Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Elhanan]

Now that the first Event is a part of TOR history, I would ask Bioware and the community as a whole to improve the game by better defining what is intended to be seen as Griefing, aid the Players in seeing it removed, and disciplining those that are found guilty of using such methods in spoiling the play of others.

 

In the Event, game mechanics were used to interfere with the play of those not wanting to join the Event, simply shop at various stores, and travel across the Galactic map by crippling the Fleet areas. Camping was seen on the Fleet, as well as various markets, Med Stations, and Rest Zones ther and on planets. Mechanics apparently were used to exploit the PvP rules, and ruin play of others. Etc.

 

This is all Griefing in my opinion, but it is the opinion of Bioware iwhich needs to be better clarified, posted, and enforced. If Players believe that the situations are too vague and left unattended, they may not report violations. If the PvP rules are not clarified, we do not know what are considered Safe Zones and illegal mechanics. And this game belongs to us all in some part.

 

I believe all of us seek to better the game, and hope for improved environs in which to play them; not repeating the mistakes of other MMO's and allowing Griefing to gain a foothold and define play would seem to be a valuable place to start.

 

Constructive thoughts?

[TheNevet]

What griefing? All you had to do was take a rakghoul serum and you'd be immune to the plague.

[Andymantium]

The pvp flagging thing shouldn't have happened for pve servers. As for being involuntarily infected, they provided access to a vaccine.

[Monoth]

All Bioware had to do is have some Elite Containment Soldiers patrol the Space Station and take out anyone who is infected.... This would of kept the Space Station free of the disease and discourage players from camping on the station and provide a safe zone....

 

Their other mistake was they should of made the serum free instead of charging 2k credits.....

 

Pretty simple solution but as usually over looked by Bioware....

Edited April 24, 2012 by Monoth

[Sporticus]

OP, you'll have to be more specific in your complaints as to what was or wasn't happening that you think 'might' have been griefing. Considering the minimal disruption caused by getting infected, it is hard to believe anyone would classify a bunch of people camping on the fleet waiting to blow up as griefing. Add to that the fact that the syrum was easily attainable AND had a 6 hour duration (I think?) and your argument for griefing becomes even weaker.

 

Hopefully, BW doesn't classify ANY of these very minor events as griefing. This game is already 100% geared towards casuals and has enough carebear aspects. That isn't so much a complaint from me as it is an observation, by the way. I don't like carebear games all that much, but am mature enough to adapt and deal.

 

On Shadowtown last night we had 8-12 imps all ungrouped with their companions out camping the event vendor and preventing any of us Republics from making last minute purchases. Would that be griefing in your book? For us it was just a nice opportunity to gruop up and have a big fight followed by us camping THEM at the vendor and causing their lowbies a comparable amount of distress. This was on a PvP server though, so you have to click 'yes' to the disclaimer about getting exploded while you quest.

[Elhanan]

The pvp flagging thing shouldn't have happened for pve servers. As for being involuntarily infected, they provided access to a vaccine.

 

The 2k fee was a bit steep for my 10th moving from Shuttle to Shuttle, and not all worlds had access to the serum before entering the 'security' of the Fleet, I believe.

 

Capitol planets had Players trying to infect others at the markets, and these low lvl areas should have been Off Limits, IMO.

[-Dench]

I didnt notice any griefing going on, and I play on a PVP server.

[Esproc]

The Rakghoul Plague, well, there was vaccine, so not too bad.

 

The exploiting of AoE to flag another person is just that, an exploit. Report them for it, names, levels, class, AC, time, place, circumstances, and server, plus your information as well. Forced into PvP while you are questing and fighting a mob, is a cowardly way to "gain" a kill for lowly griefers, and is an exploit that does need to be rectified.

 

This exploit has been going on for months, or since BETA and or release.

 

Back on Hoth I was solo questing, attacked a mob with 2 Strong in it, as a tank I used an AoE (Wither) as did Khem, found myself dead ??? and Flagged PvP and saw 4 Republics leaving me. Bad enough I was engaged in a fight, worse they exploited me into PvP mode, worse still it took 4??? of them to kill me with a mob too? (that's why cowards and lowly, and without any honor). As I went around in the tunnels I noticed a lot of other single Imperials lying dead on the ground so it was not just me.

 

Fix the forced PvP Exploit, Please BW.

[Journeyer]

Being able to infect other players is part of the world event.

 

First, people complained that nothing was ever happening in game to involve players. Then, when stuff happens in game, they don't want to be involved. You can only make 85% of us happy, it seems.

 

The flagging for PvP on infection should *not* have happened. Given the large number of players doing the world event content, I did not find it at all difficult to get help fighting off Imps the couple times it happened to me over the last 10 days, but I do understand the valid concerns* of PvE "purists."

 

*whiny tendencies

[Stenrik]

It's a plague... it's not supposed to be sunshine and roses.

If nobody got even just a little upset at the inconvenience of it, I'd say it was a failure as a theme. I mean unless it's gamebreaking. But it wasn't.

[FatherGrimm]

Bioware has never even publicly acknowledged that the involuntary PvP flagging (and subsequent ganking) was either intentional or unintentional, and did not even acknowledge that it was an exploit that would lead to disciplinary action.

 

You just don't do that kind of crap to your PvE customer base. Even SOE isn't that low. No warning, no apology, no fix. And now, no customer, too.

[Monoth]

OP, you'll have to be more specific in your complaints as to what was or wasn't happening that you think 'might' have been griefing. Considering the minimal disruption caused by getting infected, it is hard to believe anyone would classify a bunch of people camping on the fleet waiting to blow up as griefing. Add to that the fact that the syrum was easily attainable AND had a 6 hour duration (I think?) and your argument for griefing becomes even weaker.

 

Hopefully, BW doesn't classify ANY of these very minor events as griefing. This game is already 100% geared towards casuals and has enough carebear aspects. That isn't so much a complaint from me as it is an observation, by the way. I don't like carebear games all that much, but am mature enough to adapt and deal.

 

On Shadowtown last night we had 8-12 imps all ungrouped with their companions out camping the event vendor and preventing any of us Republics from making last minute purchases. Would that be griefing in your book? For us it was just a nice opportunity to gruop up and have a big fight followed by us camping THEM at the vendor and causing their lowbies a comparable amount of distress. This was on a PvP server though, so you have to click 'yes' to the disclaimer about getting exploded while you quest.

 

If you don't want to be infected you have to take a serum everytime you die..... which can get expensive if you die alot.... As someone else mentioned people were using the disease to flag other people for PvP on PvE servers.... Although I have to admit it was some of the best Open World PvP in a long time, the only issue was some people were being forced into PvP because of it.... Which is fine on a PvP server but was a big issue on PvE servers where some players hate PvP with a passion....

 

Overall I liked the event, I just wish Bioware would of thought out a few things before implementing it.... like not making serums a money sink for people who wanted to avoid the event....

[Veluthurk]

That "other" game had a similar event years back and similar issues were brought up. Are we doomed to repeat all "their" mistakes? A little bit of foresight on BW's part will save a few subscriptions and that can't be a bad thing at this point.

[ekwalizer]

My biggest beefs with this event:

1. Level 10s freshly arriving at the fleet had their game play impacted by this. Many can't afford the 2k for a serum, as they have just bought gear or an inventory slot. The serum should have been much, much cheaper.

2. The serum didn't persist through death, but the virus did (until you explode). This meant that as a PvPer with no interest in this event, I needed to carry dozens of serums with me at all times.

[Elhanan]

OP, you'll have to be more specific in your complaints as to what was or wasn't happening that you think 'might' have been griefing. Considering the minimal disruption caused by getting infected, it is hard to believe anyone would classify a bunch of people camping on the fleet waiting to blow up as griefing. Add to that the fact that the syrum was easily attainable AND had a 6 hour duration (I think?) and your argument for griefing becomes even weaker.

 

Hopefully, BW doesn't classify ANY of these very minor events as griefing. This game is already 100% geared towards casuals and has enough carebear aspects. That isn't so much a complaint from me as it is an observation, by the way. I don't like carebear games all that much, but am mature enough to adapt and deal.

 

On Shadowtown last night we had 8-12 imps all ungrouped with their companions out camping the event vendor and preventing any of us Republics from making last minute purchases. Would that be griefing in your book? For us it was just a nice opportunity to gruop up and have a big fight followed by us camping THEM at the vendor and causing their lowbies a comparable amount of distress. This was on a PvP server though, so you have to click 'yes' to the disclaimer about getting exploded while you quest.

 

For myself, it happened on the first Event night; infected at the Med Station while pricing the serum announced over the speakers. 2k out of a starting purse of 6k was a bit high, and I would have preffered to have remained out of Event play.And I choose to play PvE.

 

Later, this alt was twice approached on the Capitol planet by infected characters in the market area, and then later at a shuttle docking area (non-Green Zone). I avoided infection at all three of these encounters by moving fast enough to escape, but was also forced away from completing the tasks at hand.

 

Others spoke of playing PvE, and having the infection raise the PvP flag, and then become overwhelmed by nearby PvP assailants . This location seemed to be described as Tatooune, or another cross-faction area, but I avoided these places for the past week; uncertain of the mechanical aspects myself. There have been a few posts on this over the last week.

[Angel_of_Cain]

You consider the infection to other players griefing. Do i, no (let me finish before you get angry:)). the reason i do not consider it griefing is because if you are infected, you leave the area, 20 minutes or so later you explode (with no repair costs) and go about your buisness. but key issue, which a lot of people fail to understand is this: Griefing=harassment. who determines if harassment has happened? not BW, not the community; the person being griefed/harassed determines wheather he or she has been harassed. now, thier are some definite lines to it:

 

*higher level player* killed me while i was questing on a PvP server: Not harassment, the disclaimer while logging in to a PvP server is clear on the risks

 

*higher level player* camping at a quest area killing lower levels coming ther: Possibly harassment (definitely cowardly:)); it depends on the person

 

*higher level Player* keeps following me and killing me every chance they get: Definitely harassment: the higher lvl player as singled out one particular player and will not leave them alone. IRL that is called stalking.

 

During the event, on my server, all of the infection players were pretty much confined (by thier own choice) to the PvP section of the Fleet. sometimes an accident would happen at the GTN, Guildbank, or cargo hold areas, but for the most part, we stuck to the PvP area, that way, people who did not want to partcipate, knew what areas to aviod. kudos to the pubs on Sword of Ajunta Pall for that:D

 

as for BW defining greifing/harassment more clearly, they could and they're plenty of resources out there for them to use. but as always, in every MMO, you get people who get off on harassing other people due to thier own insecurities. unfortunatly, unlike IRL, the punishments are far less severe

[Elhanan]

I didnt notice any griefing going on, and I play on a PVP server.

 

Ironically, it seemed to be seen more by -----> PvE servers and players, I believe.

[Holden_Dissent]

All Bioware had to do is have some Elite Containment Soldiers patrol the Space Station and take out anyone who is infected.... This would of kept the Space Station free of the disease and discourage players from camping on the station and provide a safe zone....

 

Their other mistake was they should of made the serum free instead of charging 2k credits.....

 

Pretty simple solution but as usually over looked by Bioware....

 

That would've helped out the plagued actually. Dying was an easy way to get dna.

[Elwacko]

That's why I wish we could kill same faction, like Shadowbane allowed us to do.

Bad actions had consquences, but carebear games like this one, WoW, Rift... all of them... have no consquences and griefers feed off their need to inflict MMO herpes.

 

without full-on player killing, MMOs like this one are just fluffy puff games for carebears.

[Elhanan]

And so much for the request for constructive feedback....

[amantheil]

Ironically, it seemed to be seen more by -----> PvE servers and players, I believe.

 

Correct. The big complaint a lot of people has that if someone from the opposite faction who is flagged for PvP exploded on someone who was of the opposite faction, that other person became flagged for PvP. So people would explode on a person, flag them for PVP, and their buddies would gank them.

 

There were a few threads on the subject, and invariably one or two trolls would pop up who somehow thought flagging someone against their will on a PvE server was acceptable.

[Phyreblade]

I had fun, even on my lowly alts, to boot. I would get infected, become feverish, run over to one of the nearby railings, jump over, die, "earn" my 5 dna samples, and move the heck on through whatever it was I was doing.

 

Those mere moments of my gameplay were barely a hiccup, and those dna samples sold pretty well, too. Lowest price for one sample that I saw during the event was 1k. That's 5k for a single death. Even if I used part of that to buy a nearby serum, which I didn't bother with except on my Main, who had to run through several guild-run operations, I was still left with at least a 3k profit every time I died.

 

It's a game. Have fun with it!

[Liokae]

That's why I wish we could kill same faction, like Shadowbane allowed us to do.

Bad actions had consquences, but carebear games like this one, WoW, Rift... all of them... have no consquences and griefers feed off their need to inflict MMO herpes.

 

without full-on player killing, MMOs like this one are just fluffy puff games for carebears.

 

I was wondering how long it'd take the Elitist Attack Squadron to show up.

[davidpop]

1. Level 10s freshly arriving at the fleet had their game play impacted by this. Many can't afford the 2k for a serum, as they have just bought gear or an inventory slot. The serum should have been much, much cheaper.

 

We did?

 

I hardly even noticed the event on my new jedi....

 

I had fun, even on my lowly alts, to boot. I would get infected, become feverish, run over to one of the nearby railings, jump over, die, "earn" my 5 dna samples, and move the heck on through whatever it was I was doing.

 

 

Indeed, i really dont get why people get so worked up, its not like there is a death penalty you just respawn right where you died.

Edited April 24, 2012 by davidpop

[SyphonLord]

What griefing? All you had to do was take a rakghoul serum and you'd be immune to the plague.

 

I was running my dailies on Tat, I clicked the totem pole to summon the keeper and an empire player that was flagged was lurking around me and the second i activated the totem i found myself flagged and was killed. He was fully geared and i am a fresh 50 alt. I was very annoyed as i am on a "PVE" server and expect to be able to quest in peace but the player used an exploit to flag me and kill me. I think its just not good enough and the "flagged for PVP" option should be for ME to decide if i want to use it, not another player to flag me. Whoever defends this abuse of exploits is either guilty of it or does not respect that some players do not want to get pwned trying to enjoy their questing in peace. If this sort of behavior is allowed to continue it will be more lost subs for bioware. I can accept that if i venture to close to an enemy base i will be flagged but there are exploits and they need to be fixed.