looking for a concealment pvp spec

[gresiac]

yes i like to play the underdog spec anyone got a good spec ?

[Ryemfoh]

There are plenty of posts on the forum about PVP specs - just do a search and you'll find 'em. You can start in this thread which is on p2 of the thread list.

[Dcayd]

Concealment is not an underdog. Just cause it can't facestomp Marauders or tankasins doesn't mean it's still not good.

 

As far as spec: log in, mouse over the talents, use common sense, profit. There's only 2-3 points that can really be moved around.

[SWToRBurns]

3/31/7 Med/Conceal/Leth

 

Make sure you pick up: Movement speed+, Root on Sever tendon, and the Debilitate CD reduction from Leth.

 

Other than that, if you can't figure it out, don't play Operative.

[Robpwnz]

I have actually been messing around with different variations to concealment. For the longest time i was 3/31/7. with 3/3 imperial education. Then switched to the 2/2 for the heal w/ TA. Love them both but im torn between the two. IE is great for those big burst numbers u wanna see.

 

At the moment the past couple specs I have removed jarring strike. Im still getting used to it, even though its nice to have for 1v1. It add's resolve for a 1.5s stun....gettings annoying in hutball. Also I am full stealth capped. I felt like I was getting caught more easily by some classes w/o the added detection. Thoughts on stealth, jarring strike, and imperial education??

[Ich_Bin]

I have actually been messing around with different variations to concealment. For the longest time i was 3/31/7. with 3/3 imperial education. Then switched to the 2/2 for the heal w/ TA. Love them both but im torn between the two. IE is great for those big burst numbers u wanna see.

 

At the moment the past couple specs I have removed jarring strike. Im still getting used to it, even though its nice to have for 1v1. It add's resolve for a 1.5s stun....gettings annoying in hutball. Also I am full stealth capped. I felt like I was getting caught more easily by some classes w/o the added detection. Thoughts on stealth, jarring strike, and imperial education??

 

Jarring Strike, Imperial Education and Improved Stealth (improved movement speed!!!!) I will never give up as a concealment operative.

I have been messing around with a 7/31/3 build lateley (picking up Incisive Action and Chem-resistant Inlays) and I have to say, I like those faster heals way better than the lower CD on Debilitate. There are some situations - especially in Huttball and Voidstar defense - where those heals can really make a big difference.

 

My current spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401Mc0MZGhModdRdGRZoM.1

Edited April 28, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Bazzoong]

^^ hey, first step in the right direction, Next step: get rid of imperial brew take the healing increasing talent instead, get rid of the bs talents get the increased stealth detection talents instead, get rid of the damage talents in the lethality tree, put 1 point into the endurance talent and 2 into the push back protection (the last mentioned option will make you get heals of during pebble trow and force lightning, it also makes KI really worthwhile).

 

Test it, and thank me later.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Ich_Bin]

^^ hey, first step in the right direction, Next step: get rid of imperial brew take the healing increasing talent instead, get rid of the bs talents get the increased stealth detection talents instead, get rid of the damage talents in the lethality tree, put 1 point into the endurance talent and 2 into the push back protection (the last mentioned option will make you get heals of during pebble trow and force lightning, it also makes KI really worthwhile).

 

Test it, and thank me later.

 

What do I need an improved stealth detection for? Since 1.2 I can see any stealther from 15 meters away as long as I am facing him. The bad players who never bothered to spec into their stealth detection complained about "OP stealth classes" enough so that Bioware gave everyone their stealth detection for free.

Regarding your other suggestions: Survival Training is certainly something to think about but right now I am not willing to sacrifice any more of my burst for survivability. I can kite and survive well enough. Surgical Steadiness is not very important to me because when I heal myself I usually use LoS or CC my opponent. And players who don't use CCs/interrupts when I channel a heal but keep on doing damage instead are no real threats anyways.

I also use Corrosive Dart a lot against heavy armor targets with great success so I am not dumping Imperial Brew. So I guess it's all a matter of personal preference.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Bazzoong]

My KI crits over 5k on myself, the stealth detection will give you the jump on sins.

 

If they interrupt KI here comes orbital strike, or a heal with ta which will crit for 4k...

 

Damage mitigation and healing taken beat the damage increase from imp. brew big time. Before 1.2 I did not use surgical steadiness either but as it stands now 1 heal will make all the difference getting that 1 heal faster or at all is what matters.

 

Take this situation against tanksins, they get low on hp they knock you away slow you pop their med pack and use the uninterruptable force lightning heal, after that they would be ahead on hp and wear you down.

 

Now with my suggested spec you can just heal up during that thanks to surgical steadiness. They just used some major cds you did not use any you are ahead. And on top of that you will have gained ta from KI.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Maaajk]

^^ hey, first step in the right direction, Next step: get rid of imperial brew take the healing increasing talent instead, get rid of the bs talents get the increased stealth detection talents instead, get rid of the damage talents in the lethality tree, put 1 point into the endurance talent and 2 into the push back protection (the last mentioned option will make you get heals of during pebble trow and force lightning, it also makes KI really worthwhile).

 

Test it, and thank me later.

 

Does this skill effect both the healing u do TO urself with double effect? moore % healed and moore % recieved if u understand what i mean.

[Ich_Bin]

My KI crits over 5k on myself, the stealth detection will give you the jump on sins.

 

If they interrupt KI here comes orbital strike, or a heal with ta which will crit for 4k...

 

Damage mitigation and healing taken beat the damage increase from imp. brew big time. Before 1.2 I did not use surgical steadiness either but as it stands now 1 heal will make all the difference getting that 1 heal faster or at all is what matters.

 

Take this situation against tanksins, they get low on hp they knock you away slow you pop their med pack and use the uninterruptable force lightning heal, after that they would be ahead on hp and wear you down.

 

Now with my suggested spec you can just heal up during that thanks to surgical steadiness. They just used some major cds you did not use any you are ahead. And on top of that you will have gained ta from KI.

 

Well, that is assuming that your opponent only interrupts your heals by using one interrupt.

When I play with my Tank Sin against a Scoundrel/Operative that tries to heal himself I will interrupt the first heal with spike, use my knockback vs the second heal, use my interrupt vs the third, electrocute vs the 4th. By then that Scoundrel/Op is dead without doing any damage or healing.

 

That being said your spec might be effective against many of the average Tank Sins that you see around, but how about fighting DPS Powertechs? You need your DoTs for internal damage (not mitigated by armor) and you usually get into an all-or-nothing fight where there is zero room for healing yourself. Just as an example of a fight where you would usually prefer having better DPS over better healing.

 

 

Overall I like investing some points into the medic tree (instead of lethality) more for the purpose of healing allies rather than healing myself, which is why I don't spec into Survival Training. And I don't need the 5k healing medal anyways.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[ktkenshinx]

Running a fairly standard 3/31/7 build these days:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGhModdRdGRZhr.1

 

As a lot of previous posters have pointed out, you are just going to have trouble with heavily armored opponents. Shadows/Sins are particularly nasty, with hard hitting guys like Pyros being similarly problematic. There are a few important considerations when fighting Shadows/Sins especially that will help you come out ahead with a Concealment spec.

 

1. Do not waste CDs on Resilience/Force Shroud

These two abilities, when talented, remove all negative effects and grant 5 second immunity to tech. Any tech abilities you throw at the opponent in this window are just going to get neutralized. For Ops, that's a huge chunk of our abilities; everything in our arsenal is tech except the following:

Rifle Shot

Overload Shot

Carbine Burst

Snipe

Of those 4, only 2 are relevant. Snipe keeps you pinned down, sacrificing our mobility. Carbine Burst has bad energy/damage ratio. During the window in which Resilience is up, fire off Overload and Rifle. Nothing else. The worst possible thing you can do is panic and pop a stun/snare.

 

2. Never, ever fight in the open

You need to be able to use LOS to break Sin/Shadow channels. These abilities hit hard, can't be interrupted, and heal the user when talented. You don't want to fight at range; your knives only work in an opponent's face. But you do need to be able to kite around some obstructions. Here are some examples in the WZs.

Huttball: Fight around the generators on the upper level near the first set of fire pits. Or the pillars that hold up the catwalks.

Civil War: Use the objective node to break LOS.

Voidstar: On the first door, stick near the pillars next to the door. On the second door it's a bit trickier, especially as defense, because the pillars aren't close enough to the doors. The third door is easy again; use all the machinery around the room.

Novare Coast: Stick near the edges of the small objective huts. Cut around the wall when the channel starts.

 

3. Tendon Slash to heal

When you need to fire off heals, Tendon Slash the opponent and then quickly dart around a wall. That will give you at least 1 guaranteed Injection, and maybe even an Infusion if the opponent is flustered by this move. If the opponent trinkets out of the Slash....

 

4. Flashbang to heal

If you know for a fact that the opponent's escape is down, Flashbang will give you 3 straight Kolto Injections. That's a lot of health that can help you finish off the fight.

 

These are just some quick points that can help you prevail over a Shadow/Sin in a straight on fight.

 

The real question, I would say, is: Why are you focusing on these tough guys? Know your targets (light/medium armor) and target accordingly.

[Bazzoong]

Well, that is assuming that your opponent only interrupts your heals by using one interrupt.

When I play with my Tank Sin against a Scoundrel/Operative that tries to heal himself I will interrupt the first heal with spike, use my knockback vs the second heal, use my interrupt vs the third, electrocute vs the 4th. By then that Scoundrel/Op is dead without doing any damage or healing.

 

That being said your spec might be effective against many of the average Tank Sins that you see around, but how about fighting DPS Powertechs? You need your DoTs for internal damage (not mitigated by armor) and you usually get into an all-or-nothing fight where there is zero room for healing yourself. Just as an example of a fight where you would usually prefer having better DPS over better healing.

 

 

Overall I like investing some points into the medic tree (instead of lethality) more for the purpose of healing allies rather than healing myself, which is why I don't spec into Survival Training. And I don't need the 5k healing medal anyways.

 

DPs race is not the way to go, especially against pyros, what is decisive there is to deny the detonator, rail shot combo and "dispel" the dot at the right time. Rail shot is ranged damage go figure.

 

To sum my experience with the 1.2 patch up: pre patch the only AC I could not consistently beat where tank sins/shadow with a lot of pve gear this has changed with the changes to expertise (I will not go into that I am sure you understand why since you play one).

 

Since the patch I can consistently beat any AC, with this I mean I do not think that there is a counter class to operatives at the moment, there is a good chance to win against anyone, when I die it is usually due to my mistakes rather than an other classes mechanics.

 

In my humble opinion operatives are in a way better position and are way more flexible than ever, when it comes to pvp.

 

 

To the guy posting the 3/31/7 again, that spec is garbage, you gimp yourself by using it, to put it plain and simple it was designed by 6 button idiots for 6 button idiots.

[ktkenshinx]

I really have to disagree with the assessment that 3/31/7 is a "garbage" spec. Having played literally hundreds of WZs, both pre and post 1.2, I can confidently vouch for the 3/31/7 spec. I am sure that there are bad players out there who use it poorly; anyone who says that it is a spec that uses only 6 buttons, for example, probably has a lot of experience with such bad players, and I am sorry that you have seen it misused.

 

I am not even sure where this misconception comes from. It would be impossible for me to even play a WZ without using basically every single ability in our arsenal. Op versatility is critical to our class success, and 3/31/7 definitely honors that versatility. The rapid fire Debilitate is particularly useful both from a versatility/healing perspective, and from a straight up assassin one.

 

Can an opponent escape from the stun? Yes, but even with set bonuses, you can only pop those escapes every 105 seconds. They can't escape them all.

Edited April 29, 2012 by ktkenshinx

[Ahebish]

yes i like to play the underdog spec anyone got a good spec ?

 

It's called Marauder/Jug

 

There's the secret to concealment PVP specs.

[Ahebish]

3/31/7 spec is garbage.

 

It yields no static benefits.

 

Get off the debilitate kick it won't save you.

 

You gain more by not using this spec as static results that are always there.

 

Increase tech crit chance and ranged crit chance is an absolute waste.

 

Crit chance means jack squat without power and surge to back it up. Least of all do you have any ranged ability worth noting as concealment. And yes I include explosive probe or w/e the crouchers love to use. After that one skill wonder you are left 30m out of range out of stealth in combat with no in combat stealth CD... Ya that's intelligent.

 

Wasted points

 

Enter debilitate CD reduction. Really?

 

Knock yourself out, while I retain my 4% damage reduction 100% of the time, and my boosted energy regen + instant energy regen on adrenaline probe. I'll take my chances and not use that spec for those 15secs of CD you are wasting your time on.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Ahebish

[Rizael]

3/31/7 spec is garbage.

 

It yields no static benefits.

 

Get off the debilitate kick it won't save you.

 

You gain more by not using this spec as static results that are always there.

 

Increase tech crit chance and ranged crit chance is an absolute waste.

 

Crit chance means jack squat without power and surge to back it up. Least of all do you have any ranged ability worth noting as concealment. And yes I include explosive probe or w/e the crouchers love to use. After that one skill wonder you are left 30m out of range out of stealth in combat with no in combat stealth CD... Ya that's intelligent.

 

Wasted points

 

Enter debilitate CD reduction. Really?

 

Knock yourself out, while I retain my 4% damage reduction 100% of the time, and my boosted energy regen + instant energy regen on adrenaline probe. I'll take my chances and not use that spec for those 15secs of CD you are wasting your time on.

 

Not going too in depth about it, but losing the 3% crit talent would mean the need to take 3% additional crit through gear. meaning one mod will transfer from power to crit (39 Power loss). This is significant loss to Bonus Damage (tech). Also spec'n into adrenaline probe for 16 additional energy every 2 mins can also be viewed as wasted points. which pretty much equates to an extra shiv. over two mins you can get 20 "shivs", damage wise this will still come up short for losing the shiv talent ... 20 attacks + 1 free shiv is "21", 20 shivs at a bonus of 8% dmg is 21.6.

 

I'm not saying your spec is "wrong" but I wouldn't call the focus of your spec concealment DPS, as you are avoiding increasing it on purpose. Perhaps Concealment survival is more appropriate.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Rizael

[Ryemfoh]

Not going too in depth about it, but losing the 3% crit talent would mean the need to take 3% additional crit through gear. meaning one mod will transfer from power to crit (39 Power loss). This is significant loss to Bonus Damage (tech).

Indeed - I've asked this question of him before, but Ahebish never likes to give a straight answer

@Ahebish: Where is your extra "power and surge" coming from in your spec that I'm not already getting from my gear? The crit talent means I need less crit on my gear to make good use of the power and surge that I already prioritise on mods and enhancements (although we have less choice in this matter post 1.2 without investing an insane amount of time/credits on re-modding all our PVP gear)

 

Also spec'n into adrenaline probe for 16 additional energy every 2 mins can also be viewed as wasted points. which pretty much equates to an extra shiv. over two mins you can get 20 "shivs", damage wise this will still come up short for losing the shiv talent ... 20 attacks + 1 free shiv is "21", 20 shivs at a bonus of 8% dmg is 21.6.

Interesting analysis. Personally mine was more along the lines of: "Would the extra 16 energy during a nuke phase allow me to kill a target that I wouldn't otherwise?" and the answer is "Maybe 0.5% of the time". So do I want to spend 2 points on something that will effect 0.5% of encounters? No.

 

I think the only time this talent might be worthwhile is in a "Burst for 7.5s from stealth> Vanish > Re-open" scenario since in that case you're probably looking at 3xAB and 2xHS in the space of ~8 seconds (very costly). Personally there are very very few occasions where I will resort to this kind of play since it leaves you severely gimped if things go wrong (CD's blown, energy blown, target not dead )

 

@bazz I hope you're not lumping me in with the group of "6 button idiots"! Like ktkenshinx I too make full use of all of our abilities, and like ktkenshinx I find the decreased CD on Deb very handy - particularly in 2+ v 1 situations where I need as much opponent control at my fingertips as possible. Being able to throwing Deb + Kite / LoS one of my opponents is much more valuable than the heal buff talents imo - particularly since if I'm playing well these fights will last much longer than 30s and there's a good chance I'll be able to CC again before the end.

 

This is becoming a recurring theme in the new WZ where I've had the same guy spawn and charge the base I was defending 2v1 effectively making if 3v1 ... During this fight I used my vanish for sleep + re-open, and only managed to get off 3 heals (2 during a FB mid-way through killing the 1st guy for the 2nd time*, and 1 towards the end during Deb). In the same time I managed 4 Deb's .. 2 more than I would have without the talent.

 

As I've mentioned before though, we are starting to see more pre-mades on my server and I am planning to try out your spec in the near future. I'll get back to you once I've given it a decent run

 

*DISCLAIMER: Yes, that guy definitely had very little pvp gear and neither of them were what I would call "good" at their class.

[Bazzoong]

^^ I am not calling you a 6 button idiot, nor anyone who uses 3/31/7 per se, I call the people who invented that spec for pvp 6 button idiots, it was designed to max out the damage on the first 6 buttons after the opener. After that that spec caves in.

 

I will not argue this anymore in depth, I have placed my arguments in multiple threads on this forum, but let me suggest you try the spec I repeatedly posted for acid blade concealment. A respec and back if you do not see the advantages will cost you less than 20k creds, try the spec I suggested for 3 nights of intense wz matches, I bet you will see my point.

 

And please use pvp gear when you do this.

 

(edit) I politely ask the more sensitive players to excuse the rather strong wording, but I feel it is necessary to get the message to as many players as possible.

 

(one more edit, please bare with me) In the scenario described in above post 3 heals with my spec would have gained you 3x TA directly translating into 4x lac (with proc from poison) or more heals...

Edited April 30, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Ahebish]

Not going too in depth about it, but losing the 3% crit talent would mean the need to take 3% additional crit through gear. meaning one mod will transfer from power to crit (39 Power loss). This is significant loss to Bonus Damage (tech). Also spec'n into adrenaline probe for 16 additional energy every 2 mins can also be viewed as wasted points. which pretty much equates to an extra shiv. over two mins you can get 20 "shivs", damage wise this will still come up short for losing the shiv talent ... 20 attacks + 1 free shiv is "21", 20 shivs at a bonus of 8% dmg is 21.6.

 

I'm not saying your spec is "wrong" but I wouldn't call the focus of your spec concealment DPS, as you are avoiding increasing it on purpose. Perhaps Concealment survival is more appropriate.

 

Ok, I'll bite.... Let's assume you are correct which I don't believe you are.

 

What is your crit right now without the above consequence you outlined?

 

I have a plethera of reasons why I believe you are wrong in your assumption. And several assumptions you are making about my spec that I don't think you know anything about.

 

But, I'd rather hear your justification first instead of being overly critical. (No punn intended)

Edited April 30, 2012 by Ahebish

[ktkenshinx]

@Ahebish:

The big point that I see in your post regards range. Ops, especially in the concealment spec, have a range problem. We need to be all up in the opponent's business to do anything scary, and the 3/31/7 spec is very much dedicated to the in your face range.

Theoretically, 3/31/7 has a range problem. Your lethality dip is the big problem here: 2 of your points go to the melee range Debilitate, and the other 2 go towards the other close range Shiv. At 30 meters, these are literally wasted talents; they don't actually do anything unless you are within 5 meters of a target. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

But the real question we should be asking is: Are Ops consistently stranded 30 meters away from a target? If the answer is yes, then 3/31/7 does have a lot of wasted points. If no, then 3/31/7 is going a long way towards maximizing damage output at close range. To answer this question, I want to look at the actual PvP arenas (including open world) in which Ops actually get to be a part of this range question:

 

1. Open World PvP: Range problem? Yes.

Ops in 3/31/7 have a HUGE range problem in open world conflicts, especially in the days of Ilum. The central emplacement always had two World War I style lines squaring off against each other in protracted ranged conflict. A daring Operative who crossed the line, or get pulled over the line, would get rapidly murdered. In this scenario, 3/31/7 would be really useless. You will probably never even use a Debilitate for anything other than staving off your death for half a second.

 

2. Voidstar: Range problem? Maybe

Depending on whether you are attacking or defending, you might have a range problem with your spec if a 3/31/7 Op. On the offense, your range is not an issue. If you can get all up in the opponent's business and draw their attention and focus away from the door, you are doing your job. If you stealth over to the weak side door, you are almost guaranteed to get off your opening combo and mix it up at close range. Indeed, in that 1v1 context of Voidstar (or 1v2, 2v2, 2v1), you need to maximize your gritty, melee burst damage so you can strike and get a bomb down before reinforcements arrive.

Moreover, a low CD Debilitate is helpful in keeping defenders off a bomb planter. By a similar token, you really want to be fighting in melee range, not 30 meters, if taking a door., you want to be hidden from view of the other side, and melee attacks are the way to do this.

On defense, however, Ops have some range problems. Stepping out in the open kill zone of a door is certain death. Sneaking around to the back of healers will get you into range, but draws you away from your door; a death sentence if you are playing with unreliable pugs not in voice chat. Most of the time, you are going to hug the central pillars and bounce back and forth between sides, peeking to see if the bomb is getting planted. Shiv and Debilitate are rarely getting used, and rapid/effective heals are critical to maintain survivability.

Thus, in the Voidstar match, 3/31/7 is both a huge advantage and a noticeable detriment. On offense, you maximize your rapid fire burst damage at close range.. On defense, you lose some utility and damage.

 

3. Civil War/Novare: Range problem? No.

Both maps appear to have a lot of open spaces that are theoretically problematic for 3/31/7 Ops. In practice, however, there is almost no scenario where you can't close the distance and get in melee range with plenty of space for kiting and line of sighting. Civil War gives you the nodes and the small walls on the sides. At the center, you have the pillars and the underpass beneath the ramps. This gives you plenty of room to kite around and guarantee that you are always in melee range; when your opponent follows you around the corner, you can instantly get in their face.

The same is true of Novare. As long as you stick around the central hut, you can always lure people around corners and into melee range. You can also easily flank healers/snipers on the sandbags while avoiding LOS with the guys in the hut. This keeps you less exposed and more likely to maximize your melee power.

 

4. Huttball: Range Problem? No

The nice thing about Huttball is that the ball carrier is so darn slow, especially when in combat. This gives you a lot of windows to pounce in and unload your melee attacks. Even in a fight with non-ball carriers, there are plenty of areas where you can drop down a level and get a window to heal and re-close the distance. Besides, a 30 second CD Debilitate is itself brutal in Huttball. DB is just so powerful in tandem with Tendon Slash and the fire pits, whether in stopping the ball carrier, defending your own push, or in killing potential pass targets. This gives you a huge offensive role that you lose without the reduced DB cooldown.

 

With the exception of open world PvP, 3/31/7 really does not suffer from a range problem in my experience. We can theorize a dozen examples where Ops get into range trouble, but these scenarios rarely arise in warzones. For the vast majority of engagements, you can dictate the terms of the fight and maintain your melee advantage.

[LukeStormstout]

^^ hey, first step in the right direction, Next step: get rid of imperial brew take the healing increasing talent instead, get rid of the bs talents get the increased stealth detection talents instead, get rid of the damage talents in the lethality tree, put 1 point into the endurance talent and 2 into the push back protection (the last mentioned option will make you get heals of during pebble trow and force lightning, it also makes KI really worthwhile).

 

Test it, and thank me later.

 

Please post your spec if you can. I used a similar spec before I changed to healing. Have a good day.

[Bazzoong]

Here it is AGAIN:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McbMZMIRMddRbGR.1

 

I have discussed the pros in a number of threads, use the search function, thanks.

 

This is what I consider the best option for acid blade concealment for pvp as of 1.2.

 

(edit: sorry if this sounds rude, been to long no the pvp forum...)

Edited April 30, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Rizael]

Ok, I'll bite.... Let's assume you are correct which I don't believe you are.

 

What is your crit right now without the above consequence you outlined?

 

I have a plethera of reasons why I believe you are wrong in your assumption. And several assumptions you are making about my spec that I don't think you know anything about.

 

But, I'd rather hear your justification first instead of being overly critical. (No punn intended)

stats

 

Currently my crit is slightly lower than I want it to be, however this is only because my gear is not optimized as I am transitioning from BM to WH. with one more augment it will most likely be "on the mark" or very close to it. If your argument is going to be "your crit is too high" or something similar to that, for ANY value of crit with that talent you will be able to gain an additional power mod. Fact is that it is still an important skill (I know people got upset that it used to be 6), even though it has been nerfed.

 

I would be pleased if you could open my eyes about why your spec will increase burst damage (our class role) over the "tried and true" spec.