Defense!...wait..wut?

[Azrienov]

Defensive stats in PvP: Totally useless. I have to say it. I made the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE mistake of going BM supercommando on my vanguard. It has made no difference. 15% dodge, 25% shield, 28% absorb. 50% damage reduction (Including Armor). I get run over by pretty much everyone. Not quite as fast as my Pyro Merc, but pretty close. There isn't much HP difference, there is no use for the shield against a MAJORITY of the attacks that come your way, and stacking defense is a bad idea. It soft caps fast. This leads me to the following conclusion:

 

If you're playing a VG or PT and want to tank in PvP for the love of ALL the gods go Combat-Tech Iron-Fist with a shield. Bioware has failed us in providing meaningful applications for the defensive stats. If by some miracle the dev in charge decides his head is indeed planted in the void of Uranus, and decides to relook at all the numerous and poorly planned changes to PvP interactions in regards to defensive stats, we may yet one day see hope for Supercommando gear.

 

Today is not that day.

[rolotomasi]

change your mods if you dun like it? you just need set bonus.

 

i need shield rating to refresh my stockstrike.

[Azrienov]

My point is the overall efficiency of using defensive stats at all. I think you missed that. Unless it's niche, like refreshing stock strike, they're pretty pointless. Which is why I'm sure the rest of your stats are highly offensive, yes?

[johnyangelo]

I've been playing such a tank since December and even we know for a long time that shield is not precisely helpful, I tend to be last on battlefield outliving my teammates.

[Azrienov]

I've been playing such a tank since December and even we know for a long time that shield is not precisely helpful, I tend to be last on battlefield outliving my teammates.

 

What are your stats for PvP? Saying that doesn't exactly mean much to me =/

[Vid-szhite]

Defensive stats in PvP: Totally useless. I have to say it. I made the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE mistake of going BM supercommando on my vanguard. It has made no difference. 15% dodge, 25% shield, 28% absorb. 50% damage reduction (Including Armor). I get run over by pretty much everyone. Not quite as fast as my Pyro Merc, but pretty close. There isn't much HP difference, there is no use for the shield against a MAJORITY of the attacks that come your way, and stacking defense is a bad idea. It soft caps fast. This leads me to the following conclusion:

 

If you're playing a VG or PT and want to tank in PvP for the love of ALL the gods go Combat-Tech Iron-Fist with a shield. Bioware has failed us in providing meaningful applications for the defensive stats. If by some miracle the dev in charge decides his head is indeed planted in the void of Uranus, and decides to relook at all the numerous and poorly planned changes to PvP interactions in regards to defensive stats, we may yet one day see hope for Supercommando gear.

 

Today is not that day.

 

Dropping your defense and shield would also be a huge mistake. Against Operatives and Sorcs, perhaps this is true, but the big bully on the block right now is Marauders, who rely on weapons to do their DPS. Leave yourselves open to them at your own peril. Every class other than Sorc has to rely on weapons in some form or another.

 

Get more Expertise. You need at least 900-1000 to be competitive anymore. Do that and you'll be pretty much immune to Warriors, Snipers, and Assassins.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Exilim]

Defense stats are great. I love them on my guardian. My defense relic is like a mini deflection cooldown. It's made the difference more times than I even realize I am sure

[quariona]

Defensive stats in PvP: Totally useless. I have to say it. I made the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE mistake of going BM supercommando on my vanguard. It has made no difference. 15% dodge, 25% shield, 28% absorb. 50% damage reduction (Including Armor). I get run over by pretty much everyone. Not quite as fast as my Pyro Merc, but pretty close. There isn't much HP difference, there is no use for the shield against a MAJORITY of the attacks that come your way, and stacking defense is a bad idea. It soft caps fast. This leads me to the following conclusion:

 

If you're playing a VG or PT and want to tank in PvP for the love of ALL the gods go Combat-Tech Iron-Fist with a shield. Bioware has failed us in providing meaningful applications for the defensive stats. If by some miracle the dev in charge decides his head is indeed planted in the void of Uranus, and decides to relook at all the numerous and poorly planned changes to PvP interactions in regards to defensive stats, we may yet one day see hope for Supercommando gear.

 

Today is not that day.

 

i do not agree with this post, my tankassassin in mostly BM survivor gear has about 27% dodge/deflect, 42% basic dmg reduction and 40% shield with dark ward witch absorbs about 40% dmg, and im usually the last one to die in any pvp game where i have a healer on my side and we can protect a turret/ door from about 4-5 people without dying, so defensive stats are for me very usefull as defender.

Edited April 24, 2012 by quariona

[kweassa]

i do not agree with this post, my tankassassin has about 27% dodge/deflect, 43% basic dmg reduction and 40% shield with dark ward witch absorbs about 45 % dmg, and im usually the last one to die, in any pvp game where i have a healer on my side we can protect a turret/ door from about 4-5 people without dying, so defensive stats are for me very usefull as defender.

 

That's because you tanksassins and mirror-class shatanks have multiple methods of constant self healing (no matter how small), on top of constantly applied/reapplied shield boosts, an emergency escape power, boosted armor rating (although admittedly limited), direct mitigation methods, and many options for damage increase which bypasses enemy armour.

 

With full investment to defensive specs, my Guardian can reach 30% defense(dodge/deflect/parry) chance with around 35% shield chance, around 7% boost to defense chance with Riposte, another 7% when relics are active.

 

The problem is, when TTK was quite a bit longer pre-1.2, it meant more 'basic' attacks were used for any class that was attacking my Guardian. (Just think about the massive portion 'basic' damage recorded in WoW raid damage meters - the longer the fight, the more usage from the 'white' attacks) , which that 30% basic chance + secondary (and much weaker) mitigation chance of 35% shield caught a lot more often.

 

Nowadays, with quite increased damage from all sources, a single attack rotation starting off with Force Leap/Charge from a Sentinel/Marauder can snuff out around 1/3rd of HP at least within mere seconds, sometimes even upto 1/2 HP within the first cycle of attacks. Unless you are quick enough to activate Saber Ward the moment a Force Leap/Charge lands (or, if you've alread used defensive CDs), then essentially a Defense/Immortal Guardian/Jugg stands zero chance at all against any DPS.. or even against full defense spec Tanksassins/Shatanks.

 

With no self-healing at all, the moment Sabre Ward is gone/ends, the Jugg/Guardian turns into a walking, human-sized sandbag that can't even hit back for squat. Tanksassins and Shatanks should know how valuable and powerful that constant little bits of 3% healing and boosted shield chance is.

 

 

Essentially, the Jugg/Guardian spec going full-defensive can be compared to "evasion/parry tanks" in other games, the ones that mainly rely on chance to evade enemy attacks for survivability. Empirically, the defense/evasion chance for those parallel tank types in other games usually reach around 40~50% at basis.

 

Unfortunately, our Guardian/Juggs are much lower in performance, don't have any supporting mitigation powers at all (do you know what we'd give for a power like Kinetic/Dark Ward...? Or a passive trait like Harnessed Shadows/Darkness...??), and rely only on our 2minute Sabre Ward and Warding Call... have no heals, Enure fills HP up but then takes it away (I mean seriously, there are many simular powers to Enure, and yet.. all of them takes away only the extra HP limit boost... once HP is healed, it stays there, effectively working like a makeshift self heal... but noooo.. in SWTOR, Enure just takes away any existing portion of HP as well.. )...

 

Pre-1.2, I still could compensate to all of those shortcomings with personal experience and skill. Hence, when there were posts like this, I would be the one making objections and pointing out that it was still worth making fully committed defense Guardians.

 

Nowadays... no hope at all. The only plus side is you can at least increase your attack potential a lot higher than it used to be, without losing any real defensive potential(which isn't by much anyway), by investing into Focus tree, since Felling Blow and Singularity is now accessible with Hilt Strike and Stasis Mastery.

Edited April 24, 2012 by kweassa

[Hett]

I have an immortal specced guardian in war leader armor and I survive much longer than others when in a crowd of enemies, when with a focused healer I'm really immortal, while alone I die pretty quick under enemy dps' focus, as it should be.

[Dmasterr]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=429786

[kweassa]

I have an immortal specced guardian in war leader armor and I survive much longer than others when in a crowd of enemies, when with a focused healer I'm really immortal, while alone I die pretty quick under enemy dps' focus, as it should be.

 

Anything survives quite long time with proper defensive action and heal support. The question is, assuming both sides are without any support, can a really defensive specced tank survive long enough against DPS to make it seem like a close fight?

 

Pre-1.2, my answer was Yes.

 

Post-1.2, my answer is 'Need to reconsider.'

 

 

The questions surrounding the tank classes of Juggernaut/Guardians is certainly not about making them on par with tanks from other games, which more or less stand comfortably in the midst of major enemy fire for quite a long time even without support and can do 2vs1 or 3vs1 fights, (although not necessarily win against all of the enemies)... and it's definately not about making Guardians and Juggernauts perform like Protection Paladins in WoW (...like, how they are almost impervious to assaults from rogues and ROFLSTOMP a pair of them easily) - which most easily makes the short article linked in the above post pretty much irrelevant. Some people may want to totally alter the mode of fighting us Guardians/Juggs do and make it more akin to Warriors or Paladins in WoW... but I certainly am not.

 

I still think all of the traits and skills I've listed in the previous post is important and Guardians/Juggs should adhere to it, and no matter how a Guard/Jugg may be changed to a better way we need to make sure they stick to the current method of fighting that differes from a conventional tank in other games - it makes this game's tanks unique, and that's what I like about this game.

 

But still, even if we do that, is our level of performance really comparable to how Asses and Shads might handle the situation?

 

It's more about how they compare with a well-built Tanksassins/Shatanks... and while people have consciously tried to avoid this question pre-1.2, with most pure defense tank enthusiasts trying to find justification in the 'different roles' a Jugg/Guard has as compared to Asses/Shads... I don't think we can avoid the question any longer post-1.2.

 

What is there a Jugg/Guard can do that Asses/Shads cannot do better?

 

So far, the only thing I have is "we have Guardian Leap" and "we can deal two true stuns"

Edited April 24, 2012 by kweassa

[kanun]

Come to Tera Online, awesome game. Leave star wars realy...

[johnyangelo]

What are your stats for PvP? Saying that doesn't exactly mean much to me =/

 

23 000 HP

41% dmg reduction

28% defence chance

43% shield chance

37% shield absorbtion

 

1167 expertise

[Gren-Aluren]

Anything survives quite long time with proper defensive action and heal support. The question is, assuming both sides are without any support, can a really defensive specced tank survive long enough against DPS to make it seem like a close fight?

 

Pre-1.2, my answer was Yes.

 

Post-1.2, my answer is 'Need to reconsider.'

 

 

The questions surrounding the tank classes of Juggernaut/Guardians is certainly not about making them on par with tanks from other games, which more or less stand comfortably in the midst of major enemy fire for quite a long time even without support and can do 2vs1 or 3vs1 fights, (although not necessarily win against all of the enemies)... and it's definately not about making Guardians and Juggernauts perform like Protection Paladins in WoW (...like, how they are almost impervious to assaults from rogues and ROFLSTOMP a pair of them easily) - which most easily makes the short article linked in the above post pretty much irrelevant. Some people may want to totally alter the mode of fighting us Guardians/Juggs do and make it more akin to Warriors or Paladins in WoW... but I certainly am not.

 

I still think all of the traits and skills I've listed in the previous post is important and Guardians/Juggs should adhere to it, and no matter how a Guard/Jugg may be changed to a better way we need to make sure they stick to the current method of fighting that differes from a conventional tank in other games - it makes this game's tanks unique, and that's what I like about this game.

 

But still, even if we do that, is our level of performance really comparable to how Asses and Shads might handle the situation?

 

It's more about how they compare with a well-built Tanksassins/Shatanks... and while people have consciously tried to avoid this question pre-1.2, with most pure defense tank enthusiasts trying to find justification in the 'different roles' a Jugg/Guard has as compared to Asses/Shads... I don't think we can avoid the question any longer post-1.2.

 

What is there a Jugg/Guard can do that Asses/Shads cannot do better?

 

So far, the only thing I have is "we have Guardian Leap" and "we can deal two true stuns"

 

 

I still beat DPS 1v1 with my Tank Guardian. But I'm not full defense tree I still use a similar spec to the ol' 14/27 spec which had stupidly more threat generation, survivability and DPS then the defense tree. You are totally right about Shadows doing everything a Guardian can do but better. They have substantially more DPS, Threat Generation, Survivability and Utility. They are definitely the tank you want to have guarding you in PvP.

 

I think they want us to be more like Ret Paladins which would explain why they made it easier to stance dance. Which I think is ridiculous because even then a Shadow can do that better.

[kweassa]

I think they want us to be more like Ret Paladins which would explain why they made it easier to stance dance. Which I think is ridiculous because even then a Shadow can do that better.

 

You know, that is an interesting approach.

 

Until now, we all assumed the true role of the Jugg/Guardian was with the tank, and DPS trees were just an option.

 

Come to think of it, you may be right. Maybe we should stop considering a Jugg/Guardian as a tanking class, but rather a DPS class at heart, with some defense given as an option to be utilized to become a DPS-Tank hybrid, rather than just a DPS. So, under this pretense, we could always choose to understand the shortcomings of the defense/immortal tree as a "Hybrid limitation".

 

But then, being a Star Wars fan at heart, it would pain me to see the famed Soresu form, made so famous through Master Kenobi and his mastery of the form as the "ultimate defensive style", being considered nothing but a makeshift, hybridized form of defense option....

[ComeAndSee]

They buffed defensive stats in the latest patch FYI.

 

They now trigger much more often and you can now absorb criticals.

 

//

 

I'm @ 920 expertise (yeah, yeah I'm missing 3 enhancements that don't have expertise from old BM crap)

19k hp

48% damage reduction

40% shield chance

36% shield absorb

10% defense chance

 

74% surge crit chance

28% crit chance

Edited April 24, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Gren-Aluren]

Lol. Well I have no other explanation why Hybridizing into Vigilance tree grants more survivability then the defense tree currently offers. I was hoping they would have put Unremitting and the endurance bonus passive into defense but they didn't.

 

They buffed defensive stats in the latest patch FYI.

 

They now trigger much more often and you can now absorb criticals.

 

In which patch? 1.2? or 1.2.1? I didn't see this...

Edited April 24, 2012 by Gren-Aluren

[ComeAndSee]

Lol. Well I have no other explanation why Hybridizing into Vigilance tree grants more survivability then the defense tree currently offers. I was hoping they would have put Unremitting and the endurance bonus passive into defense but they didn't.

 

 

 

In which patch? 1.2? or 1.2.1? I didn't see this...

 

1.2. It wasn't in the notes. They changed it so Marauders / Juggernauts attack category can now be shielded. Basically you can shield everything short of Ravage because its a channeled ability.

[Dmasterr]

They buffed defensive stats in the latest patch FYI.

 

They now trigger much more often and you can now absorb criticals.

 

You should learn how game mechanics work, before giving other people advice.

 

 

1.2. It wasn't in the notes. They changed it so Marauders / Juggernauts attack category can now be shielded. Basically you can shield everything short of Ravage because its a channeled ability.

 

/facepalm

Edited April 24, 2012 by Dmasterr

[ComeAndSee]

You should learn how game mechanics work, before giving other people advice.

 

/facepalm

 

Telling from the nature of your whining threads I don't think I can change your mind. I already experimented with this.

 

I was beating on my Tanksin friend and my non-absorbed Ion Pulse crit for 1200 and when it absorbed I was critting for 800. This is also a special that previously did not get absorbed.

 

Survivability wise my shield procs ***much*** more often that it did in the previous patch. Sentinels trigger my shield like a light show now and they get a big surprise when I double crit Stockstrike them twice in a row.

Edited April 24, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Gren-Aluren]

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target’s shield chance off the table. It shouldn’t be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target’s shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.

-- Georg Zoeller

[Dmasterr]

Telling from the nature of your whining threads I don't think I can change your mind. I already experimented with this.

 

I was beating on my Tanksin friend and my non-absorbed Ion Pulse crit for 1200 and when it absorbed I was critting for 800. This is also a special that previously did not get absorbed.

 

Survivability wise my shield procs ***much*** more often that it did in the previous patch. Sentinels trigger my shield like a light show now and they get a big surprise when I double crit Stockstrike them twice in a row.

 

I strongly advise to read how game mechanics work, if you are unable to figure it on your own, before making more comments.

[Delease]

Defensive stats across the board werent put in line with the damage increase brought on by expertise..so it seems. My like 400 expertise powertech last longer then my full BM sniper does

[ComeAndSee]

-- Georg Zoeller

 

Well they obviously changed their mind then. I just did a quick search and that comment was in January BEFORE the patch.

 

How about going in game and testing it yourself like I did. You will be surprised.

Edited April 24, 2012 by ComeAndSee