Most Boring OP AC : Pyro PT

[MinguesDew]

Goes with my other arguement:

4m = 100% dps

10m = 80% dps

30m = 20-30% dps

Goes with the classic argument dead DPS=no DPS.

 

This isn't PvE, maximizing damage is only important when going for a kill and WZs are actually won with objectives...

 

I can't count the number of times I've come to a badly zerged door in voidstar and hung back hitting people on the door while reinforcements spawn/arrive; had I rushed in to melee I would be waiting to rez with my teammates.

 

I also can't count how many times I've harassed/supported my team from above in huttball putting me in the right spot for a fastbreak or alley-oop score.

 

Can't count how many times in civil war I fought away from the turret we're trying to cap so I can grapple+stun+snare the last guy to die/first guy to fly back while a teammate caps. Same deal for NC.

 

If winning the WZ is wrong I don't want to be right.

 

Our ranged DPS does suck there is no doubt about that, but DPS isn't everything, we have relatively little utility, most of that utility is usable at range and being able to hit people from range (burst at that, we just have no sustain at range) is one of the better aspects of our utility.

 

It is very satisfying to harass a guarded healer so they can't heal while the tank they are healing gets low and then proc yourself another railshot, stun the healer, and turn to finish off the tank at range.

 

If you fail to take advantage of having a 30yard range on most of our abilities you're doing it wrong.

Edited May 9, 2012 by MinguesDew

[pwnshoppe]

Here are ways to beat a PT:

 

1) Cleanse. Its on a 7 sec cooldown I know, but if you do this even once, it will screw up my ammo management and I wont be able to High Impact bolt until I reapply a dot.

2) Be a shadow and use your yellow damage immunity You should be able to kill me before it expires.

3) Be a stealth class. Any stealth class that gets the jump on my Vanguard will win if they don't screw up.

4) Use Damage reduction talents at the right time. Here is a hint, count to 2 after you have assault plastique (grenade) on you and then use your cooldowns. Every pro vanguard times their damage to hit at the moment the grenade blows up. Shadows/Scoundrels/Sages and Marauders all have the power to go immune for 2 seconds or more, if you do this at the right moment, its a guaranteed win.

5) Stay at > 10 m range. As previously stated vanguards do really really bad damage at range. This is a useful strat if I catch you off-guard or with your stuff on cooldown.

[DweezillKagemand]

Please look about how the Pyro spec works. A Pyro is required to close the range, otherwise he will a.) heatstarve b.) do not anything in significant damage ways.

A Pyro can OPEN on 30m, after that he must close the range or he stands no chance to win.

 

Like pwnshope said we need to be at 10m and sometimes switch to 4. You call his arguments invalid? You don't even have any arguments...

 

Firstly, I fail to see how hitting auto attack to proc a dot so you can use Railshot is going to starve you of heat.

 

Secondly this dot snares, so if you're getting kited around by someone on Pyrotech, you are pretty bad.

 

So complaining about not having a gap closer is balls.

Edited May 9, 2012 by DweezillKagemand

[pwnshoppe]

Goes with the classic argument dead DPS=no DPS.

 

This isn't PvE, maximizing damage is only important when going for a kill and WZs are actually won with objectives...

 

I can't count the number of times I've come to a badly zerged door in voidstar and hung back hitting people on the door while reinforcements spawn/arrive; had I rushed in to melee I would be waiting to rez with my teammates.

 

I also can't count how many times I've harassed/supported my team from above in huttball putting me in the right spot for a fastbreak or alley-oop score.

 

Can't count how many times in civil war I fought away from the turret we're trying to cap so I can grapple+stun+snare the last guy to die/first guy to fly back while a teammate caps. Same deal for NC.

 

If winning the WZ is wrong I don't want to be right.

 

Our ranged DPS does suck there is no doubt about that, but DPS isn't everything, we have relatively little utility, most of that utility is usable at range and being able to hit people from range (burst at that, we just have no sustain at range) is one of the better aspects of our utility.

 

It is very satisfying to harass a guarded healer so they can't heal while the tank they are healing gets low and then proc yourself another railshot, stun the healer, and turn to finish off the tank at range.

 

If you fail to take advantage of having a 30yard range on most of our abilities you're doing it wrong.

 

I actually don't play an Assault vanguard any more. It's fun to play against pugs or noobs, but it is utterly useless against competitive organized team. It takes about 1 match for a premade to learn you are rocking them, and after that, the combos of cleansing and focus marginalize the spec. If you get focused as a pyro/vanguard by an organized team you are dead before you can push your reactive shield expires lol.

[DweezillKagemand]

Here are ways to beat a PT:

 

1) Cleanse. Its on a 7 sec cooldown I know, but if you do this even once, it will screw up my ammo management and I wont be able to High Impact bolt until I reapply a dot.

2) Be a shadow and use your yellow damage immunity You should be able to kill me before it expires.

3) Be a stealth class. Any stealth class that gets the jump on my Vanguard will win if they don't screw up.

4) Use Damage reduction talents at the right time. Here is a hint, count to 2 after you have assault plastique (grenade) on you and then use your cooldowns. Every pro vanguard times their damage to hit at the moment the grenade blows up. Shadows/Scoundrels/Sages and Marauders all have the power to go immune for 2 seconds or more, if you do this at the right moment, its a guaranteed win.

5) Stay at > 10 m range. As previously stated vanguards do really really bad damage at range. This is a useful strat if I catch you off-guard or with your stuff on cooldown.

 

1) Flame Burst doesn't even have a cooldown and costs like 2 Ammo, thats hardly going to screw you over. You'll have plenty on time in that 7 seconds to get that and Railshot off.

3) Except for stealth scan and the ability to pretty much see any stealthers being all sneaky, if you have the detection talent it makes stealth even more of a joke. Also, there is no way an operative will beat a good pyrotech. It isn't happening.

5) GL with that, considering firstly they can grapple you. Secondly, if they are any good at Pyro, you'll be perma snared - so trying to run out of the 10m range is a pain.

Edited May 9, 2012 by DweezillKagemand

[pwnshoppe]

1) Flame Burst doesn't even have a cooldown and costs like 2 Ammo, thats hardly going to screw you over. You'll have plenty on time in that 7 seconds to get that and Railshot off.

3) Except for stealth scan and the ability to pretty much see any stealthers being all sneaky. Also, there is no way an operative will beat a good pyrotech. It isn't happening.

5) GL with that, considering firstly they can grapple you. Secondly, if they are any good at Pyro, you'll be perma snared.

 

Lol, are you not attacking them in the mean time? This sounds like it's coming from the perspective of someone trying to just run away...

 

What class are you playing? Are you using your cooldowns to increase stealth? Are you not sprinting away and humping pillars? Do you not have any damage reduction skills?

 

It's starting to sound like a skill issue?

 

Also, if you think 2 ammo isn't a big deal and basically making the PT waste 2 globals, then I'd suspect you aren't playing competitive pvp. That can fly against a pug, but not in the big leagues.

Edited May 9, 2012 by pwnshoppe

[Sowwy]

Goes with the classic argument dead DPS=no DPS.

 

This isn't PvE, maximizing damage is only important when going for a kill and WZs are actually won with objectives....

 

If you fail to take advantage of having a 30yard range on most of our abilities you're doing it wrong.

 

 

Here's a smart pvper.

[DweezillKagemand]

Lol, are you not attacking them in the mean time? This sounds like it's coming from the perspective of someone trying to just run away...

 

What class are you playing? Are you using your cooldowns to increase stealth? Are you not sprinting away and humping pillars? Do you not have any damage reduction skills?

 

It's starting to sound like a skill issue?

 

Also, if you think 2 ammo isn't a big deal and basically making the PT waste 2 globals, then I'd suspect you aren't playing competitive pvp. That can fly against a pug, but not in the big leagues.

 

It has a 1 minute cooldown.

 

Also, I play healer.

 

You play the easiest class in the game, you can't insult anyone's skill lol.

 

Railshot isn't a wasted GCD son. Oh, you don't use railshot in the big leagues? Keep convincing yourself you're good son.

[gundamemo]

Shadows have better survivability than PTs do in any spec (In regards to cooldowns). DPS Shadows, in a 1v1 actually are a bit better if they use Force Shroud offensively. In a group drawn out setting though a DPS PT will shine by having a bit more base mitigation and some longer duration cooldowns (even if they don't mitigate as much it makes it easier when having a pocket healer)

 

Juggs need help in the Immortal Tree, I think most people will admit that. A Vengence Jugg *can* shut down a PT DPS due to control and lack of being able to be stunned/cc'd etc after a charge which is easy for them to pull off. PT Shield tree needs some help as well since minus a Jet Charge and a root gimmick to grapple, has endless talents built around shielding which well, does nothing in PvP. They don't have the self healing or cooldowns Juggs or Sins have that are within that tree.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

There are better 1v1 class for sure but pyro will still come out on top at the end of warzone.

 

Shadow is way too squishy and must be in melee range... everyone will kill them in group setting because how squishy they are.

 

1v1 I don't usually have problem against them... remember pyro have talented passive stealth detection so I see them half the time in stealth.

 

Shadow is again one of those one trick pony.

 

Usually it goes like : adrenal in stealth, pop out, hit you 2x (to get that buff for rock thing), rock throw (both crit) and force shroud and execute when you are less than 30% hp (which you usually are pretty close to it)

 

Just potion after they open on you, energy shield... WAIT for force shroud or wait it out.... and unload your combo and burst them down while kiting them (with your ensnare on flame burst) They already used up their combo and are low on force to do it again in short period of time, you can out burst them.

 

Sure Vengence jug and marauder can beat you 1v1, but they need to pop all their cooldown to do so... I usually just camp them after and ruin their day.

 

Just do your combo from 30 meters and bait their charge... you can kite them and perma-ensnare them or do your 2 stuns in which to do your damage combo while their stun require them to channel it. (wait out vengence charge buff)

 

Remember you are dealing damage to them from 30 meters away while they are doing none.

[LancelotOC]

Does anyone honestly have an issue about being pulled by a PT after they have been attacked so much that their resolve is full? I think everyone would be ok with PT pull not being effected by full resolve as by the time you are full resolve you are a sliver of health away from death.

 

People issue seems more to do with being full health and being snared by a tech snare than can only be cleaned by an OP/Scoundrel and then immediatly dying to the AE because they cant get away. Then being pulled if they do get somewhat away and survive the railshot since snares and massive damage doesnt build resolve.

 

Another supposed melee class that can't be kited and with it's gap closer that is always at range... with ranged abilities that have more damage than ranged classes and everything on instas that cant be interupted. GG BW.

 

Please BW, for sanity's sake, make a public announcement that there are no ranged or melee classes in your designs so people can stop using this non-existant argument as a justification for their mitigation abilties. Just classes that do a lot of burst damage and have great mitigation and classes that do great sustained damage, if they can somehow survive the burst, with little mitigation. Please tell them range is just an illusion.

[pwnshoppe]

It has a 1 minute cooldown.

 

Also, I play healer.

 

You play the easiest class in the game, you can't insult anyone's skill lol.

 

Railshot isn't a wasted GCD son. Oh, you don't use railshot in the big leagues? Keep convincing yourself you're good son.

 

Thanks dad.

 

If you are a merc, then sorry you will die, 1.2 messed up your resources and I'm sorry for that. Cleansing helps, I won't be able to kill you during reactive shield, but you will eventually die.

 

If you are a sorc, sprint away, cleans and heal. Hump a pillar and you will live forever against a vanguard.

 

If you are an op, cleans+ use dodge after I apply thermal detonator. Keep hots rolling and hump a pillar, you won't die.

[Ich_Bin]

There is no class that can kill me quicker than a Pyrotech Powertech. And as the OP rightly explained, they can do it from a large distance.

A Marauder on the other hand does not do quite as much burst damage, but is in your face when he does it.

 

I think this explains why most people that don't pay close attention view Marauders as "overpowered" but don't complain about Pyrotech PTs.

[DweezillKagemand]

Thanks dad.

 

If you are a merc, then sorry you will die, 1.2 messed up your resources and I'm sorry for that. Cleansing helps, I won't be able to kill you during reactive shield, but you will eventually die.

 

If you are a sorc, sprint away, cleans and heal. Hump a pillar and you will live forever against a vanguard.

 

If you are an op, cleans+ use dodge after I apply thermal detonator. Keep hots rolling and hump a pillar, you won't die.

 

HOTs really aren't enough to keep you up against a Vanguard tbqh. One that's constantly rolling the DPS and procing those railshots (since cleanse has a 4.5 second CD) you can Flameburst and Railshot and Rocket Punch in that time. Plus, TA doesn't proc quickly enough for me to keep applying surgical probe and at 30% health, your dot's tick for like 1k on crits and since the damage from the DoT is applied over 6 seconds, thats enough time for it to tick for a good amount.

 

Lets not even go into interrupts and how casting with a VG on you is impossible. You must play with some rubbish Vanguards if they can't kill a healer easily.

 

Np Son.

Edited May 9, 2012 by DweezillKagemand

[Vales]

Not that I didn't agree with the fact that PTs are way OP and most the points you made, but....

 

Orbital strike > Death from Above.

 

Orbital strike with a 2 pc sniper bonus gives you a 12 sec "set it and forget it" aoe, which is great for keeping ppl off objectives for a long period of time whether you're cced, dead, or in range. On top of that, it hits like a truck. I routinely get 3k+ crits.

 

Besides that, I think a buffed smash from a rage marauder/jugg would be the best AOE in the game if you're talking pure burst from 1 hit.

 

Cool, Tremor ticks for 300. :/

[exphryl]

There is no class that can kill me quicker than a Pyrotech Powertech. And as the OP rightly explained, they can do it from a large distance.

A Marauder on the other hand does not do quite as much burst damage, but is in your face when he does it.

 

I think this explains why most people that don't pay close attention view Marauders as "overpowered" but don't complain about Pyrotech PTs.

 

I'd wager more people have issues with a Marauder's defensive cooldowns over their damage.

[pwnshoppe]

HOTs really aren't enough to keep you up against a Vanguard tbqh. One that's constantly rolling the DPS and procing those railshots (since cleanse has a 4.5 second CD) you can Flameburst and Railshot and Rocket Punch in that time. Plus, TA doesn't proc quickly enough for me to keep applying surgical probe and at 30% health, your dot's tick for like 1k on crits.

 

Lets not even go into interrupts and how casting with a VG on you is impossible. You must play with some rubbish Vanguards if they can't kill a healer easily.

 

Np Son.

 

Dad,

 

Practice pillar humping, and just know our interrupt is on an 8 sec cooldown. You have 2 heals that require a cast, and can keep 3 dots on yourself, plus free instant heals. Combine this with juke casting and you should always have at least 1 heal up. Use tendon blast and nutshot (or whatever its called) and your flashbang thingy and youll be good to go. If things get hairy, slip away and pop a medpac + recuperate.

 

Keep in mind, geared healing ops should be able to outlive anyone in a 1v1 always.

[DweezillKagemand]

Dad,

 

Practice pillar humping, and just know our interrupt is on an 8 sec cooldown. You have 2 heals that require a cast, and can keep 3 dots on yourself, plus free instant heals. Combine this with juke casting and you should always have at least 1 heal up. Use tendon blast and nutshot (or whatever its called) and your flashbang thingy and youll be good to go. If things get hairy, slip away and pop a medpac + recuperate.

 

Keep in mind, geared healing ops should be able to outlive anyone in a 1v1 always.

 

Son,

 

Its 2 dots! - and those spray-painting probes aren't really for healing, more for padding stats and proccing TA. Instant free heal requires TA and I pretty routinely hump those pillars. Unless some bad damages him and he continues to fan me with full resolve. Vanish's CD is like 2 and half minutes, so it's not up every fight.

 

Except dem marauders!

[MinguesDew]

I actually don't play an Assault vanguard any more. It's fun to play against pugs or noobs, but it is utterly useless against competitive organized team. It takes about 1 match for a premade to learn you are rocking them, and after that, the combos of cleansing and focus marginalize the spec. If you get focused as a pyro/vanguard by an organized team you are dead before you can push your reactive shield expires lol.

I didn't realize you could stack dodge on the forums.

 

I get marked all the time, when that happens you take advantage of that 30m range you're so quick to dismiss, hang with the healers, let them come to you, get heals, keep the healer alive, kite people behind LOS and blow them up. Our other specs are so much worse vs groups the exception would be if you're in a group that needs a guard or a ball carrier/floater (AP).

 

Most specs are useless when you play like a tunnel vision tool (this is why people hate marauders, they can tunnel vision and still do well)... with a bit of support we can survive and kite ok (you just have to be properly positioned, something you can do with a 30m range). PvP tanking while highly under appreciated is exceedingly useful. I can't count (really I can't) how many times I've blown all my defensive cooldowns, busted out a grenade and kited a bunch of tunnel visioners around a post while I get heals and in the end I'm alive and they're all dead. Did I kill them with my leet DPS? Do I care how they died?

 

You're not wrong about how to maximize DPS, you're wrong about the importance of DPS in PvP. You wanted to make up absolutes like a forum tough guy and pull numbers out of your ***** and now you're backpedaling like a noob.

[pwnshoppe]

I didn't realize you could stack dodge on the forums.

 

I get marked all the time, when that happens you take advantage of that 30m range you're so quick to dismiss, hang with the healers, let them come to you, get heals, keep the healer alive, kite people behind LOS and blow them up. Our other specs are so much worse vs groups the exception would be if you're in a group that needs a guard or a ball carrier/floater (AP).

 

Most specs are useless when you play like a tunnel vision tool (this is why people hate marauders, they can tunnel vision and still do well)... with a bit of support we can survive and kite ok (you just have to be properly positioned, something you can do with a 30m range). PvP tanking while highly under appreciated is exceedingly useful. I can't count (really I can't) how many times I've blown all my defensive cooldowns, busted out a grenade and kited a bunch of tunnel visioners around a post while I get heals and in the end I'm alive and they're all dead. Did I kill them with my leet DPS? Do I care how they died?

 

You're not wrong about how to maximize DPS, you're wrong about the importance of DPS in PvP. You wanted to make up absolutes like a forum tough guy and pull numbers out of your ***** and now you're backpedaling like a noob.

 

Not really. I play shield spec with DPS gear. It does about 10% less damage but I have more consistant damage and am far less reliant on rng. Energy-shot off global cooldown combined with a harder hitting stock-strike, lined up with storm and grenade allows you to do so much damage at the exact same moment. That combined with the fact that you take about 80% less damage, it means you actually live long enough to get heals. Plus you have storm, which is amazing. I will never go back to assault unless im just screwing around.

[exphryl]

Not really. I play shield spec with DPS gear. It does about 10% less damage

 

No. You are not 10% less damage in shield tech with DPS Gear.

[pwnshoppe]

No. You are not 10% less damage in shield tech with DPS Gear.

 

I dunno, my HiIB hits for 3K + energy shot hits for 1.8K

 

storm hits for 1.5K SS hits for 4.8K. grenade takes the big hit at doing only about 2K. ion pulse still hits for 2K.

 

These are all crit numbers too. I usually don't pay attention to non-crit.

 

Plus the fact that every time you sheild you get a free ammo, its like unlimmited ammo. The big thing is energy shot. Having an offcooldown attack that packs a punch can't be oversold. I can't count the number of times this has helped me finish off one of those pesky e-medpack spamming scoundrels. Another thing that helps the burst is that the damage from storm is so delayed that your GCD has expired by the time the server registers the storm damage. This allows you a 2GCD attack + grenade + energy shot.

 

I usually do something like this: grenade .. wait 1 sec, storm + SS + energy shot dealing about 8K damage instantaneously. It's really fun.

Edited May 9, 2012 by pwnshoppe

[exphryl]

I dunno, my HiIB hits for 3K + energy shot hits for 1.8K

 

storm hits for 1.5K SS hits for 4.8K. grenade takes the big hit at doing only about 2K. ion pulse still hits for 2K.

 

.

 

I'd be curious to see what type of targets you are getting near 5K SS's on.

[pwnshoppe]

I'd be curious to see what type of targets you are getting near 5K SS's on.

 

I'll post my logs when I get home from work.

[exphryl]

I'll post my logs when I get home from work.

 

Logs won't say anything about the other player. Well the information that would be important to see at least.

 

Considering it's Kinetic Damage (mitigated by armor) and the only thing going for it is an 8% increase +30% Crit Damage increase, I'm just having a hard time grasping that amount of damage on the attack.

 

Also for comparison sake, while PYro (assault)

 

Thermal Detonator: 2220-2285 Kinetic Damage (30% Crit Talent)

Rocket Punch: 1809-1851 Kinetic Damage (same 8% talent you'd take).

 

Sitting at 78% Surge, +523 Power, and 100% Full War Hero. 4.6K+ TDs are rare. The only thing your spec gives you is 30% increase to Stock Strike but no other damaging addons. So the only way I can see breakign 4.8K is on an undergeared Sorc or a new 50.

Edited May 9, 2012 by exphryl

[pwnshoppe]

Logs won't say anything about the other player. Well the information that would be important to see at least.

 

Considering it's Kinetic Damage (mitigated by armor) and the only thing going for it is an 8% increase +30% Crit Damage increase, I'm just having a hard time grasping that amount of damage on the attack.

 

Also for comparison sake, while PYro (assault)

 

Thermal Detonator: 2220-2285 Kinetic Damage (30% Crit Talent)

Rocket Punch: 1809-1851 Kinetic Damage (same 8% talent you'd take).

 

Sitting at 78% Surge, +523 Power, and 100% Full War Hero. 4.6K+ TDs are rare. The only thing your spec gives you is 30% increase to Stock Strike but no other damaging addons. So the only way I can see breakign 4.8K is on an undergeared Sorc or a new 50.

 

You are right, I took another look and the highest hit I have is 4K, 30% in the mid 3Ks the rest are low-3's to high 2s