Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Elhanan]

Per a clarification provided by a GM who responded to a report I filled against a higher-level character that was camping me, grieffing requires one to be actively prevented from participating in game content altogether. In essence, grieffing is the same thing as harassment, and if you can do something else where the player can not or will not bother you, it is not actionable. Retreating to a safe area to run Warzones of FPs, returning to your ship to run space missions, changing planet instances, and simply moving to a different area of a planet, or another planet altogether, are valid methods of overcoming grieffing. As such, a player has to show effort in interrupting all these avenues of play before the situation is actionable.

 

For this reason, grieffing is almost never acted upon, and when it is it usually involves players belonging to the same faction.

 

In the case of the event, grieffing was not occurring. The plague, as well as the spreading of the plague, were intentional game play mechanics. Becoming infected did not prevent you from taking part in the rest of the game's content. It was part of the story and lore behind the event, as was the need to remain vigilant if you wished to avoid infection.

 

Sorry; not paying my sub to allow virtual vermin purposely spoil my play. I shall report, and allow Bioware to decide, but will appeal such a decision as fervently as possible.That GM call is wrong, IMO.

 

And Griefing did occur, whether it is the exploitation of the mechanics, or in some other form. While breaking the rules may not always be Griefing, it still can be actionable under another context.

[Elhanan]

The price of the vaccines were not an issue in any way. At least not for my main or my low level alts. I mean, you could get them for free just by doing one or two of the daily missions attached to the event.

 

And if the event was something you WANTED to be part of, then there was no reason to have the vaccines. Getting infected and infecting others was a big part of it. I think I had a number of vaccines in my inventory when the event ended.

 

You could have even asked others if they were willing to give up their vaccines. I'm sure someone would have helped you out.

 

Besides, 2k isn't that much.

 

If those Dalies were on Tatooine, my 10th BH would have had to hitch a ride, as he had no ship; reason for taking Shuttles in the first place. And given that on equal lvl footing, my characters die frequently, it is highly unlikely that I would have survived the PvE content, let alone other Players.

 

And I call 30%+ of your resources a tad expensive; matter of perspective.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Sireene
quote of edited post

[Elhanan]

What were you prevented from doing due to being infected OP?

 

Please don't use the word "griefing" when you were inconvenienced in some minor way.

You diminish the whole idea of what griefing is - player harassment.

 

Some kid skateboarding past you, bumping into you and causing you to drop your freezie on a hot summer day is not a symptom of "hooliganism", "violent attacks by youngsters" and "yob culture" regardless of the fact that you lost your freezie.

 

I was prevented from going to my shuttle on the Fleet uninfected froim a fatal disease; one described IG as the worst in the Galaxy. It wasn't dropped ice cream; it was a Player that chose to be an explosive weapon at the Med Station.

 

But the degree of offense is for the GM to decide; not the Players. If the same children keep spilling their dessert they should not have any. Again, IMO.

[Liquidacid]

lol @ calling a harmless event mechanic that was working as intended griefing...

 

another player killed me once on a PVP server when I said not to... he was griefing!

 

oh the humanity !!! my entire life is ruined now.. it gave me PTSD

Edited April 25, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Elhanan]

Funny, is whining about what is happening to you character in a game not a "special" phenomenon?

 

I´m sure there will be the day when some loony emotionally disturbed carebear will sue another player for a million dollars because he has been traumatized for being virtually killed by a lightsaber or infected by the evil Rakghoul virus.

First world problems. Some people should get a grip or stop gaming, seems like virtual worlds have a negative impact on simple minds.

 

From "The Urban Dictionary":

 

"Care Bear"

234 up, 33 down

1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths.

 

Funny that; did not die. Thanks for sharing!

[Shaidown]

The Rakghoul Plague, well, there was vaccine, so not too bad.

 

The exploiting of AoE to flag another person is just that, an exploit. Report them for it, names, levels, class, AC, time, place, circumstances, and server, plus your information as well. Forced into PvP while you are questing and fighting a mob, is a cowardly way to "gain" a kill for lowly griefers, and is an exploit that does need to be rectified.

 

This exploit has been going on for months, or since BETA and or release.

 

Back on Hoth I was solo questing, attacked a mob with 2 Strong in it, as a tank I used an AoE (Wither) as did Khem, found myself dead ??? and Flagged PvP and saw 4 Republics leaving me. Bad enough I was engaged in a fight, worse they exploited me into PvP mode, worse still it took 4??? of them to kill me with a mob too? (that's why cowards and lowly, and without any honor). As I went around in the tunnels I noticed a lot of other single Imperials lying dead on the ground so it was not just me.

 

Fix the forced PvP Exploit, Please BW.

 

Thats not an exploit at all... you just need to pay more attention to your surroundings

[HeavensAgent]

Sorry; not paying my sub to allow virtual vermin purposely spoil my play. I shall report, and allow Bioware to decide, but will appeal such a decision as fervently as possible.That GM call is wrong, IMO.

 

And Griefing did occur, whether it is the exploitation of the mechanics, or in some other form. While breaking the rules may not always be Griefing, it still can be actionable under another context.

Then don't pay your sub.

 

You asked for a clarification of what griefing is in the mind of Bioware. All I provided was the answer to your question. You can report players for what you perceive as greifing all you want, but nothing will come of it. It's up to you how you respond to the situation.

 

Incidentally, per your definition of the term, what you are advocating in this thread, and the specific situation in which this occurred, you were actually grefing other players. The Plague infection, and the intentional spreading of that infection to anyone, was a designed mechanic and stated objective of the event. By attempting to restrict players from spreading it freely, you were attempting to interfere with their game play. In that situation you would be the griefer, per your own words.

[Evangolis]

Thats not an exploit at all... you just need to pay more attention to your surroundings

Its an exploit if you choose to except it or not. Had two lowbie guildies done this way. None we're flagged but got burned down by two Dbag 50 lvl republic shadows doing that trash. So tell someone else that horse crap.

[-Sev]

what griefing? All you had to do was take a rakghoul serum and you'd be immune to the plague.

 

. ^

[Yescek]

It's a plague... it's not supposed to be sunshine and roses.

If nobody got even just a little upset at the inconvenience of it, I'd say it was a failure as a theme. I mean unless it's gamebreaking. But it wasn't.

 

This.

 

Overall fail thread imo.

[GnatB]

Griefing did (and still is, for that matter) occur.

 

Griefing is simply negatively impacting on others gameplay for the pure enjoyment of inflicting said negative impact. Now, you can debate all you like which actions are griefing, and which griefing actions are actionable.

 

Which actions are griefing? Hard to say. Negative impact is frequently in the mind of the "victim". Some people may enjoy the risk of being attacked by higher level players at any time, and the challenge of finding a solution. So to them, ganking may not be griefing. To most, it would be.

 

Now, even if we establish that a particular action is negatively affecting the victim, and even if the instigator is doing it purely for the enjoyment that brings him, that doesn't neccessarily means it's actionable. A large part of "griefing" is the intent. Some actions that are done to get a kick out of negatively affecting other players gameplay may have some benefit to the player other than said enjoyment. Undercutting other players in the GTN, for instance. I get the sale, they don't. Now, if I'm doing it *purely* to piss off other players, I'm griefing. But is it actionable? Not really. There's no way for anybody else to tell that I'm not just a savvy business person trying to get the sale even if it means lower/no profit. Smart developers try to limit that sort of benefit from "griefable" opportunities, so that when a victim complains about griefing, it is easy to determine what the instigators motives likely were. If the only possible reason for the behavior was, in fact, to negatively impact the victims gameplay, then hey. They know it's griefing and can take action.

 

This plague thing fails that test. It was easy to use it to grief and, because there were in fact valid reasons to use it, it was not possible to take action against said griefers, as *possible* they were legitimately "playing the game". Adding such a "non-actionable" methodsof griefing for no real good reason is pure bad design. (some, you can't really avoid, like undercutting on the GTN. This, however could have EASILY been avoided)

 

edit: And P.S. whomever it was still running around infecting people by the GTN's last night was definitely griefing, since the event is over and the rewards are no longer there. So the only possible reason for such action would be the enjoyment of annoying other players. i.e. griefing.

Edited April 25, 2012 by GnatB

[Kfab]

This.

 

Overall fail thread imo.

 

I think that the overall complaint in this thread is the fact that the plague caused PvE players to auto flag PvP only to be griefed. As a result, the PvP'ers took full advantage of it which brought us all back to the PvE players not having to be "forced" to PvP weather it's via the plague or their use of an AOE.

 

Was the plague game breaking to me, no. Then again, I wasn't forced to log out being corpse camped by the med droid. That to me, would make me think twice about resubbing.

 

TLDR - If you want forced world PvP roll on a PvP server. Blizzard needs to fix the way people on a PvE server can be autoflagged, thereby forcing them into PvP.

[Drakkip]

Thats not an exploit at all... you just need to pay more attention to your surroundings

 

Found here:

http://www.swtor.com/info/faq/game

 

Yes. The Old Republic will offer different server types that emphasize the following styles of game play:

 

Player-vs–Environment (PvE)

 

On Player-vs-Environment servers, you have the option to role-play as your character, and player-vs-player fights must be agreed to by both sides or conducted in PvP-designated areas.

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

I fail to see how a stealther running into your AE constitutes consent, or an opposition flagged player running up to you exploded constitutes consent. By several accounts, this was occuring outside of designated PvP areas.

 

If it breaks the rules, it breaks the rules, I don't get why peoople think that a game mechanic that breaks the rules must be ok, OR that the person who was the "victim" of it must be the one who was at fault and should "be more aware"

[Tatebomb]

I think that the overall complaint in this thread is the fact that the plague caused PvE players to auto flag PvP only to be griefed. As a result, the PvP'ers took full advantage of it which brought us all back to the PvE players not having to be "forced" to PvP weather it's via the plague or their use of an AOE.

 

Was the plague game breaking to me, no. Then again, I wasn't forced to log out being corpse camped by the med droid. That to me, would make me think twice about resubbing.

 

TLDR - If you want forced world PvP roll on a PvP server. Blizzard needs to fix the way people on a PvE server can be autoflagged, thereby forcing them into PvP.

 

Blizzard? Lol.

[Kfab]

Blizzard? Lol.

 

LOL I'm fail!

[Holden_Dissent]

It's not the first time someone said Blizzard or WoW today on accident.

[VicSkimmr]

I think that the overall complaint in this thread is the fact that the plague caused PvE players to auto flag PvP only to be griefed. As a result, the PvP'ers took full advantage of it which brought us all back to the PvE players not having to be "forced" to PvP weather it's via the plague or their use of an AOE.

.

 

That might be the overall complaint, but it isn't what the OP was referring to. What you mentioned is most definitely something that should have been prevented. What the OP is referring to is hilarious and makes me want to track him down and give him the plague.

[Elhanan]

Then don't pay your sub.

 

You asked for a clarification of what griefing is in the mind of Bioware. All I provided was the answer to your question. You can report players for what you perceive as greifing all you want, but nothing will come of it. It's up to you how you respond to the situation.

 

Incidentally, per your definition of the term, what you are advocating in this thread, and the specific situation in which this occurred, you were actually grefing other players. The Plague infection, and the intentional spreading of that infection to anyone, was a designed mechanic and stated objective of the event. By attempting to restrict players from spreading it freely, you were attempting to interfere with their game play. In that situation you would be the griefer, per your own words.

 

Sorry, but I did not restrict the game for anyone, but thanks for the thought. Calling a Griefer by their proper title is not harassment, I don't believe.

 

I asked Bioware for greater clarity of their own rules; ratther reluctant to accept what others wish them to say. And you are entitled to this opinion, as I also have the right to mine.

[GnatB]

That might be the overall complaint, but it isn't what the OP was referring to. What you mentioned is most definitely something that should have been prevented. What the OP is referring to is hilarious and makes me want to track him down and give him the plague.

 

So, you admit you're a griefer, and furthormore you admit you would use the plague to do your griefing. You know the OP doesn't find the plague enjoyable. So you want to get him infected simply because you find that hilarious and want to see him suffer it. That's pretty much the definition of griefing, so I think you may have just made the OP's point.

[Urael]

So, you admit you're a griefer, and furthormore you admit you would use the plague to do your griefing. You know the OP doesn't find the plague enjoyable. So you want to get him infected simply because you find that hilarious and want to see him suffer it. That's pretty much the definition of griefing, so I think you may have just made the OP's point.

 

QFT! ^This!

Edited April 25, 2012 by Urael

[Elhanan]

So, you admit you're a griefer, and furthormore you admit you would use the plague to do your griefing. You know the OP doesn't find the plague enjoyable. So you want to get him infected simply because you find that hilarious and want to see him suffer it. That's pretty much the definition of griefing, so I think you may have just made the OP's point.

 

So much better than my planned reply! *applesauce*

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Malastare]

I was prevented from going to my shuttle on the Fleet uninfected froim a fatal disease;

 

No. You were subjected to a game mechanic during the course of play.

 

In the game universe, there was a Rakghoul Plague Pandemic. Under that circumstance, it would seem completely plausible that you would get infected by some other infected person. The fact that they were near a Med Station (seeking medical attention) or a Shuttle Bay (trying to escape/get home) would be totally believable.

 

I don't know where you got the idea that there was a guarantee that you were absolutely safe while on your way to the shuttle. There is no such guarantee. There's no real guarantee that you're safe anywhere. If you're not okay with that, then perhaps an MMO isn't the best game style for you.

[Keypek]

Some people will never be happy. And those people should always be ignored in life.

[Urael]

Some people will never be happy. And those people should always be ignored in life.

 

You mean like the people that post in threads they don't agree with to state that the OP of the thread they disagree with should be ignored?

 

If so then I agree with you.