Jaded/Bitter Old D&D Dungeon Master Working at BW?

[Rezakh]

So my brother and I were sitting down at breakfast going over our usual talking points. Graduate school, family, baby on the way, religion, history, etc. We then landed on one of our favorite passed times, gaming, and naturally we started talking about the title that we're playing at present, Old Republic.

 

My brother has always been the tank and I have always been the healer. We played DAoC, CoH, WoW, and SWTOR, amongst many other titles. It would be no surprise given this description that we ended up on the topic of healing and the sad state of affairs that the healing role is suffering in the game. We looked at some of the issues that we have seen in leveling content and found some striking issues. Flashpoints while leveling is horrendous right now for healers. Resources are generally depleted, regardless of how efficient your rotation is, very early on in the fight, as early as 75% boss health.

 

"In leveling content, this is a serious problem that should be addressed," I mention to my brother. I continue, "I can understand some nerfs to resource management in a raid setting, as stupid as that would seem, it would still make more sense to do this in an OPs setting, where one is expecting a challenge, than the leveling content".

 

My brother and I discuss other issues with healing, like it being boring to actually carry out with minimal ability selection and few options in general, coupled with the fact that there's so much cc in pvp, it makes it a true test of sanity retention rather than an ideal example of enjoyable game play. You would figure that BW's goal would be to aim for the latter, but my brother had a different idea.

 

He said, "You know"..."I think that BW ended up hiring someone in the development team that's an old D&D Dungeon Master."

 

I thought he was a bit delusion and running off on some incoherent thought perceived by idiots to be sheer genius but being partially curious myself, I responded, "Why do you say that?"

 

My brother responds, "Think about it"...[at this point I am doing a lot of thinking about his sanity]..."you have a guy in a position of power that has the ability to make life miserable for other people in a virtual reality environment played by a large number of people."

 

He continues..."This guy did this for many years in the table top arena where he developed this habit of desiring to make other player's lives miserable every time they got pissed off about how you designed a dungeon. It was also very common for DM's to have a very cynical way of designing dungeons and many of them got a very sick sense of satisfaction out of screwing with their players. This is what happens when you give power to a sociopath doubling as a nerd."

 

(If you ever played D&D or heard stories about it, you know that players often had a very serious attachment to their characters and the game, making it nearly impossible for them to cope with any sort negative outcome that would befall their character).

 

My brother furthers his point with, "I think the same thing is happening here. Someone on the development staff is getting pissed off at the whining and crying about the game and decide in a somewhat subtle way to screw over the gaming experience for everyone that plays by screwing around with the role that has traditionally been the most thankless and least desirable one to play."

 

He then says, "Or it could be some dude that's still holding a grudge from the D&D player whining days and just decided to screw with people in this game cause it's star wars so there's a lot of people playing it."

 

Feel free to share your theory on the failure in logic that's taking place at the dev offices of BW or comment on this one.

[oredith]

haha.. i still remember how incredibly pissed off one GM was, a VERY long time ago, when my friends and I were playing AD&D.

 

he had a dungeon map laid out, and by total chance, I managed to lead our group down the exact path through the dungeon to avoid all the horrible death traps he had laid out.

 

even then, we met up against an umberhulk. which my party promptly killed via SEVERAL rolls of 20.

 

he was pissed, and made sure to stack everything against us from there on out.

 

so, you may be onto something here..

[Rezakh]

haha.. i still remember how incredibly pissed off one GM was, a VERY long time ago, when my friends and I were playing AD&D.

 

he had a dungeon map laid out, and by total chance, I managed to lead our group down the exact path through the dungeon to avoid all the horrible death traps he had laid out.

 

even then, we met up against an umberhulk. which my party promptly killed via SEVERAL rolls of 20.

 

he was pissed, and made sure to stack everything against us from there on out.

 

so, you may be onto something here..

 

rofl, my brother and I both enjoyed your story of D&D back in the day.

 

Just remember this thing is mostly my brother's idea, but I have a hard time arguing with his logic, at this point, and that says a lot. I usually argue with his logic everyday.

[XtremJedi]

Ahhhh nostalgia.

 

Took me right back to the old days of pencils and die.

 

X

[Xaearth]

I seriously doubt it.

 

I fail to see how anyone with the slightest hint of a background in D&D can create such a dumbed down system that is most obvious in the current state of healing, but prevalent in all areas of the game.

 

D&D itself was simple, but above all things afforded choice to its players, making it endlessly complex.

SW:TOR is quickly distinguishing itself as the antithesis of that choice and complexity.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Xaearth

[RuQu]

I seriously doubt it.

 

I fail to see how anyone with the slightest hint of a background in D&D can create such a dumbed down system that is most obvious in the current state of healing, but prevalent in all areas of the game.

 

D&D itself was simple, but above all things afforded choice to its players, making it endlessly complex.

SW:TOR is quickly distinguishing itself as the antithesis of that choice and complexity.

 

I think you are missing what he is getting at.

 

He isn't comparing the game to D&D. He is comparing the Devs (or some key Devs) to the sorts of antisocial Dungeon Masters who would get upset at any criticism and take it out on the players.

 

I have to admit this has crossed my mind on occasion, but I generally dismiss it. It is natural to view the world through a 'me' centered lens, since you (obviously) do experience the world through yourself. As such it is natural to tend to think that anything that negatively affects you was targeted at you, even when it wasn't. While this is a natural thought, the rational mind will normally see that this is not necessarily the case and rationalize away any feeling of victimization.

 

That said...I have a bit of a reputation, and it is quite possible that the Devs do know who I am. I have multiple stickied threads (or did, I've asked one to be taken down). I've had multiple threads with Dev responses in them, although rarely responding directly to me. These responses usually result in people being upset that the responses didn't address the core of my topics. There was one thread where AP accused me of trolling due to some sarcasm and was rapidly piled on by the other posters laughing at the very idea...On the PTS there were people saying they would believe my results over a direct quote from GZ due to difference in reputation.

 

So yeah, it's possible they know who I am. And I know this post probably sounds a bit arrogant (which is why I've never said anything like it before now). I'm a pretty humble guy, and while it may sound arrogant the above are all facts.

 

In light of those examples, which are only a sample, above, it has certainly occurred to me that some of these changes were directed at me in particular. It was my favorite class, the Combat Medic Commando, that was inexplicably nerfed with a remarkable lack of subtlety or design consideration. Judging by GZ's various responses and public appearances I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if he was that sort of person.

 

That said, we should come again to my first paragraph. It is natural to think these things. Our worlds are innately self-centered, and that is how we first perceive every event. But we are rational creatures, and as we look up, and expand our view, we can usually gain a measure of context that shifts the center of events away from us and towards a broader epicenter. The odds of any given large scale disaster, even a man-made one, being targeted at one person or group is unlikely.

 

On the other hand, we have seen absolutely zero evidence for a more compelling reason than spite, so perhaps it is true.

[oredith]

and we get responses like this from devtracker:

 

Everyone - we're always reading the forums and gathering your feedback on issues that are important to you.

 

it begs the question - if they are reading the forum, and reading our feedback (considering a few of them are in stickied thread), it stands to reason that they're well aware of the concerns - why haven't we had a response to the healing nerfs since 1.2?

 

so, the deliberate lack of response is either:

• willfully ignoring the plea, or
  
• inability to actually respond

 

I'm personally siding with "inability to respond".

Edited May 8, 2012 by oredith

[ekimmak]

I'm personally siding with "inability to respond".

 

I remember seeing someone's post that if the Devs were to admit that the nerfs were a mistake, it would be severely detrimental to the game. I kind of think they're right.

 

My first MMO was City of Heroes. Pretty good game, but it had an atrocious PVP. I found out later that it wasn't always like that, but the Devs had tried to implement a system to make it better, only to severely mess up. It took a lot of time and money to implement the system, so removing it would indicate it had been a terrible idea in the first place, and a waste of all that time and money. Apparently, it becomes worth the effort if it stays.

 

I can't help but feel it's similar here. If they remove the nerfs, not only does it mean that they were wrong (and not very good at balance) but it also teaches the playerbase "Whine enough, and we'll get it". Not a good idea. I hope that they'll fix the changes, just like I hope they'll nerf Sentinel's overpoweredness in PVP (I know it's not a word). But I hope they do it right, and don't go overboard, requiring another 180.

[oredith]

guild mate linked the EA quarterly report on our guild forums yesterday, and talking about the drop in subs.

 

I (sorta) joked about path 1.3 notes:

 

(my proposed 1.3 patch notes)

• all healing related nerfs reverted to pre-1.2
  
• GZ has been fired
  
• dual spec added
  
• free server xfer added

 

pretty sure that'd win a lot of people back..

Edited May 8, 2012 by oredith

[Xaearth]

I think you are missing what he is getting at.

 

He isn't comparing the game to D&D. He is comparing the Devs (or some key Devs) to the sorts of antisocial Dungeon Masters who would get upset at any criticism and take it out on the players.

 

I get it. It just doesn't mesh IMO.

If that were really the case, we would have seen roaming packs of wild Operatives in 1.1.1, instead of a nerf.

 

No, these devs are the rules lawyers.

We debunked their "rules" arguments, turned their metrics against them, and now they're throwing a hissy fit.

 

I remember seeing someone's post that if the Devs were to admit that the nerfs were a mistake, it would be severely detrimental to the game. I kind of think they're right.

 

My first MMO was City of Heroes. Pretty good game, but it had an atrocious PVP. I found out later that it wasn't always like that, but the Devs had tried to implement a system to make it better, only to severely mess up. It took a lot of time and money to implement the system, so removing it would indicate it had been a terrible idea in the first place, and a waste of all that time and money. Apparently, it becomes worth the effort if it stays.

 

I can't help but feel it's similar here. If they remove the nerfs, not only does it mean that they were wrong (and not very good at balance) but it also teaches the playerbase "Whine enough, and we'll get it". Not a good idea. I hope that they'll fix the changes, just like I hope they'll nerf Sentinel's overpoweredness in PVP (I know it's not a word). But I hope they do it right, and don't go overboard, requiring another 180.

 

That would assume serious time and money spent on the healing changes.

For the most part the changes to healing were simple changes to variables in a database.

 

Heck, from what I've heard, the reason they removed Sorc/Sage's "flash" heal from their proc is because they couldn't be bothered putting in the time and money to fix the way the proc buff works.

 

That said, I fully agree with the assessment that the devs are incapable of admitting any mistake, but for a completely different reason: "metrics".

To publicly admit that their best-in-the-business metrics are wrong...

[RuQu]

guild mate linked the EA quarterly report on our guild forums yesterday, and talking about the drop in subs.

 

I (sorta) joked about path 1.3 notes:

 

(my proposed 1.3 patch notes)

 

 

pretty sure that'd win a lot of people back..

 

Amusing though it may be, it's probably not true.

 

Most of those they have lost have moved on. We are invested elsewhere. If our new games prove unable to keep us entertained AND they make substantial changes, they might get people back. Changes alone won't do it if we have no reason to leave our new games.

[Oobob]

Heck, from what I've heard, the reason they removed Sorc/Sage's "flash" heal from their proc is because they couldn't be bothered putting in the time and money to fix the way the proc buff works.

 

rofl that's right, the resurgance bug that allows you to proc on innervate then cast another heal before it ends and proc again is STILL THERE, it's just that the proc from it doesn't give you a fast dark infusion.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Oobob

[Artthen]

Hello everyone!

 

We ask that threads in the Healing forum pertain to discussion of Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ as it pertains to healing roles. Due to this, we will be closing this thread for being off topic. Thank you for your understanding.