Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[LordRaeth]

What nonsense are you talking? None of my characters have warhero I'm not working wards replacing my Battlemaster for Warhero and I'm handling myself well. Battlemaster vs Warhero is not a guarantee loss unless you suck.

 

Don't you read? I don't have Battle master, I have mostly recruit and a bit of champion. I get 1 to 2 war zones an hour and face people in complete War Hero. I'm a Sniper as well and break as easily as standing on a ladybird, pvp is broken for me.

 

I prefer pvping by myself and fairly casual and for a casual player, again pvp is broken.

Edited May 8, 2012 by LordRaeth

[DarkDruidSS]

Don't you read? I don't have Battle master, I have mostly recruit and a bit of champion. I get 1 to 2 war zones an hour and face people in complete War Hero. I'm a Sniper as well and break as easily as standing on a ladybird, pvp is broken for me.

 

I prefer pvping by myself and fairly casual and for a casual player, again pvp is broken.

 

My 50 sin has all recruit gear except for a BM weapon and I can duel and beat full BM geared players. Snipers aren't gimp anymore since 1.2. I seriously doubt anyone has full War Hero yet. Most people have 3-4 pieces if they are lucky because most people are going for the expensive pieces first. Sounds like a lot of excuses to me.

[LordRaeth]

My 50 sin has all recruit gear except for a BM weapon and I can duel and beat full BM geared players. Snipers aren't gimp anymore since 1.2. I seriously doubt anyone has full War Hero yet. Most people have 3-4 pieces if they are lucky because most people are going for the expensive pieces first. Sounds like a lot of excuses to me.

 

My server has a least two premades with full war hero and snipers are still gimped since they are still affected by armour and shields, especially the sniper tree. It's not an excuse, come to twin spears if you want to see.

[DarkDruidSS]

My server has a least two premades with full war hero and snipers are still gimped since they are still affected by armour and shields, especially the sniper tree. It's not an excuse, come to twin spears if you want to see.

 

You could respec... lethality bypasses armor and can no longer be cleansed. Marksmanship which is our "sniper" tree got a lot of 5% damage buffs recently and it rocks... I have a 44 Sniper and that is my main tree because I dislike DoTs. Engineering got a significant boost as well with plasma probe being worth getting.

 

Most tank classes don't use shields because they are under the false assumption that shields are worthless... so most people don't actually shield your attacks... especially not in the 50s bracket when they are wearing DPS gear to be "uber".

 

Screen shots of these full premades with full War Hero please. You have 15 slots on your character. No way they have all 15 filled with War Hero gear... that is impossible due to time restraints alone. You only need 1 medal to get rewards in Warzones now.... so even if you got curb stomped you would get enough WZ comms to have a few pieces of BM gear if you really pvp'd like you talk about.

 

So yes, you are full of excuses with very little substance.

[LordRaeth]

I got one piece of BM, that's all I could afford just. I'll try get screenshots, but you know, 1-2 warzones an hour might take a while. Edited May 8, 2012 by LordRaeth

[LordRaeth]

Dunno if this helps, but first warzone i got in there was this player who almost had complete war hero apart from one or two minor bits.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/warhero1.jpg/

 

Also got another image of my team basically sat at the left base talking about it['s the only way to score anything.

 

Either way, I have no reason for lying, I'm genuinely not enjoying pvp as much as I was before and it can be down to a number of things but the fact remains, it's not enjoyable.

Edited May 8, 2012 by LordRaeth

[Jadescythe]

My server has a least two premades with full war hero and snipers are still gimped since they are still affected by armour and shields, especially the sniper tree. It's not an excuse, come to twin spears if you want to see.

 

That is the most outrageous statement I have seen yet. There are not 2 premades on a dead server in full war hero gear. WH gear costs 4500-10500 regular WZ comms each. Even if you are getting 200 WZ comms per game, it would take 22.5 games just to get a low end piece and 52.5 games for the top stuff. If your server is only allowing you to play 1-2 games per hour (which is probably 3-4 games which would be 30-50 minutes playing anyway) then it took 11-22.5 hours fo them to get the lowest piece and 26-52.5 hours to get the highest piece. Don't mistake having a WH chestpiece and headpiece as being fully WH geared.

[Darth_Vampirius]

Expertise does one thing: prevents carebears from dominating PVP. Tot that end, it works as intended. If you remove it, two things will happen...

 

#1 PVE raiders will automatically beat PVP players at their own game.

and

#2 BW will see another mass exodus of players leaving the game, but unlike the 400K who just left, the ones will will leave after this change will not come back. Ever.

 

So, to recap. If you want raiding to be the only way to advance, and you want the game's population to make a sharp decline, say no to expertise. If you want a healthy population with more ways to advance your character, say yes to expertise. There is no middle ground here. You can't have it both ways.

[LordRaeth]

That is the most outrageous statement I have seen yet. There are not 2 premades on a dead server in full war hero gear. WH gear costs 4500-10500 regular WZ comms each. Even if you are getting 200 WZ comms per game, it would take 22.5 games just to get a low end piece and 52.5 games for the top stuff. If your server is only allowing you to play 1-2 games per hour (which is probably 3-4 games which would be 30-50 minutes playing anyway) then it took 11-22.5 hours fo them to get the lowest piece and 26-52.5 hours to get the highest piece. Don't mistake having a WH chestpiece and headpiece as being fully WH geared.

 

Well I did't say it was dead, I said it was poorly populated, plus I'm from UK and my Guild chose a US server so it might not be populated very well for my play times, and these guys tend to play almost 24/7 anyway.

 

Take a look at the screenshot I took, that player has every armour piece apart from the belt.

Edited May 8, 2012 by LordRaeth

[LordRaeth]

Expertise does one thing: prevents carebears from dominating PVP. Tot that end, it works as intended. If you remove it, two things will happen...

 

#1 PVE raiders will automatically beat PVP players at their own game.

and

#2 BW will see another mass exodus of players leaving the game, but unlike the 400K who just left, the ones will will leave after this change will not come back. Ever.

 

So, to recap. If you want raiding to be the only way to advance, and you want the game's population to make a sharp decline, say no to expertise. If you want a healthy population with more ways to advance your character, say yes to expertise. There is no middle ground here. You can't have it both ways.

 

Erh you can't just put people into two categories, what about those who enjoy doing a bit of both or who are casual players?

 

What I want is an effective steady way of improving, not the drastic requirements which basically make it who ever has the most time gets the best gear. As soon as the rated pvp comes in, it'll probably become a lot better.

Edited May 8, 2012 by LordRaeth

[Jadescythe]

Well I did't say it was dead, I said it was poorly populated, plus I'm from UK and my Guild chose a US server so it might not be populated very well for my play times, and these guys tend to play almost 24/7 anyway.

 

Take a look at the screenshot I took, that player has every armour piece apart from the belt.

 

I looked after my post, appreciate you grabbing some evidence. That is only 4 pieces of WH gear btw and that is about a 40-60 total expertise difference between BM on my sorc at least. The mainhand and offhand are the expertise bonus where I picked up somewhere between 30-50 more expertise on the saber alone for my sorc and the offhand is the same..

[DarkDruidSS]

Dunno if this helps, but first warzone i got in there was this player who almost had complete war hero apart from one or two minor bits.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/warhero1.jpg/

 

Also got another image of my team basically sat at the left base talking about it['s the only way to score anything.

 

Either way, I have no reason for lying, I'm genuinely not enjoying pvp as much as I was before and it can be down to a number of things but the fact remains, it's not enjoyable.

 

Thanks for the screen shot. Now I will tell you what you are seeing. The person has orange War Hero gear. They most likely got a crafter to make the set pieces then filled the set pieces with the Battlemaster mods so that they are functional. This way they can have the new War Hero look even though it will take ages to get full War Hero gear. Once they get the new War Hero gear they can either swap out the mods again or just wear the purple item instead of the orange.

 

So basically people are doing this to get the War Hero look.... but they aren't full War Hero.

[Dcayd]

I'd like to see the dmg and healing increase dropped from expertise. Leave it as just a pvp defensive stat. I think the biggest reason the classes that dominate right now comes from all classes being pretty damn squishy, but a few have much more stellar def cd's making it easier for Healers to keep them alive. Removing the dmg buff would slow down combat enough to give players more time to react.

 

As it is now, if I don't have my cd already running and I get focused then theres no point in using it anyway because I'll be dead before a healer can get a heal off. I'm in full bm on my main, yet I can survive under fire much longer on my recruit geared alt just because of the CDs. A guildmate is playing a spec he hates because he dies in a stun in his preferred spec.

Increasing survival across the board wont make all classes balanced, but it allows for more flexibility than the current "Zerg target A" playstyle currently in place.

[Jadescythe]

Thanks for the screen shot. Now I will tell you what you are seeing. The person has orange War Hero gear. They most likely got a crafter to make the set pieces then filled the set pieces with the Battlemaster mods so that they are functional. This way they can have the new War Hero look even though it will take ages to get full War Hero gear. Once they get the new War Hero gear they can either swap out the mods again or just wear the purple item instead of the orange.

 

So basically people are doing this to get the War Hero look.... but they aren't full War Hero.

 

I thought about that too at first too, but the expertise is too high to only have BM stuff. Also, the BM mods don't transfer the set bonus from what I hear, only the WH gear does. Haven't actually tested that myself, waiting to get WH gear before I start doing that transfer because of the ridiculous cost to pull high level mods.

[DarkDruidSS]

I thought about that too at first too, but the expertise is too high to only have BM stuff. Also, the BM mods don't transfer the set bonus from what I hear, only the WH gear does. Haven't actually tested that myself, waiting to get WH gear before I start doing that transfer because of the ridiculous cost to pull high level mods.

 

It's hard to go of expertise values alone. The difference between full BM and full WH is 127 expertise. The black-green event crystal was the only war hero grade crystal that I can think of that you can get... which has +51 expertise. The other War Hero grade crystal with expertise has a ranked rating attached to it that no one can get currently. So the person in the pic has 1294 expertise which means he is +3 over the normal just straight expertise increase from WH. They do have a couple WH items, but if they were in full WH gear and had the crystal then it would be 1342 expertise.

 

You have to factor in the crystal because that is the only way to get over 1291 to my knowledge.. so they obviously have that pvp crystal slotted.

Edited May 8, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[DarthKhaos]

Don't you read? I don't have Battle master, I have mostly recruit and a bit of champion. I get 1 to 2 war zones an hour and face people in complete War Hero. I'm a Sniper as well and break as easily as standing on a ladybird, pvp is broken for me.

 

I prefer pvping by myself and fairly casual and for a casual player, again pvp is broken.

Dude you said "PvP is just about unplayable now unless you have the best pvp gear which is impossible to get if you're facing those who took advantage of the Ilum bug and have had the best pvp gear from the off." Battlemaster is not the best so me pointing it out shows your statement is false. Secondly you're complaining the starter gear is not as good as the top end gear and wonder why I look at you strange. It take minimum work to get full Battlemaster. Also you'll be better off swapping out the champion for recruit for more expertise unless you REALLY want that set bonus.

 

Don't be so quick to insult someone when you are not as knowledgeable about a subject.

[DarkHelsing]

Firstly not once have I mentioned WoW. I discussed why the stat is needed. In your entire rant how was these uber items achieved in Ultima Online? Via PvE. There was no way to get gear even if it's the same as PvE gear via PvP. This is a significent difference.

 

I'll say this again. In an MMO gear ALWAYS matter. Even if you didn't have any PvP gear those with better or higher tier gear is at an advantage against those who do not so those saying they don't want a gear vs gear game makes me laugh.

 

I'll break it down again for you. You have Basic, Intermediate and Advance gear. In PvE the difference in quality (or power) of the gear from Basic to Intermediate OR Intermediate to Advance is larger than it would be in PvP. Why? Because if the difference is small people would be able to skip Intermediate gear ans work straight to Advance gear. In PvP the difference is small so players have a fighting chance.

 

Then there's how fast you can achieve the gear or rate of progression. In PvP you need to have a faster rate of progression from Basic to Intermediate so that players can be competitive against those in Advance gear. If you have this progression take too long you will find less and less players PvPing because those in Advance gear dominating longer. The rate of progression from Intermediate to Advance can be much longer. In PvE however the rate of progression from Basic to Intermediate to Advanced should be a more linear.

 

If these two things are not put in place what would happen is PvErs would be forced to PvP for gear or vice versa.

Is this simple enough for you?

 

In addition you can have more progression points in PvE than PvP. If in patch 1.3 they decide to bring out another operation and tier of raid gear this would not affect PvP and they can keep adding more tiers of raids. Hell they only would have to adjust the Basic Intermediate & Advance gear for PvP if a level increase is implemented.

 

I totally disagree. I never had a problem understanding what you are saying, and I never say you mentioned WoW. It was a plain point that the person you were debating with knows many other games that functioned perfectly without Expertise, and I was pointing that out.

 

Gear vs Gear is not Player vs Player... those that need a Gear Advantage to win, or to think that Segregation is the only way to do it is just plain based of either total opinion or complete ignorance; because it is done in other games and done well in other games. If you disagree with that, then that is opinion, but the "fact" is other games don't make this separation and you kept stating that a game won't function without it. Well games do function without it, and they functioned just fine, so it can be done.

[DarkHelsing]

That is no not true, the difrens between BM and WC is not that big and if you done some WZ before 50 you should have so you can buy 1-2 pices of BM direct and then in 1week or so you have the full gear even if you lose alot.

 

The difference is big actually. This has been addressed in here.

[DarkHelsing]

My 50 sin has all recruit gear except for a BM weapon and I can duel and beat full BM geared players. Snipers aren't gimp anymore since 1.2. I seriously doubt anyone has full War Hero yet. Most people have 3-4 pieces if they are lucky because most people are going for the expensive pieces first. Sounds like a lot of excuses to me.

 

Then the players you are dueling are terrible at duels. And several people on my server are Full WH.

[DarkHelsing]

There's a lovely trick (non-exploit) to getting WH gear, and if no one here has figured that out by now, you might want to re-think how much you debate or argue on these forums because if you don't have a firm grasp on how the system is currently working, then you are just not prepared to debate it. Edited May 8, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarthKhaos]

Thanks for the screen shot. Now I will tell you what you are seeing. The person has orange War Hero gear. They most likely got a crafter to make the set pieces then filled the set pieces with the Battlemaster mods so that they are functional. This way they can have the new War Hero look even though it will take ages to get full War Hero gear. Once they get the new War Hero gear they can either swap out the mods again or just wear the purple item instead of the orange.

 

So basically people are doing this to get the War Hero look.... but they aren't full War Hero.

How much expertise is that? 1294? If that's the case that guy's gear is not warhero. Someone confirm how much Expertise is that please.

 

I totally disagree. I never had a problem understanding what you are saying, and I never say you mentioned WoW. It was a plain point that the person you were debating with knows many other games that functioned perfectly without Expertise, and I was pointing that out.

 

Gear vs Gear is not Player vs Player... those that need a Gear Advantage to win, or to think that Segregation is the only way to do it is just plain based of either total opinion or complete ignorance; because it is done in other games and done well in other games. If you disagree with that, then that is opinion, but the "fact" is other games don't make this separation and you kept stating that a game won't function without it. Well games do function without it, and they functioned just fine, so it can be done.

Yet he refused to outline how it should work and you appear not to fully understand what I said about Gear vs Gear. I would also like you to not make statements that implied I said something I did not.

 

MMOS are ALL about Gear .vs. Gear because the person with better gear is at a disadvantage and by having multiple tiers of gear you will ALWAYS have that.

I never said I or anyone needs a gear advantage if you notice I said that the progression from Basic to Intermediate is and should be fast so that you don't get face rolled by someone in the Advanced gear for an extended period of time. Because the gear difference is small skill compensates and it's less about gear vs gear.

 

I'm curious where do you see the flaw in what I was saying about difference in gear quality and rate of progression for PvP & PvE gear?

 

There's a lovely trick (non-exploit) to getting WH gear, and if no one here has figured that out by now, you might want to re-think how much you debate or argue on these forums because if you don't have a firm grasp on how the system is currently working, then you are just not prepared to debate it.

Any "trick" that allows you to get gear in a way that it wasn't intended is an exploit. I don't know about it because I do not need to gimmick my way to better gear to beat down players. I'm perfectly fine playing the game and not trying to trick my way to the top. I'm on top already without the top gear.

Edited May 8, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[DarkDruidSS]

I totally disagree. I never had a problem understanding what you are saying, and I never say you mentioned WoW. It was a plain point that the person you were debating with knows many other games that functioned perfectly without Expertise, and I was pointing that out.

 

Gear vs Gear is not Player vs Player... those that need a Gear Advantage to win, or to think that Segregation is the only way to do it is just plain based of either total opinion or complete ignorance; because it is done in other games and done well in other games. If you disagree with that, then that is opinion, but the "fact" is other games don't make this separation and you kept stating that a game won't function without it. Well games do function without it, and they functioned just fine, so it can be done.

 

It's always been about gear vs gear. We already had this conversation before. Name games that didn't have a gear advantage....

 

You will name a few... DAoC will be one of them at which point I will say true, but DAoC had rank abilities and unlocks... so there were other advantages to be had other than gear. You will probably say Lineage 1-2 and then I will point out that you could infact increase your weapons damage past base values at the risk of destroying your weapon permanently. Then you will spout more games all of which I can point to a gear advantage except for maybe Shadowbane or Ashron's Call... both of which didn't last long... so proof that gear vs gear is terrible is negated by the fact that games without gear advantages don't last long.

 

Then we are back at square one... Expertise is needed for games to thrive, unless of course the game is made specifically around PvP like GW2... which has zero pvp gear progression so it will be interesting to see how long the casuals play a game without progression. Then my point of True hardcore PvPers that don't care about gear progression and only skill vs skill are a smaller minority of the over all minorty of PvPers... which isn't enough to fuel a Pay to Play game anyway.

 

So games are made with PvE in mind and to balance it out you have a pvp specific stat.

[DarkHelsing]

Yet he refused to outline how it should work and you appear not to fully understand what I said about Gear vs Gear. I would also like you to not make statements that implied I said something I did not.

 

I did this already. Several times, the first time is the very second post in this entire thread, soo... if that's not enough for you, oh well.

 

MMOS are ALL about Gear .vs. Gear because the person with better gear is at a disadvantage and by having multiple tiers of gear you will ALWAYS have that.

 

All mmo's huh? Ever hear of a game called Guild Wars? So no, no no no no, and that's my point, you keep stating Black and White "all this..." and "every that..." and those are totally false statements. No, not ALL MMOs are GvG! If you can't accept that point then this will be my last response to you.

 

I never said I or anyone needs a gear advantage if you notice I said that the progression from Basic to Intermediate is and should be fast so that you don't get face rolled by someone in the Advanced gear for an extended period of time. Because the gear difference is small skill compensates and it's less about gear vs gear.

 

My point there was and is Expertise "gives a gear advantage/disadvantage". Not stating you said it, I'm stating that's what it creates, and I strongly disagree with it. If you don't agree or if you do, cool, but what I am stating is Expertise causes Gaps and Segregation that I disagree with.

 

I'm curious where do you see the flaw in what I was saying about difference in gear quality and rate of progression for PvP & PvE gear?

 

I don't remember addressing this topic at all. My response was merely to point out that you keep saying "all mmo's...." and that's not true, only some mmo's do the WoW/SWTOR thing, many others do not and work just fine.

 

 

Any "trick" that allows you to get gear in a way that it wasn't intended is an exploit. I don't know about it because I do not need to gimmick my way to better gear to beat down players. I'm perfectly fine playing the game and not trying to trick my way to the top. I'm on top already without the top gear.

 

Not true. For example - if Rifle A cost 200,000 credits, and Rifle B cost 1,000 credits, and Rifle B only has 3 less Endurance, buying the cheaper one is not Exploiting the game.

 

And if you like the game, why are you arguing with people that don't like the game? You'll never win the argument, you'll never win the debate, and our goal isn't to convince you of anything. It's pretty clear that less than a 10% margin in the Subjected poll means almost half the voters feel the system is broken... that message isn't for you or any other user.

[Khoraji]

This thread is still here?

 

The forums are full of QQ'ers, the OP is obviously biased for no expertise, and the poll is STILL in favor of keeping expertise. Argument over.

[DarkHelsing]

This thread is still here?

 

The forums are full of QQ'ers, the OP is obviously biased for no expertise, and the poll is STILL in favor of keeping expertise. Argument over.

 

Poll is working as intended.