Premades ruining the pvp of this game

[revampt]

There are only three serious disadvantage of a PUG versus premade:

 

1. The enemy might be specialized in certain maps. The best example of this is Huttball, though with 1.2 it's difficult to be a one map wonder team. Before 1.2, a premade that isn't good at anything except Huttball can still face roll even an equally geared opposition PUG just because that map demands very specific team setups.

 

2. The premade will generally have a gear advantage, possibly a very signifcant advantage.

 

3. The premade probably has at least one healer, while your PUG might have 0.

 

In the games where the PUG I get have at least one healer, and have comparable gear level as the enemy, I have no problem defeating enemy premades. No you're not going to be able to pull off a win when 3 of your guys have 12K HP in a PUG, but even the best premade with those 3 guys probably would still lose rather badly.

 

I guess im a lil bias because a play a fully geard healer so yeah i got the gear advantage and have a haler for sure,

 

Dont get me wrong tho i have been in baddddd pugs before only so much u can do as one person, but at the same time i have carried alot of pugs to victory just depends whos playing

[Astarica]

I guess im a lil bias because a play a fully geard healer so yeah i got the gear advantage and have a haler for sure,

 

Dont get me wrong tho i have been in baddddd pugs before only so much u can do as one person, but at the same time i have carried alot of pugs to victory just depends whos playing

 

Well geared healer pretty much only have to worry about the case where your PUG is just grossly outclassed (gear/class composition) and nobody can do anything about that. Even without a healer, you can usually put up a pretty good fight on Novare Coast/Alderran/Voidstar as PUG. Huttball is practically unwinnable in the 'no heals' scenario unless you've an amazing passing game.

 

Now that I think about it, I think premade's advantage is the biggest in Huttball, because it rewards gimmick team composition and the presence of a healer greatly. In all other 3 maps it is possible to kill your way to victory without heals, but this doesn't work in Huttball so the lack of a healer hurts the PUG greatly.

[Astarica]

Here's some thing to keep in mind. Truly great players are unlikely to act like a jerk to lesser players simply because if you always win, what reason would you have to put down a guy who can NEVER beat you? The guy who always wins have no problem being a graceful winner. There are obviously always exception to the rule but all the guys I've ran into who are truly great at this game are generally quite civil about it because they've nothing to prove or gain.

 

But those guys usually end up leaving the game because there is no challenge left, and SWTOR PvP isn't exactly that exciting to begin with. So the premades you still see are guys who aren't necessarily the best players on your server. Most likely they were beaten by another premade or even a PUG, so they're taking their frustration out on you. Today I drew up an especially bad PUG and I died 15 times against a premade that I often beat. I've never seen anyone die so many times even when I'm on games where we camped the enemy at the spawn point of Voidstar, and wouldn't be surprised if this is some kind of server/world record for most deaths in a WZ. But that's life. Does it suck to die 15 times and see every enemy just ran across any other guy on your team to kill you? Sure, but they probably feel pretty bad too all the times I beat them in a PUG too.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Astarica

[Totaltrash]

The REAL imbalancing factor is voice communication.

 

In objective-oriented warzones, communication is the key to success.

Typing in chat is simply too slow and too inefficient.

Any pre-made I've been on, used vent or skype - that's what made the difference, not gear, not skill.

 

While I do use vent whenever possible, I don't think it should be REQUIRED of people.

Nobody should be forced to install 3rd-party software and/or buy a headset just so they can enjoy balanced PVP here.

(just as nobody should be forced to install 3rd-party speedhacks to be competitive in pvp)

 

Hence, the idea of separating pre-made and solo queues has a lot of merit.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Totaltrash

[Astarica]

The REAL imbalancing factor is voice communication.

 

In objective-oriented warzones, communication is the key to success.

Typing in chat is simply too slow and too inefficient.

Any pre-made I've been on, used vent or skype - that's what made the difference, not gear, not skill.

 

While I do use vent whenever possible, I don't think it should be REQUIRED of people.

Nobody should be forced to install 3rd-party software and/or buy a headset just so they can enjoy balanced PVP here.

 

Hence, the idea of separating pre-made and solo queues has a lot of merit.

 

Since most objective maps have two points of interest to defend at most, if the enemy isn't at where you are they're probably heading or at the other point. No communication needed. A lot of people seems to think if there's a break in action in one part that means it's time to celebrate. No that means it's time to get to the other point. If you were in a close fight and suddenly start winning big, there's a very good chance that's because the enemy is now heading to the other point.

 

In Huttball the 'jump in place' method of indicating receiving status is is far more relibale than voice chat.

[kweassa]

I'mma repost what I said in a different thread a few days ago...

 

I don't presume to know how to fix the issue best, without stepping on anyone's toes. The problem for me personally (and I seriously doubt I am alone here) is that when you play the game the way I do, it just feels broken. I try to group PVP whenever possible but sometimes that just does't work out, or I just don't feel like getting on Vent/TS/whatever and just want to run by myself. The problem I run into is that it seems like literally 80% of the time, I will sit and wait anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes to get into a WZ and all too often it is against an imperial premade. I can't help but think that it's because of the population imbalance we have on my server (baelgoth's beacon).

 

This is a good example - this is just while I was que'ing by myself the other day. I know a lot of people might think I'm posting a couple unfortunate matches, but I promise super scout's honor I'm not. This is honestly what it's like 2/3's of the time. Yes, there are certain que times where I as republic can manage to win about 50% of the matches, but the vast majority of the time, this isn't abnormal.

 

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m33/Runzhouse/Screenshot_2012-04-22_17_09_03_799769.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m33/Runzhouse/Screenshot_2012-04-22_14_02_42_397553.jpg

 

I used to play MMO's more than I do now, fairly competitively in PVP on some of them. What I don't get is when I played in premade groups, I liked the challenge of playing against other premade groups. It was some of the most fun I've ever had in MMO's. Going up against pugs could be fun for a match or two, but after that I felt no different than how I imagine an aim-botter feels in MW. It's really discouraging to sit and invest time in a game only to have the fun you find in playing it taken away from you by something completely beyond your control. It doesn't make for a fun game.

 

Edit:

From talking to some of the imperials on my server, maybe population imbalance has a lot to do with it. They feel like they have a lot larger pool of people to group up with, including more healers. They say when they play their republic toons they just feel at a disadvantage due to having a gimped player pool to run with.

 

I truly believe that a lot of the disconnect players feel, solo PVPers and group PVPers alike, can be solved by 2 things. One is easy and already on the way - rated WZ's. The other is a little harder. The faction imbalance is killing this game. I really think BW needs to bite the bullet, merge some servers together and close creating imperial toons untill the population is more balanced. It's impossible to create a fair PVP environment when the numbers are skewed.

 

Which, is what we've been telling the people again and again. Good write up.

 

Premades, kill, PvP - when the imbalance in skill level between would-be WZ players exceed a certain level.

 

I've myself seen those situations repeating again and again, and knowing exactly who I am up against, each individual from that certain Imp guild, and now I actually even have a pretty accurate estimate on when those guys log on to the game - unfortunately, that time zone matches mine, and I'm not any college boy who can stay logged on for hours and hours and hours with a can of beer in my hand.

 

Like I always say, 16 years of PvP gaming. Taking a beating is something I can endure. The thing is, after repetition of such crushing defeat, people, log, off. They don't log on for the day. Make your own premade? We don't even have enough people to launch a WZ.

[dufox]

Uhh....Okay? Like I posted in another topic, people always need an excuse as to why they're losing. It blows my mind that they somehow see their losing as something that needs to be FIXED by the developers of the game.

 

What you're essentially complaining about is that your team is losing because the other team is communicating better. Think on how dumb that sounds.

 

this is 100% true lol.

1. your telling bioware to fix something you can fix yourself.

2. this is a massive multiplayer game that literally does everything it can to make people group up.

now in all fairness i understand solo quing can get ridiculous, but until cross server pvp comes out they would be punishing people who group que with longer wait times.

now if this happened more people would solo que. which to the untrained eye would be what your asking for... it is not.

MMO's encourage groups for a reason. if they ever give people a reason NOT to group its an over site that will be fixed rather quickly. (you should understand why)

 

basically rated and cross server pvp will fix this issue (for the most part) but until then i promise you bioware will not split up premades and solo ques

[Orangerascal]

If swtor wants to fix population imbalance.

 

Republic: +20% exp + 20% wz commendations +20% valour.

 

Problems solved.

 

 

It's amazing they just don't get this ..... of and a deserter debuff would be nice.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Orangerascal

[dufox]

as far as the faction imbalance problem, i have a story about my server that hopefully encourages others.

 

the server i play on (shadowtown) is dominated by sith. easily 4 to 1.

when we all first hit 50 we got steam rolled every game taking about 1 win out of 6.

when we went to ilum we was constantly outnumbered and would always get overpowered by sheer number.

THEN the unbelievable happened.

 

instead of rage quitting. we acknowledged the fact that we was gonna lose but refused to give up.

every night we would whisper people in other guilds lets get some premades going or lets do ilum. after a few weeks of this we started having 8 man premade warzones and 20 man ilum ops right at the start.

after a while that 20 man started getting so strong it took 2 ops parties to kill it.

the 8 man warzones started killing the 4 man battlemasters premades (bm was insane at the time)

 

when the 4 guilds realized how strong we got, we combined all 4 into one massive guild.

after the guilds merged the people who started farming ilum was able to start carrying guild mates in pvp until they started to learn the strats and get the gear.

this literally changed the pvp in our server. now republic dominates the pvp while empire rage about how much they cant stand winning 1 in 5 matches.

 

to say i am proud of the republic on our server is the understatement of the year. i have never seen anything like it before and i will never forget how everyone came together and fought instead of just giving up.

Edited April 27, 2012 by dufox

[Dustychild]

The Best pvp games are when every one gets on the same page.

 

Yes permade have an advantage on this but I have been on teams that have not only won but made the permade look really bad but on the other hand I seen per made face roll my team too. It take chat and learning the WZs. Seeing the way other teams works and what to look for.

 

Resently Rep group have been hitting west and the face rolling east while sending maybe 2 at south to distrack. in the new WZ. It has been a pain to get the Imp teams to counter that because the focuse has been the south with only 2 going east. I just use that to show you what I and slowly a few more imps are starting to see on my server.

 

I can chat all I want at the beginning and still 6 of 8 will run to mid. At the end of the lose I can then say told ya so simply by saying. hhmm maybe I seen that happen a few times before guys ( just before the game ends). That seems to have been making a differance because that last few days I have been getting more to help take east and slam west. Reversing the way that WZ has been played. It was not easy but sticking to it has helped tons.

 

Chat with your team mates and encourage changes and give advise and when they dont pay attention make sure to point it out. BUT HOW EVER NEVER CUSE AT THEM OR YOU LOSE ALL RESPECT FROM THEN AND THEY WONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY. I have several people on ignore just because they started cursing at the team because we were loosing.

[Orangerascal]

Sirlin is likely a scrub himself since he complained about using Akuma in SF2 being unfair. If he follows what he preaches, then using a character that automatically guaranteed victory is simply another step one should take to win at all costs.

 

unless it's illegal ... all tournaments banned him ... what's the point of practising with a character you can't use?

[Wbuller]

Only time when premades vs pugs have ever annoyed me was when I was freshly dinged 50 and had to fight vs high valor/ gear ppl.

I'm playing on a low pop server, and at certain times of the day (where I also had time to play), a pvp guild are doing premades. All valor rank 80++

They'd win 95% of all wz's they entered, and the combo of premade with good pvp gear vs my recruit gear could piss me off. Grinding the valor while getting owned bigtime was a tough road.

 

But now I have enough gear and expertise so that ppl will allow me in their premades.

If u don't have any friends to join with u, try throwing a shout at fleet. Often u'll be able to make a team:)

[Swijr]

Why is this even an issue? You have a "General Chat" right? Let me help you out.

 

1MLFG - Want to join a premade for lvl 50 pvp. I'm a lvl 50 "insert class here".

 

Now, just copy and paste that, add your class info and put that in general chat on your fleet when you're ready to fight.

 

Fixed.

 

 

/Thread

 

 

 

Swijr

[gwrtheyn]

Why is this even an issue? You have a "General Chat" right? Let me help you out.

 

1MLFG - Want to join a premade for lvl 50 pvp. I'm a lvl 50 "insert class here".

 

Now, just copy and paste that, add your class info and put that in general chat on your fleet when you're ready to fight.

Fixed.

/Thread

Swijr

 

most ppl do not want this,not a 20min+ grp search/gear check,vent join

they want some fast fun,premades ruin this fun,most ppl will not search like you posted,they will stop doing pvp(or stop playing this game)

 

ever played guild wars ? fast random pvp action and if you like it nice 8 vs 8 grp combat,both possible witout hurting each other(random que where a lot less premades @ the first months,so it was real fast fun pvp)

[Khoraji]

If swtor wants to fix population imbalance.

 

Republic: +20% exp + 20% wz commendations +20% valour.

 

Problems solved.

 

 

It's amazing they just don't get this ..... of and a deserter debuff would be nice.

 

Yea, that's fair... lol, The fact is, people think republic is lame. This is an RPG where people don't want to role-play a lame roll.

[Runzhouse]

I don't have a problem with premade PVP groups what so ever, you have to be able to play with your friends. I think that with population imbalances as they are, as a republic on a lower population server, when there's an imperial premade running, I will get paired against the same premade group for hours. When that happens, the game loses any appeal or entertainment value what so ever. Keep premades, I love running in them when I get the chance. The most fun I have is when my premade gets paired against an imp premade for a few rounds in a row. There just needs to be a higher population so that there is a larger pool of players you're queing against so you don't keep getting the same premade repeatedly. when you're playing solo I have literally had days where for 4 hours straight nearly every match was getting rolled by the same group.

 

As for everyone who says they've been in pugs that beat premades. Yes, that happens sometimes, but don't take a generally isolated occurrence and treat it as though it's normal.

[EugeneYap]

Pre-made is really unfair that I can agree but have to learn how to live with that.

 

What i can propose is premade can only matched up with other premade team

And if there is no other premade team then break them up 1st them randomly assign them of coz the team should be warned 1st if there is break up before entering the PVP(When the same factions are facing each other) .

Edited April 27, 2012 by EugeneYap

[gwrtheyn]

problem nearly solved,primetime you see nearly only premades

Pre4+Pre4 vs Pre4+PuG4(happend a lot today,if the PuG side gets a good one i can be fun)

 

atm i would guess a lot less ppl who qued solo stoped doing lv50 pvp or joined a premade.

 

Edit: btw 180+ ppl on fleet and que times over 10min

Edited April 28, 2012 by gwrtheyn

[rizBRAH]

Whats stopping you making a super co-ordinated and all mighty premade?

[V-Serp]

The REAL imbalancing factor is voice communication.

 

In objective-oriented warzones, communication is the key to success.

Typing in chat is simply too slow and too inefficient.

Any pre-made I've been on, used vent or skype - that's what made the difference, not gear, not skill.

 

While I do use vent whenever possible, I don't think it should be REQUIRED of people.

Nobody should be forced to install 3rd-party software and/or buy a headset just so they can enjoy balanced PVP here.

(just as nobody should be forced to install 3rd-party speedhacks to be competitive in pvp)

 

Hence, the idea of separating pre-made and solo queues has a lot of merit.

 

Anybody that is arguing this is probably unintelligent and a terrible player.

 

My suggestion would be to create two brackets. The pure solo queue bracket, and the any bracket. Anybody can queue up on the any bracket, premades of any sizes or solo players. But for the pure solo bracket, you're just going in alone, and you'll be against only other people that want the same thing.

 

I'm sure the premade forum warriors will find a way to whine about that. The thing is though, there are really only maybe 3 good premades on any server for any faction, and most of you likely aren't on that. I guess that's where so much of the fear comes from. Even the dumbest premade can eventually luck into playing against a bad PUG group, but if you think you'll only face good PUGs and other premades you'd be worried you can never win. So you've got to fight the queue separation as if your life depended on it.

 

Sad.

[RogueCody]

I don't have a problem with premade PVP groups what so ever, you have to be able to play with your friends. I think that with population imbalances as they are, as a republic on a lower population server, when there's an imperial premade running, I will get paired against the same premade group for hours. When that happens, the game loses any appeal or entertainment value what so ever. Keep premades, I love running in them when I get the chance. The most fun I have is when my premade gets paired against an imp premade for a few rounds in a row. There just needs to be a higher population so that there is a larger pool of players you're queing against so you don't keep getting the same premade repeatedly. when you're playing solo I have literally had days where for 4 hours straight nearly every match was getting rolled by the same group.

 

As for everyone who says they've been in pugs that beat premades. Yes, that happens sometimes, but don't take a generally isolated occurrence and treat it as though it's normal.

 

Exactly this. I"m Currently on a server where there is 2 guilds that run premade PvP groups and neither are looking for other members for pvp. (I've asked trust me)

 

When they run a group if your in a pug at the time you don't win. PERIOD.

 

Pugs can try to coordinate all they want on chat, but that still will not compare to the coordination of a premade not including there superior class composition. (You ever joined a pug with no healer against a premade with at least 3? One guess how it turns out.)

 

Yet again I love the idea of premades and think they're a great and needed thing for MMO games. But sadly the more this game dies and the more Bioware does nothing to fix it the more and more this will turn into a constant premade versus pug scenario.

 

I can only imagine the new people just getting to 50 in recruit gear trying to farm gear to be gaining only 40 to 50 Commendations a match as well as losing almost every single game.

 

Bet they're having fun......

Edited May 17, 2012 by RogueCody

[Zepidel]

I'mma repost what I said in a different thread a few days ago...

 

I don't presume to know how to fix the issue best, without stepping on anyone's toes. The problem for me personally (and I seriously doubt I am alone here) is that when you play the game the way I do, it just feels broken. I try to group PVP whenever possible but sometimes that just does't work out, or I just don't feel like getting on Vent/TS/whatever and just want to run by myself. The problem I run into is that it seems like literally 80% of the time, I will sit and wait anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes to get into a WZ and all too often it is against an imperial premade. I can't help but think that it's because of the population imbalance we have on my server (baelgoth's beacon).

 

This is a good example - this is just while I was que'ing by myself the other day. I know a lot of people might think I'm posting a couple unfortunate matches, but I promise super scout's honor I'm not. This is honestly what it's like 2/3's of the time. Yes, there are certain que times where I as republic can manage to win about 50% of the matches, but the vast majority of the time, this isn't abnormal.

 

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m33/Runzhouse/Screenshot_2012-04-22_17_09_03_799769.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m33/Runzhouse/Screenshot_2012-04-22_14_02_42_397553.jpg

 

I used to play MMO's more than I do now, fairly competitively in PVP on some of them. What I don't get is when I played in premade groups, I liked the challenge of playing against other premade groups. It was some of the most fun I've ever had in MMO's. Going up against pugs could be fun for a match or two, but after that I felt no different than how I imagine an aim-botter feels in MW. It's really discouraging to sit and invest time in a game only to have the fun you find in playing it taken away from you by something completely beyond your control. It doesn't make for a fun game.

 

Edit:

From talking to some of the imperials on my server, maybe population imbalance has a lot to do with it. They feel like they have a lot larger pool of people to group up with, including more healers. They say when they play their republic toons they just feel at a disadvantage due to having a gimped player pool to run with.

 

I truly believe that a lot of the disconnect players feel, solo PVPers and group PVPers alike, can be solved by 2 things. One is easy and already on the way - rated WZ's. The other is a little harder. The faction imbalance is killing this game. I really think BW needs to bite the bullet, merge some servers together and close creating imperial toons untill the population is more balanced. It's impossible to create a fair PVP environment when the numbers are skewed.

 

They had a double premade and they let you get 10 kills while only getting 20 themselves? Not impressed.

 

Also I generally Que with people I know are not bad because quintupling the dmg of the next highest pub on a scrapper makes me want to punch kittens. Most of the time TS isn't even necessary, being with at least four players who are good is enough to win every WZ.

[Arkia]

I think part of the problem or most of it frankly is that their are cheats out there that people use. Speed hacks, damage hacks. I don't mind losing and there's always a better pvp player on the other side. BW needs to address the 3rd party programs and I think quite a few issues will disappear.

 

Regarding premades I don't see what the issue is with them. They are viable and you need to sit there and use the 90s u get before the match starts to come up with a plan to deal with one of these.

[Locksley]

I think part of the problem or most of it frankly is that their are cheats out there that people use. Speed hacks, damage hacks. I don't mind losing and there's always a better pvp player on the other side. BW needs to address the 3rd party programs and I think quite a few issues will disappear.

 

Regarding premades I don't see what the issue is with them. They are viable and you need to sit there and use the 90s u get before the match starts to come up with a plan to deal with one of these.

 

I totally agree with this. I've been face rolled by some premades but ive also been the one face rolling. I don't like the fact folk are suggesting you shouldn't be able to group with four of your friends. This is a MMO so the idea is you play with others. I for one am looking forward to being in 8 man premades more so that i don't have to play with folk that wont work as a team. I've met good players q'n solo and being asked if I want to group point is if you stay at it and do the basics right your get better and people will ask you to be in their group. But as the guy I quoted said, if folk use 3rd party programmes then your stuffed regardless.

 

Some don't want to be in groups for what ever reason and that's fine, its your call but lets not get bent out of shape because some do.

[V-Serp]

Solo queuers are in the huge minority. I don't believe that 75% number people throw around here, honestly if 75% of people were PUGs, and they were just getting beat on, I don't think there would be any queues and I don't think you'd see the universal support for premades that we always see on the forums. Everyone on the forums always mentions their premades, not solo queuing.

 

I think it's probably more that 75% of people are in premades, and only 25% solo queue. Yes maybe occasionally some people in premades solo queue, but they don't care because they are usually in premades so when they're in solo queue it isn't a big deal.

 

I don't play MMOs usually. I played WoW for about 2 months and hated it, and gave SWTOR a chance because of Bioware but I don't really like this either. None of my real life friends play MMOs, some did for a short period but everyone has dropped it and the majority really seem to hate the genre. For MMOs you really need to have a group of friends that like playing the game and you need to play with them, otherwise you're wasting your time.

 

Now when I play games, I generally am not going to just play with friends. When I meet up with friends it's usually to play sports, watch sports, drink or otherwise hang out in person. We don't really play games. The exception is for a few I used to play competitive games, like fighting games or RTS. Several of my friends have mentioned DIablo 3 recently so that's another option for me to play. I've never been a fan of voice comm with strangers or even with friends, I'm just not a guy that talks on the phone much and neither are any of my friends. I'm a guy so that isn't really rare, most guys generally only talk to girls on the phone, but even girls these days are apt to send texts rather than make phone calls. Regardless, it's not something I'm interested in just to play an MMO, not when other genres don't need it at all.

 

So I realized that MMOs just aren't for me. Complaining to get the genre changed is just silly. I've made several complaints recently about the game but I think they all boil down to me just not liking the genre. You can't expect an entire genre to change for you, there are so many other options for people to enjoy that you definitely don't even need it anyway, instead people should go play something they do enjoy. Since I'm big on skill based play and not gear progression, and for games to be of equal footing and in general also one on one play rather than team play, for me fighting games, strategy and RTS make a lot of sense. A lot of other people like a team aspect, either PUG or premade, and for them both FPS and RTS can make a lot of sense. There's even racing games or a ton of other options, just got to find something you enjoy.

 

TLDR: It's not premades vs solo at all, it's the genre. If you don't enjoy it, just play a different one! The genre isn't going to change and you won't suddenly enjoy it even if they tried to change it.