Why Expertise Stat in PVP?

[xxdragonragexx]

Sense of entitlement/exclusivity is exactly what PVP gear promotes. It is entirely artificial way to create a segregation between people who have it and those who dont. Great job not understanding the whole issue.

 

Expertise is UNNEEDED.

 

It is you who do not understand why segregation is important.

 

Separating PvE and PvP is a win/win scenario for Bioware and why Expertise or Pvp stat is needed.

 

- If there is no expertise or pvp stat, players can grind gear from pvp and pve. This will definitely decrease the time to gear up which is fine for game companies since they can decrease commendations, valor and increase the grind. But the main problem is that Bioware spent 2-3 months (time), lots of money, & resources in creating a dungeon. If players can get pvp gear then they will get max gear through pvp and skip all of the dungeons except for the hardest one. This is going to happen because pve gear progression or dungeons have a lock out timer to prevent players from getting pve gear too quickly (time sink). But this lockout timer can get bypassed by getting gear through pvp. It maybe great for players but Bioware is definitely going to lose money cause they cannot create dungeons every month. Players will /quit or cancel their account every time they get max gear then wait for a major content patch before subscribing again.

 

- For pvp games like Warhammer, Daoc, and etc, this is fine because they don't have a big PvE or raiding playerbase. Daoc and Warhammer don't even come up with new dungeons every year. Only in expansions. But for SWTOR, and World Of Warcraft, they need to create dungeons and PvE content every 3 months or lose their pve or raiding playerbase.

 

- PvP players don't really care if there is a pvp stat or not. If the best gear can be attained through pvp, then they don't care if raiders have the same gear as them. It will be about skill. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen in a PvE game like swtor. If there is no pvp stat, raiders will obviously will be given the Best Gear so that they will have an incentive to raid or dungeon crawl.

[JeramieCrowe]

It is you who do not understand why segregation is important.

 

Yet the majority of PvPers voted for "PvPvE" last week. Which did you vote?

[Xinika]

The fact that you're asking to have Expertise removed from the game just goes to show you don't understand PvP. The point of Expertise is so that PvE doesn't dominate PvP. Furthermore, so that PvP doesn't become a trivial side past time for PvErs.

 

Expertise makes it so PvE gear is useless in PvP. This is so that someone who runs Operations all day and gets full Rakata gear can't then go Que for PvP and roll everyone there. If dedicated PvErs can roll over everyone in PvP, then why would there be dedicated PvPers? Why would all those dedicated PvPers want to play if someone who just runs PvE all day can come along and roflstomp them? It makes PvP become just a side past time for PvErs to mess around with and completely eliminates any chance of being a dedicated PvPer.

 

Yes, you could argue to just give the same gear from Operations as rewards for PvP. However, then Operations would decrease drastically. That being because most people play for the gear and "oh look at all my epicxzzzz!!!" rather than the actually content. So, if you could get the Rakata gear from just failing through PvP, why bother wasting time putting together a Operation group and trying to get Hard Modes done?

 

The gap in Expertise between Recruit, Battle Master, and War Hero is no different than the gap between PvE gear. If you've played more and spent more time, you deserve more. It's just progression, the whole reason any of us play a game. You play to progress, to become better and achieve more to obtain better rewards. Someone who just started out in PvE doesn't get to go straight into a Operation and match a full Rakata geared player on the dps charts. No, they have to run some Hard Mode Flash Points and run some Normal Operations so that they can get their Rakata gear. Just like a new PvPer has to get rolled for a while till they get to the same point as others in PvP and match them on gear. Simple Progression.

 

Expertise is needed simply to allow people who only want to PvP get to only PvP and not be punished for it. Just like how some Specs are better for PvP than PvE or vice versa. We need stuff made for PvP only and stuff made for PvE only so that neither side loses out on being important. Otherwise, one will just become side content for the other.

 

+1 To this post.

[Karkais]

Quote: Originally Posted by customkb View Post

The fact that you're asking to have Expertise removed from the game just goes to show you don't understand PvP. The point of Expertise is so that PvE doesn't dominate PvP. Furthermore, so that PvP doesn't become a trivial side past time for PvErs.

 

So youre happy that you completely remove PVE from PVP instead? I fail to see how supporting one group and completely ignoring the other is any different.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Karkais

[Akomo]

Meh! Ive never played warzones till this game.Im an open world pvper back from SWG days.Keep the expertise or remove it i dont care.Im still going to whip someone's butt anywhere since i can play my class.

 

I also play on a pvp server.Not our primary choice , but we learned to deal with it. Know what i see ?A bunch of imps who consistantly whine in open world pvp when we kill them.

 

How does that saying go? Oh yes nuff talk and more rock.

 

Have a great day!

[NRN_Hawk]

lol @ the Exp for PVP

it's a bit like the resilience lol blizzard made in WoW

I still run warzones half PVE geared and it works better than having over 1k Exp for me. xD

I'm tank tho, but I'm no friend of seperated gear anyway, it's just not needed. You should be able to do pve and pvp with one gear, seperating it ruined WoW and it can ruin SWTOR.

 

And if you want real PVP go play Jedi Academy, there's the balance, not in MMOs.

 

[Aussiedroid]

And if you want real PVP go play Jedi Academy, there's the balance, not in MMOs.

 

Ahh yes, JA was awesome fun in PVP (and did take some skill) ... man I haven't played that for a while now.

 

No reason why this couldn't be done in an MMO though assuming they get the gearing balance right by removing Expertise.

[Arestos]

I'm really struggling to understand the viewpoint of swtor's raiders. Having come from a hardcore raiding background from vanilla wow all the way up to cata, i just can't comprehend your viewpoint? Is it really as simple as you want your high end pve gear to be 100% viable in high end PVP too? Can't you see the problems with that. WOW went through that exact problem and has a very simular system to this (which bioware poached i guess). It's a design choice. They've made two seperate progression paths. It's extremely difficult to have the best in both BY DESIGN. There are possibly a few reasons to this but I'd hazard a guess that it comes down to the following:

 

 

 

• Strict PVEr's not having to PVP to obtain advantages in PVE.
  
• Strict PVP'rs not having to PVE to obtain advantages in PVP.
  
• Gearing up quicker, if both pvp and pve has the same stats people can effectivly gear twice as fast which in turn means content is cleared quicker which leads to the next point.
  
• Increases the amount of time a sub has to spend to get fully kited out in both. More time in turn means more money for them (another months sub - nothing to do means no reason to sub).
  

 

 

If you enjoy pvp for fun or something on the side use the blue recruit set - it is what it's there for - entry level pvp. It's not the best but even with an extremely casual playstyle you'll be in full BM in a little over a month* and once you are in full BM it comes down to skill on who would win vs a war hero set (ignoring augments which is just another time/money sink). It's not a huge investment of time and you'd have a full set well before the next pvp tier came out.

 

With the way some of you are carring on you just sound extremely (it gets thrown around alot but im gonna say it) entitled. "I got x gear from y and its no good for z i want it to be good for z even knowing i didnt earn it from doing z" that argument is just moronic. As long as bioware always keeps a purchasable pvp set that is two tiers behind the top level pvp set it should be fine.

 

 

* Casual playstle based on the following

 

5 games @ ~80 commendations a game (low estimate) ~= 500 commendations a day inc daily. Say you do that 3 times a week ~= 1500 + weekly quest ~= 1600. Full BM is ~9k

 

By comparison if you played ~10 games a day, every day, you'd have your full set in under two weeks.

[Orangerascal]

The problem is never the stat but the gear disparity from progressive mmo's.

 

Swtor has actually made getting BM gear ridiculously easy to get (seriously 8 games for 1 piece). You really can't complain about the gear disparity any more.

 

Now it just comes to pure lazyness.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Shredbull]

Expertise is neccesary or PvE'ers would be the best geared in both PvE and PvP.

 

Nuff said.

[Orangerascal]

The real problem are tanks doing as much damage as their dps counterparts with much better survivability.

[mArchangel]

I'm really struggling to understand the viewpoint of swtor's raiders. Having come from a hardcore raiding background from vanilla wow all the way up to cata, i just can't comprehend your viewpoint? Is it really as simple as you want your high end pve gear to be 100% viable in high end PVP too? Can't you see the problems with that. WOW went through that exact problem and has a very simular system to this (which bioware poached i guess). It's a design choice. They've made two seperate progression paths. It's extremely difficult to have the best in both BY DESIGN. There are possibly a few reasons to this but I'd hazard a guess that it comes down to the following:

 

 

• 
  
• Strict PVEr's not having to PVP to obtain advantages in PVE.
  
• Strict PVP'rs not having to PVE to obtain advantages in PVP.
  
• Gearing up quicker, if both pvp and pve has the same stats people can effectivly gear twice as fast which in turn means content is cleared quicker which leads to the next point.
  
• Increases the amount of time a sub has to spend to get fully kited out in both. More time in turn means more money for them (another months sub - nothing to do means no reason to sub).
  

 

If you enjoy pvp for fun or something on the side use the blue recruit set - it is what it's there for - entry level pvp. It's not the best but even with an extremely casual playstyle you'll be in full BM in a little over a month* and once you are in full BM it comes down to skill on who would win vs a war hero set (ignoring augments which is just another time/money sink). It's not a huge investment of time and you'd have a full set well before the next pvp tier came out.

 

With the way some of you are carring on you just sound extremely (it gets thrown around alot but im gonna say it) entitled. "I got x gear from y and its no good for z i want it to be good for z even knowing i didnt earn it from doing z" that argument is just moronic. As long as bioware always keeps a purchasable pvp set that is two tiers behind the top level pvp set it should be fine.

 

 

* Casual playstle based on the following

 

5 games @ ~80 commendations a game (low estimate) ~= 500 commendations a day inc daily. Say you do that 3 times a week ~= 1500 + weekly quest ~= 1600. Full BM is ~9k

 

By comparison if you played ~10 games a day, every day, you'd have your full set in under two weeks.

 

There is exactly the issue. How many players, that are strict either PvP or PvE do we actually have? Don't you think, that due to lack of population on a lot of servers people are almost forced to PvP to have some sort of progression happening? Now that would speak for having two different progression trees to an extent(noone and also not the OP disputed that btw. its the Exp.Stat that needs removal).

 

HOWEVER......it also artificially inflates the number of players dedicated to PvP. Therefore it stands to question who the designers are catering for in their infinite wisdom!? I believe that if you are a true PvPer you roll on PvP server for starters(those dont seem too well populated btw.). *shrug shoulder*

 

I am a firm believer that this 4th pillar MMO should concentrate and cater exactly for the PvE crowd mainly and design the open world PvP much better so that it can get smoothly integrated rather than having to enter these archaic WZs all the time. That is is soo oldschool and I would love to have some immersion happening there.

It is also not logical for a RPG that requires community to work to try and segregate people into two camps on a server. Sorry that almost infuriates me.

 

EXPERTISE KILLS OPEN WORLD PVP-A FACT!

 

And that is the true issue here.

[JeramieCrowe]

EXPERTISE KILLS OPEN WORLD PVP-A FACT!

 

And that is the true issue here.

 

I'm kinda wondering how that's going to work, myself. Last week's poll put up by James Ohlen asked what kind of open-world PvP the PvPers wanted. "PvPvE" won by quite a large margin. So, if it's going to be PvPvE, how does Expertise fit into this?

[Aussiedroid]

With the way some of you are carring on you just sound extremely (it gets thrown around alot but im gonna say it) entitled. "I got x gear from y and its no good for z i want it to be good for z even knowing i didnt earn it from doing z" that argument is just moronic. As long as bioware always keeps a purchasable pvp set that is two tiers behind the top level pvp set it should be fine.

 

Thats not so much the point I was making. I wouldn't expect just because I have got decent gear in PVE that I should have a leg up on a PVPer nor that I would have no progression to do in PVP simply because I have decent gear already. That seems to be the main fear of the counter argument as they dont want to be disadvantaged.

 

Both PVE and PVP need progression, and being some PVP players only do Warzones, they should have gear obtainable via PVP that is equal to that found in PVE. Being PVP gear is still viable in PVE content why cannot it be also the other way around?? This clearly favors currently and puts the priority from a game progression standpoint to play warzones and PVP first then do any other quests, flashpoints, Ops secondary. So as it is now, you dont need to do both, just do PVP and get your gear and you will be able to do pretty much everything in the game!

 

This is a MMORPG, and would argue most players still put in far more time in questing, flashpoints and Ops over Warzones as this is still the core of the game. I seriously think there are very few players who solely do one or the other even though we like to put people into these groups to justify our perspectives.

 

The idea that having two tiers of progression for PVE and PVP is certainly a time sink, but thats not the concern its that the Expertise stat causes such a difference in effectiveness that it makes the game no fun to play unless you have clocked a lot of time to get some decent gear. It is forcing us to play a certain way rather than giving us the freedom to play all aspects of the game and have fun.

 

One of the posts estimated that you need about 10 matches a day for 2 weeks to get ok gear, well for a lot of players 10 matches is several hours of play each day, several hours of frustration and little enjoyment (for me this is more like 1-2mths before I can consider enjoying a warzone again). Why? We should have this progression to get better gear but in the mean time we would be able to be competative. Recruit set helps, but still there is a very wide margin between this and War Hero specced players still resulting in a very one sided fight.

[The_Bucket]

DAoC got it right, but yet no other game has followed in those footsteps.

 

It's baffling.

[JeramieCrowe]

DAoC got it right, but yet no other game has followed in those footsteps.

 

It's baffling.

 

If you saw the thread on James Ohlen's poll, many PvPers were saying NOT to do it like DAoC. PvPers really need to agree on something, or we're never going to get satisfactory MMO PvP, due to lack of participation.

[The_Bucket]

If you saw the thread on James Ohlen's poll, many PvPers were saying NOT to do it like DAoC. PvPers really need to agree on something, or we're never going to get satisfactory MMO PvP, due to lack of participation.

 

I don't understand what was wrong with their mechanic. You get abilities based on how much you PvP and rank. Armor is crafted, and the best armor at that. No need to grind.