First, Blaster Whip and Backblast will put a bit of a dent in someone, while Sedatives will give you a window of reduced incoming damage. LoS and stun to stack HoTs or use Underworld Medicine.

 

There was a great video of a Hybrid ranked 96? that shows how successful a Scrapbones can be one on one. If you can find it, check it out. Very good player.

 

I normally end WZs taking about 25% more damage then the next highest person, but at a fairly low death to damage taken rate. The class is very survivable, although vs some teams you may spend more time tanking the enemies DPS then healing others. Still, that is damage your teammates are not taking. DPS output is not great, but a few GCDs of damage to help focus someone down may save many GCDs of healing.

 

Sorry if I rambled a bit. I am not the best player out there, but hopefully something in here helped

 

interesting build might have to try it out. however think i will take the 2 points out of the the improved blaster whip to get the fight or flight talent.

[JayPres]

When I switch to heals it's pretty simple.

 

It's situational awareness though. I have a couple of rules for myself when healing:

 

- Always keep KP going on myself

- Pop stim boost for energy regen

- Never stand in one place for more than a few seconds. Move counter clockwise (seriously)

- Start your CC cycle with sever tendon before debilitate/flash bang. Creating a gap reduces damage no matter the class.

- Stay near your DPS, not your tanks, they will keep you up if you keep them up

 

 

Just win baby.

[Gidoru]

You're probably doing it wrong. As an Assassin i can solo most healing ops, but it takes quite a while. The bad ones drop pretty quickly however.

 

Basically you need to use your slows and dispels to kite and in conjunction with your CC's it should be very difficult for any melee to solo you in any short period of time.

 

As for a DPS class not being able to take down a healer solo, they should be able to do so, but not quickly. If a healer can easily out heal dps then healing becomes too powerful. When you consider things like taunt and guard drastically reducing damage on healers, the former being useable by DPS specs as well, healing would be way too powerful.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Gidoru

[Reenolols]

To answer your original question; yes, l2p. Op healers shouldn't even die to 2 dps unless the dps are very coordinated. Your snare, stun, mez, vanish, evasion, shield, 1200 hot tics, surgical spam... Using relics/adrenals when needed for big heals. So many tools and kiting ability, no one solo should be able to take you down.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I have a few problems with this post, though the reason is because your entire argument hinges on an assumption that I disagree with:

 

Now my take on PvP healers is they should be able to stay up against any class 1 on 1.

 

No.

 

Healers are healers, not Tanks. If you can survive 1 on 1 with any class then why do we need Tanks? Why do we need a Tank protecting you if you can handle it? No.

 

Healers need Tanks to keep them alive.

DPS needs healers to stay alive for long. (Especially since DPS gets focus fired the second they touch a healer in good groups.)

Tanks need DPS because they lack damage.

 

Healers are not the most powerful class in the game nor should they be.

[JayPres]

I have a few problems with this post, though the reason is because your entire argument hinges on an assumption that I disagree with:

 

 

 

No.

 

Healers are healers, not Tanks. If you can survive 1 on 1 with any class then why do we need Tanks? Why do we need a Tank protecting you if you can handle it? No.

 

Healers need Tanks to keep them alive.

DPS needs healers to stay alive for long. (Especially since DPS gets focus fired the second they touch a healer in good groups.)

Tanks need DPS because they lack damage.

 

Healers are not the most powerful class in the game nor should they be.

 

I have a few problems with this post.

 

The topic of discussion is survivability and you are presenting the age old rock/paper/scissors technique for balance.

 

Healers survive by healing. Tanks survive through attrition. DPS survives through powerful attacks.

 

But what happens when a healer can stun you, disappear, AND hit your for 2k dmg?

What happens when a tank can crit multiple targets for 5k dmg?

What happens when dps toons can throw up a defensive cooldown that limits all dmg intake?

 

Someone that is healing themselves to stay alive is a reduced threat, not because they are dead, but because their skill set is now introverted.

[Antipodes]

One thing that improved my game significantly was realizing how important the 2s cast is. As a resto druid, the general response is to HoT someone up fully then throw cast heals in emergencies. The problem is, HoTs in this game are not all that strong or inexpensive (isn't it slow release < 2k over 18 seconds?). I find it generally better to switch to cast heals much earlier. The guaranteed upper hand buffs are great if you get into a bind later on.

 

Powertechs do insane amounts of damage, but I can keep myself up against most other classes. If there are 2 or more DPS on me or worse, it gets really rough and there are times when I can die stupidly fast.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

The best thing is to try and control your cc's and interrupt their burst, especially using it when you see them pop any cd's. Also 1v1 don't forget vanish/tranq works great especially if they already used their cc breaker. Make sure you are specced to get the extra 15% to heals when your shield is up, works great. I have mine set right next to my med pack, so when I am getting burst down I pop my shield and med pack at the same time, helps a lot.

 

As far as winning against 1v1, its possible but way too time consuming. Its better to try and run back to the group and get your team mates to kill them. If you are away from the group just dealing with one enemy, you aren't really helping your team out.

 

And don't let the trolls get to you, even though scoundrel/ops are the "best" healers currently, it still takes time to get things wired out where you are successful. Keep playing and healing, you'll figure it out.

[Caelrie]

To answer your original question; yes, l2p. Op healers shouldn't even die to 2 dps unless the dps are very coordinated. Your snare, stun, mez, vanish, evasion, shield, 1200 hot tics, surgical spam... Using relics/adrenals when needed for big heals. So many tools and kiting ability, no one solo should be able to take you down.

 

Let's see some videos of you doing that with your operative.

[KBSIP]

Operatives healers are a hard counter to powertechs, specifically pyros (the most popular). if you're losing to them, assuming gear to be equal, your skill or knowledge of class mechanics is lacking. The mechanics are easy to brush up on, and for PVP tips on your class I recommend your AC forum.

[glenbruton]

If you are just trying to outheal a DPS while standing there..... but I cant imagine your doing that. I'd suggest a tank friend a tank+healer guard combo is very nice!

[Bazzoong]

Right, switched to healing on my Operative. I am used to healing in PvP coming from a Disc Priest in WoW (which I appreciate won't mean a lot to those who never have played it!) Anyway my Op has 1164 Expertise and full BM gear with 15040hp unbuffed, no Hero gear yet.

 

In PvP against some classes as a healer I can stay up, might dip low but spam heals usually solves the problem during those intense moments where I feel the DPS is blowing cd's to nuke me down. I dispel whenever I need to and use my cooldowns whenever I need to. Now my take on PvP healers is they should be able to stay up against any class 1 on 1. Because if they didn't there would never be healers in PvP such is the focus they get.

 

The problem I have is Assassins/Shadows, Sents/Mara's, and some Trooper/BH specs utterly destroy me 1 on 1 when I am starting with full health, cc breaker free, and defensive cooldowns up and ready. No matter what I do I cannot last more than 8-10 secs before they completely overcome my HoT's, healing and escape tools. What gives?

 

Is the burst or damage of these classes too high? This is when I end up on those 1 v 1 fights when I am singled out and chased across the entire warzone. Its not spammage from 3 diferent players focusing me down - I dont expect to live more thn 5 secs when that happens. Or is it L2P on my part? Quite happy to concede that fact, but what can I do against these classes 1 on 1 when I do nothing but spam heal and try to stay alive?

 

If the burst of these classes is too high with 1164 Expertise then PvP is really F***** UP. I even have damage reducing talents (-4% from Chem-resistant Inlays) and +9% to self healing (Survival Training 3/3) plus 15% more healing on top of that when a defensive cooldown is up (Med Shield 2/2). What can I do?

 

Ok, first of 15040 hp in full bm seems very low, you are probably are running a "pve" spec. check the operative forum and go a few pages back there is a lot of really good info there it is just spread out and you will have to search a bit.

2ndly stop thinking like a "disc priest" thing like a "resto druid" in "wrath", your main focus should be to stop **** BEFORE it happens. Play REALLY aggressive with cc.

3rdly except for maybe marauders you can beat any class 1v1 by outlasting them, against pyros it is about denying the detonator rail shot combo, dispel double dots, use evasion wisely (stuff like railshot and masterstrike gets countered go figure).

Last but not least, get rid of the wow healer mind set, you are not there to tank damage dealers over longer periods, you have to beat them with clever positioning and actively countering their high damage moves.

 

Operative medics are the best pvp healers at the moment, and medic hybrids are the "top of the 1v1 food chain" now. So no excuses get your head into the game.

[Girltank]

Haven't played an OP to cap so all I can really say is that I know a good gunslinger in decent gear (BM) who rage quit because he couldn't dps down an OP with help (2v 1 not in the OPs favor) in the middle of freakin nowhere. He's a gunslinger who routinely wastes OP maruaders (to include skilled and better geared ones).

[Zhaker]

ANY Good DPS can 1v1 healer.

 

A Healer isnt supposed to survive a fight. I dont know why people think Healers > DPS.

 

Seriously, this is the wrong mentality, they're there to just do quick patches and to sustain their life to turn the tide of the battle. Not be able to heal themselves like a tank, otherwise who needs a tank for PvE? They just heal themsleves for PvE content and win.

[Caelrie]

ANY Good DPS can 1v1 healer.

 

A Healer isnt supposed to survive a fight. I dont know why people think Healers > DPS.

 

Seriously, this is the wrong mentality, they're there to just do quick patches and to sustain their life to turn the tide of the battle. Not be able to heal themselves like a tank, otherwise who needs a tank for PvE? They just heal themsleves for PvE content and win.

 

In your model of the game, your team is weaker for every healer you bring with you. Better off bringing more DPS.

[khouj]

Healers should do a bare minimum 110% a dps classes sustained damage as heals. More like 125% to be real. This is a pretty obvious and basic concept.

[Bazzoong]

Healers should do a bare minimum 110% a dps classes sustained damage as heals. More like 125% to be real. This is a pretty obvious and basic concept.

 

If you increase my sustained damage or lower the healing output in this game to your formula, all healers will be screwed.

 

You have have no idea about the numbers in this game, sorry.

[alcek]

You can't los the insane bleeds ticking on you from the sentinel/marauder that managed to stay on you for 2-3 seconds /as they claim they are kited badly, which isn't true, but anyway/. Some classes need toning down.

My experience shows that well played operative healer is very, very hard to be taken down. So you definitely have room for improvement. Run a lot. Confuse the enemies. Also using los to classes without dots, and ranged classes.

[khouj]

If you increase my sustained damage or lower the healing output in this game to your formula, all healers will be screwed.

 

You have have no idea about the numbers in this game, sorry.

wat..

[BoMbY]

As far as I can tell, it's very hard to solo kill an operative skilled with Surgical Probe and Surgical Precision (free instant heal without cooldown when under 30% health), unless he screws up, or you can hit him for the last 30% in one cooldown, or CC him long enough.

[willyshoot]

To the Op... keep those TA's up.... don't be wasting them early on + 15% . Toxic scan with a heal is sweet.. keep it rolling. You KNOW you are going to be stunned at some stage so be prepared.

 

To the others saying the can survive 2v1's.. well.. yes you can.. I have survived 4v1.. but I have also been wasted by 2 in under one stun. It depends on the quality you are facing. If you have 2 on you and one stuns you - you can't break it as you will be instantly re stunned. So you have to soak up 4s of damage and 8.5k damage from each is easily achievable in 4s.

[BoMbY]

I just found that: Sang's Operative PvP Healing Guide. Seems quite useful.

[Malanoth]

Thanks guys for the [mostly] civil feedback. Just to answer a few questions my build is 33/3/5 at the moment (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MffrzGoRdsZ0cZG.1) but I do play about with it, sometimes opting for slightly less damage mitigation but more run speed by taking 3/3 Infiltrator. I have mixed feelings about that, preferring the max damage reduction/healing possible at the cost of poorer stealth/runspeed.

 

I do not expect to take down a DPS 1v1 as a healer as someone suggested. What I do expect is with the current model of healing is to be able to stay up against ANY dps class 1v1. I am focussed the minute the gates open in PvP as a healer so I should be able to hold my own relatively easily (without being a complete klutz) against any lone DPS class. The second I get 2 or 3 dps on me then yes I expect to not survive for very long with my own team not helping with guards and peels. Some classes seem to be able to overcome my own spam self-healing considering the talents I take to boost healing/damage mitigation and my current level of Expertise. This is why i think some classes have either too much burst, too many counters or a combination of both. Do I play bad against these classes? Of course from time to time I will make mistakes, you know they crucified the last perfect person, but I feel I play pretty well in general - I do most of the things that have already been mentioned in this thread, but the moment I am a cooldown short thats it. Now in group PvP and minus cooldowns then of course I expect to be weaker, but I am talking about those 1 on 1 skirmishes where it becomes Healer v DPS. I would expect with the current healing model to be able to stay up 1v1 even without cooldowns, as long as I play intelligently.

 

This is because PvP healers must be able to take some punishment in PvP as they are the No1 focus of any competitve PvP match. Against some classes it simply doesn't happen like that and my healing is overcome in 8-10 seconds.

 

This does not mean there is no room for improvement because there is and I already break down my fights thinking, how could I have done that better? I just get the feeling from playing that in general some classes burst and ability to shut down a healer is a just a little too good. And spamming Surgical Probe sub 30% is okay and all but boy that 1.5s GCD feels like an eternity and most DPS know that if your are spamming SP sub 30% they have to shut you down so thats when the stun also comes.

 

I will keep practicing though.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Malanoth

[ProfessorWalsh]

What I do expect is with the current model of healing is to be able to stay up against ANY dps class 1v1

 

Then change your expectations.

 

Also, you can, when you have a Tank. That is the entire point of the Tank.

 

What you are saying is this:

 

"It should have to require two DPS classes to take down one healer."

 

And we actually had that. It was called pre-1.2.

 

You generally needed to get really lucky, or have help to take down a healer.

 

Do you know what happened?

 

Teams containing 4-5 healers entered Warzones and were unbeatable. You couldn't kill them no matter how hard you tried. You couldn't win. You watched in disbelief as they won Warzone after Warzone because they were unkillable and they had enough CC to get caps off.

 

On my server Imperial premades were running:

 

Sorc (Healer hybrid)

Sorc (Healer hybrid)

Bounty Hunter (Tracer spam)

Bounty Hunter (Tracer spam)

Juggernaut

Bounty Hunter (Healer)

Bounty Hunter (Healer)

Sorc (Healer)

 

Between AoE's preventing caps (at the time) and the fact that the entire enemy team was unkillable games came down to literally eternal stalemates and a game of "whoever brought the most healers wins" in the end.

 

This was bad for the game.

 

DPS must be able to kill Healers. Preferably 1 on 1. 1 DPS shouldn't be able to kill a healer if the healer has a tank though.

 

Healers can shut DPS down and escape, stopping the DPS from doing anything, but in your model DPS become second class citizens and arguably the weakest class in the game for PVP while Tanks become a moot point.

Edited May 10, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh