Daily Change (Strongly Against... Read Why)

[LancelotOC]

When did gamers begin to rely so heavily on gear imbalances to justify skill? Seriously, how does the loser playing 6 games to your 3 hurt you other than eventually they may have better gear than they have now? Stroke your epeen all you want, but there is no awe-inspiring skill to playing any facet of a MMO. In all liklihood, it will be those that are complaining about the loss of a perceived gear advantage that leave the game before a casual.

 

This!

 

Also if any gamer tell you he plays to not win he is flat out lying.

[Lexster]

This is a terrible change. I'm not saying that because I have gear and I don't want people to gear up themselves easy.

 

I am saying this is terrible because it takes the need to win away from a lot of players. There are some players that try to win no matter what. But there is a whole lot of people that don't want to win. These are the people that are happy with this change.

 

This change is going to take a bunch of the competition out of PVP. Changes like this promote people to AFK in Warzones and not try. You know because eventually they will get their daily done.

 

Not sure what BW is thinking with rewarding losing teams so much. People should have to win. This is the same reason BW up'd the rewards for losing teams. I don't get it.

 

You must be the guy with the vein popping out of your forehead during warzones. I try to win every match I enter. Even 5 vs 8. No matter how bad the match goes though, Im there to have fun first and foremost. It is really a sign of the times when people complain about someone receiving a paltry reward at twice the time requirement. If dailies gave an automatic WH piece, I could understand the complaints, but we are talking about rewards that are less than what most winning teams make in a single match(minus ranked comms currently)

[Olympic]

When did gamers begin to rely so heavily on gear imbalances to justify skill?

 

WoW.......

[Quinlynn]

So, you think MMOs should be designed to only satisfy hardcore/good players, and should make bad players quit.

 

Dude, that is an AWESOME BUSINESS MODEL SURE TO EARN YOU LOTS OF MONEY. GO MAKE THAT MMO RIGHT NOW.

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

[_treaty_]

You must be the guy with the vein popping out of your forehead during warzones. I try to win every match I enter. Even 5 vs 8. No matter how bad the match goes though, Im there to have fun first and foremost.

 

I think you might not be the target demographic you think you are. IMO, GaryCartel has a valid point.

 

You can't say you haven't been in many WZ's where the opposing team is losing, so they all just go to the single node they control and /getdown until the round has ended... or the opposing team gives up scoring points in hutball because they are down 2, and instead of focusing on catching up, they focus's on killing any player that passes by them instead, just waiting for the opposing team to score their 6 so the match is over.

 

These things happen, and I'm curious to see how much more or less they will happen after today's patch. If you dont see these things happen somewhat often - then what server are you on? I want to go to there (because like you, I play to win too. Usually even when it seems futile, because it's more fun that way. But I don't think I'm the norm.)

[amnie]

they should just hand out two dailies. one for the wins, one for the played.

 

OMG I'M A GENIUS

 

(wait, someone has already mentioned this, haven't they?)

[oompadouche]

All honesty there is no such thing as a good player its all based on your group. Not one single person can win a warzone. Also this is based on class setups if you have all Force users on 1 side and 3/4 tech and 1/4 force who do you think will most likley win? you are assuming that all players who lose warzones are lazy and bad but your logic is stupid. Class makeup wins almost every single warzone so get off your high horse.

[ProfessorWalsh]

When you make a game, you reward players for overcoming challenges.

 

Good players can easily do their daily mission. Bad players can't and will find something that is more interesting to them

 

Zintiel let me tell you something...

 

This is my server makeup at the moment:

 

Republic: 272

Empire: 731

 

32 Shadows

39 Sages

22 Vanguards

38 Commandos

48 Guardians

51 Sentinels

20 Scoundrels

22 Gunslingers

 

61 Assassins

116 Sorcerers

53 Powertechs

111 Mercenaries

128 Juggernauts

142 Marauders

57 Operatives

63 Snipers

 

The Republic is outnumbered at nearly 3:1.

 

In fact there are almost Sith Warriors over level 10 than there are Republic players period.

 

This is on one of the more highly populated servers.

 

So yes, people get frustrated and quit, and no we can't afford that. Unless you don't want anyone to fight against at all.

[Zintiel]

The Republic is outnumbered at nearly 3:1

 

This is on one of the more highly populated servers.

 

So yes, people get frustrated and quit, and no we can't afford that. Unless you don't want anyone to fight against at all.

 

Wait, you seem to think having a low pop is a bad thing. On my server you're lucky if you don't see one of about 20 or so pubs in every single possible warzone. Their lower pop means they decide when battles happen, and since they usually only queue with 2 premades, chances are you're fighting 8 people in one premade. Oh before you go all 'herf derff you stupid imp you don't know' keep in mind I started as a 50 on their side. I still have a geared 50 pvp toon and I still play it too, when I want to pretty much steamroll anyone with a borderline exploitative team.

 

But that's neither here nor there, and not even the issue at hand. The issue is that even if you're right about this stupid change to dailies being a fix, I'm assuming that you are correct and just know more than me, this is not the best way to fix it. There are other options on the table, other options that aren't a cop out for the players.

 

Here, just to try to help you understand what this little change is. We'll use PvE as an example. Your raid shows up for a nightmare mode heroic wearing green gear you got questing and leveling up. Another raid comes in having spent days learning fights geared to take on the encounter. Your raid flops around a bit against the first boss, the other raid beats every boss in the instance. You are then both given the same epics for the entire instance.

 

I guess to you, since you are in greens this seems fair. I mean if you didn't your team of raiders in green gear they leveled in would quit the game, and Bioware can't afford to lose anymore people since the 400k exodus last month. Everyone should just get the same reward, that will bring new players in and bring old players back.

[Paretheus]

...Good players can easily do their daily mission. Bad players can't and will find something that is more interesting to them...

 

One good player does not a warzone win make. It takes a good team, or at least a team that is less bad than the opposing team.

 

This change is fair, and doesn't really impact any single person negatively. So why are you complaining?

[Krenzik]

Nobody had a problem with participation and performance based compensation win or lose pre 1.2.

 

Why now since it was just essentially rolled back to something no one had issue with before?

 

None of the vocal decriers of the current compensation system wants to answer this.

 

Why?

[bigheadbrandon]

the people that "wont try because they dont have to win" would have also just left the wz at the first sign of a losing game before this change

so nothing has changed, people who care about winning or even just playing will be doing the same thing they always have been

[Ceasaigh]

I love this debate about reward vs winning

 

Everyone assumes that the sides are equal and balanced, guess what? THE SIDES ARE NOT EQUAL AND BALANCED!

 

On low population servers and even Medium population servers you have one side completely dominating the other due to severe faction imbalances. Be it Rebel or Imperial it's a self perpetuating gear gap that just keeps getting wider and wider. There is simply no way for the dominated side to catch up if there punished for not winning.

 

It's a pointless debate, if all things were equal and balanced and you have close to even faction balance then maybe you could start to talk about rewarding the winning side and punishing the losers. But until that day BW has to do something to close the gear gap a bit so WZ's are competitive and not roflmastops buy one side.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Ceasaigh

[Paretheus]

...Good players can easily do their daily mission. Bad players can't and will find something that is more interesting to them...

 

One good player does not a warzone win make. It takes a good team, or at least a team that is less bad than the opposing team.

 

This change is fair, and doesn't really impact any single person negatively. So why are you complaining?

[Vodrin]

Wait, you seem to think having a low pop is a bad thing. On my server you're lucky if you don't see one of about 20 or so pubs in every single possible warzone. Their lower pop means they decide when battles happen, and since they usually only queue with 2 premades, chances are you're fighting 8 people in one premade. Oh before you go all 'herf derff you stupid imp you don't know' keep in mind I started as a 50 on their side. I still have a geared 50 pvp toon and I still play it too, when I want to pretty much steamroll anyone with a borderline exploitative team.

 

But that's neither here nor there, and not even the issue at hand. The issue is that even if you're right about this stupid change to dailies being a fix, I'm assuming that you are correct and just know more than me, this is not the best way to fix it. There are other options on the table, other options that aren't a cop out for the players.

 

Here, just to try to help you understand what this little change is. We'll use PvE as an example. Your raid shows up for a nightmare mode heroic wearing green gear you got questing and leveling up. Another raid comes in having spent days learning fights geared to take on the encounter. Your raid flops around a bit against the first boss, the other raid beats every boss in the instance. You are then both given the same epics for the entire instance.

 

I guess to you, since you are in greens this seems fair. I mean if you didn't your team of raiders in green gear they leveled in would quit the game, and Bioware can't afford to lose anymore people since the 400k exodus last month. Everyone should just get the same reward, that will bring new players in and bring old players back.

 

I don't really understand the level of objection you have to this. There is still a substantially better reward for winning the warzones as opposed to losing. Assume you have two reasonably good players. One is queuing with a strong pre-made and wins all 6 of the warzones he plays that night. The other queues solo and wins only 1 of the 6 he plays because he was stuck with pathetic pug teams for the most part. Both are good enough to get 8 medals in every warzone.

 

Both complete their daily, but the first guy averages 120 comms per warzone, while the second averages 80. The first gets about 850 comms for the evening while the second makes 550. I think this is completely fair as it rewards the guy who queued despite not organizing a team enough that he will continue to play, even if he cannot find a good team, and the guy who is able to organize a stacked pre-made is rewarded by getting gear significantly more quickly. Assuming both play the same way for 5 days per week, the player with the better team is making 6000 more commendations per month. Again, I think this is fair.

[Kindara]

they should just hand out two dailies. one for the wins, one for the played.

 

OMG I'M A GENIUS

 

(wait, someone has already mentioned this, haven't they?)

 

Sounds like the problem still persists in this case. Premades would continue to face roll and gear their mates several times faster than the normal player.

[Phlem]

When you make a game, you reward players for overcoming challenges.

 

Good players can easily do their daily mission. Bad players can't and will find something that is more interesting to them.

 

Maybe bad players cancel their subs? Oh, wouldn't want that. Let's desperately pander to the worst players who are ultimately the most disloyal, the ones who probably are just killing time waiting for the next MMO to roll out and be bad in, just in a thin attempt to drive more subs, while also driving away anyone who is remotely good or enjoys the game. I am not the best player in this game, but I have enjoyed it until a lot of these strange 'fixes' for pvp started rolling out.

 

How about narrowing the gap between gear levels? Why were entire sets of PvP gear eliminated from the game instead of making a few levels to progress through? What about this awful queue system for battlegrounds? There's a team of 6 in Civil War right now, I got dc'd and I cannot rejoin them to hopelessly flounder against the exact same 8 person premade that I've been fighting all day.

 

How about we fix the real issues that make PvP inaccessible! All while still rewarding us for the work and effort they put into their characters.

 

Honestly I just see this change as another slap in the face to all the players. It doesn't matter what you do in game, you'll still get your same reward, so everyone should be happy right? Nope, not me.

 

You totally missed the point with this change. It's not so much making it easier for the bads complete their daily's, it's about good players who continue having to be in a PUG and getting rickrolled by premades with much better gear. On several occasions I have gone over a week without being able to finish the daily I picked up on Tuesday.

 

The bads will continue to be bad and easy to kill no matter what gear they have. This gives the good players who sometimes go days without winning a warzone a chance to catch up to the oppositions gear.

 

Like I said in another post. Don't blame the change, blame the ridiculous gear curve in PvP. There is more of a gear curve in 5 months of SWTOR PvP then there ever was in WoW, unless you were in the top 5% of the arena teams. The absurde gear curve is what's hurting PvP the most right now. It was at the point where is was not even fun PvP'ing when you knew your were going to lose 99% of the time and unable to finish your daily.

[Phlem]

Sounds like the problem still persists in this case. Premades would continue to face roll and gear their mates several times faster than the normal player.

 

This is where the problem lies in PvP right now. Open cross server warzones and put restrictions on premades being able to queue against a PUG.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Phlem

[Darth_Philar]

Doesn't address the current problem. Wasn't really needed. You can count right? Calculate what those 99 rated comms cost from just doing WZ's with no reward or daily. It isn't very significant. It does nothing to address the current problem.

 

What is the current problem that you think it doesn't address? I can tell you of at least 2 current problems that it does address (which makes it needed to some degree).

 

The fact that the reward is insignificant is irrelevant. The point is that the daily provides a somewhat easy to achieve objective which increases the odds of more people queuing up. Some people PvP for the fun of it, others fo the rewards/prestige, and some just because they have a quest that tells them too.

[LancelotOC]

Personally I spent the day yesterday light saber dueling enemy healers and chasing Pyro PTs . Still got daily done.

[dcgregorya]

Good players can easily do their daily mission. Bad players can't and will find something that is more interesting to them.

 

Every single "bad motha" on my server I can trounce. I don't know why you assume that a "good player" can overcome having 7 or less bad players on their team. If I'm playing 6 vs 8 and 4 of my guys have less than 14k HP it's not like I can overcome that in a game like Civil war unless the enemy team is AFK.

 

Long story short, this was a needed change in lieu of allowing 8 man premades.

 

BTW, I do agree with a ton of what you say in your post, I just disagree that this is a bad change. You are right that gear plays far far too much of a role in level 50 PVP. Server pop being so horrible and premades vs pugs is just another problem to add to the list of problems. But this is something at least which is better than nothing at all.

Edited May 9, 2012 by dcgregorya

[ZeusThunder]

I'm surprise more people aren't bothered with the constant DPS classes that can't break 100k dps in warzones. You are intentionally not trying if you play that poorly.

We need a "don't group me with this person ever again" feature really. Make it so the goods can avoid being on the same team as the bads.

[dcgregorya]

I'm surprise more people aren't bothered with the constant DPS classes that can't break 100k dps in warzones. You are intentionally not trying if you play that poorly.

We need a "don't group me with this person ever again" feature really. Make it so the goods can avoid being on the same team as the bads.

 

QFT. Of course then queues would never pop because the servers are stacked with 30 people each.

 

I can't count how many times I've respec'd out of healer into DPS because the pugs I was rolling with had permaheals and still took twenty minutes to kill anyone. So, so bad. When I play a dedicated healer, I will typically outdamage at least half of my team and still get 200k-300k+ in healing. I have no idea how a sentinel can close out a match with less than 50k in damage but it happens every single game I play.

[Krashnburn]

So, you think MMOs should be designed to only satisfy hardcore/good players, and should make bad players quit.

 

Dude, that is an AWESOME BUSINESS MODEL SURE TO EARN YOU LOTS OF MONEY. GO MAKE THAT MMO RIGHT NOW.

 

You are correct sir. "Hardcore" players that want to drive away the "casuals" are just helping to kill the game.

 

See, Warhammer.

 

That would be like a restaurant owner trying to discourage people with "causal" tastes from patronizing them because they only want to cater to those that have a real appreciation for their gourmet food.

[Baizak]

This is where the problem lies in PvP right now. Open cross server warzones and put restrictions on premades being able to queue against a PUG.

 

QFT... Open cross server to fix the faction imbalance on a lot of the servers. I play on Tarro Blood and most evenings prime time the reps are lucky to have 40+ on the fleet and very lucky to see 10+ on most planets vs. The imps that have 120+ on the fleet and god only knows their numbers across other planets. This makes queue times very long on the rep side. When the queue finally does pop we are lucky to have 8 players 5v8 is not uncommon at all.