Why Expertise Stat in PVP?

[Razot]

All the pro expertise fail train people..lol

A pvp stat in this game has been nothing less than a total train wreck to say the least.

If there is going to be a PVP stat it should be baselined with the progression only being minor increases in stats per tier.

 

Oh well its not my problem or concern anymore, but the clock is ticking Bioware and i am not even gonna feel bad for you at all.

I am here because its Star Wars but even the IP wont save this mess, I am sure i am not alone on that.

GW2 vrs LOL Gabe my money is on GW2!

Edited April 24, 2012 by Razot

[Aussiedroid]

Seems from most of the explanations provided on the stat the main reason seems to be to give PVP'ers a chance to compete with higher level PVE players. I don't disagree (when considering the current design) as such but I think this still could be setup differently to ensure better equality and still provide progression in PVP and PVE.

 

All that is really needed is for items to be available from PVP that is simular (same item level but perhaps different stat combos) items be made available so when a soley PVP player comes across a PVE player that their stat levels are simular. This way it wont matter if you concentrated on Raiding/PVE or just played PVP, if you have put in the time to grind out gear in either both would be competitive. If you do put in the effort to get the better gear then you are rewarded, but still would mean those that don't or haven't yet still compete.

 

I saw in a response the expertise tops out around 700 ~ 11% ... I understood this reduces damage by this amount and also increase dmg output by this amount .. this would mean to me about 22% difference vs PVE geared player which is substantial when the PVP gear does simular damage anyways with the Expertise stat removed. This difference still seems larger from my experience in Ilum and Warzone matches.

 

So PVE player must get different gear with Expertise simply to play at a decent level, but in reverse PVP gear is still viable in PVE content. Prior to 1.2, I was raiding with my PVP gear on my first character with good success.

 

I am still not convinced this is the best solution having Expertise balance this out.

 

I have about 300 expertise on my gear now and did notice some difference but still seeing players hitting me for close to 4k dmg per hit, which with a stun (dont get me started on Resolve bar!) means I cannot even hit back in time before I am dead.

 

At the end of the day for me its just about having fun, as I am sure it is for most of you but I think this system discourages those who want to play casually in PVP from giving it a decent go.

 

I also agree with the comments on how this affects the skill of a player - PVP should be about skill not about stats. What I see is that regardless of how good I am with the class I play or how well I work in the team a player with better stats and poor skills can still own me. How is that fun

 

I kinda miss the days of playing multiplayer games like Duke Nukem or the other earlier FPS where there was no powerups or char progression. You all started on even level and it was down to your skills as a player if you came up on top. This is accutely evident when you play games like Call of Duty now where players with all the best weapons, powerups and unlocks simply demolish all other lower players. I see the simularity in SWTOR now too.

[Aussiedroid]

This is in the works, aside from the bag space thing. Was supposed to be in 1.2, but not enough time. You barely need bag space in this game, so suck it up and buy more bag space upgrades if you want to PvP.

 

Great to hear this is something in the works.

 

My issue isnt so much the bag space, its the hassle of changing it item by item to setup before the match. Then changing back again etc. Not a biggie but again wouldnt be necessary if we get rid of Expertise.

 

This is a minor issue IMO but still something that needs addressing.

 

Thanks for your thoughts tho..

[mArchangel]

It is not good for the gameplay. The purpose of expertise gear is to give PVPers some goal to grind for. Nevermind the balance..

 

Then again, if expertise gear didnt exist, all those hardcore pvpers would have to do PVE to get their top gear, and the moaning would be deafening..

 

To that I have to say: Go play a FPS shooter. Or roll on a PvP server. The thing is this: This game has a lot to offer in regards to replay value with different classes and characters, thus it's main aspect is PvE. PvP is a side aspect, especially on PvE servers, regardless how people see this. It's the reason there ARE PvP servers or have I missed something? The fact, that PvPers have such an impact on the enjoyability of a ROLEPLAYGAME is beyond me.

If you want to duel people go play Jedi Academy or as stated roll on a PvP server.

And to repeat it again: The sole reason why PvPers like Expertise is to gain an unfair advantage over others to disguise their lack of skill and still be able to prance around on how uber they are.

 

On another note: The fact that Expertise drops off at a certain point is factual according to stat windows, however it does not feel like it at all. If you keep stacking Exp you will still gain and gain. Something is happening behind the scenes. Give us a realtime INGAME combat log and we will all see it. They are hiding stuff as nothing is working 'as intended' I fear. *grumble in disdain*

[mArchangel]

Seems from most of the explanations provided on the stat the main reason seems to be to give PVP'ers a chance to compete with higher level PVE players. I don't disagree (when considering the current design) as such but I think this still could be setup differently to ensure better equality and still provide progression in PVP and PVE.

 

All that is really needed is for items to be available from PVP that is simular (same item level but perhaps different stat combos) items be made available so when a soley PVP player comes across a PVE player that their stat levels are simular. This way it wont matter if you concentrated on Raiding/PVE or just played PVP, if you have put in the time to grind out gear in either both would be competitive. If you do put in the effort to get the better gear then you are rewarded, but still would mean those that don't or haven't yet still compete.

 

I saw in a response the expertise tops out around 700 ~ 11% ... I understood this reduces damage by this amount and also increase dmg output by this amount .. this would mean to me about 22% difference vs PVE geared player which is substantial when the PVP gear does simular damage anyways with the Expertise stat removed. This difference still seems larger from my experience in Ilum and Warzone matches.

 

So PVE player must get different gear with Expertise simply to play at a decent level, but in reverse PVP gear is still viable in PVE content. Prior to 1.2, I was raiding with my PVP gear on my first character with good success.

 

I am still not convinced this is the best solution having Expertise balance this out.

 

I have about 300 expertise on my gear now and did notice some difference but still seeing players hitting me for close to 4k dmg per hit, which with a stun (dont get me started on Resolve bar!) means I cannot even hit back in time before I am dead.

 

At the end of the day for me its just about having fun, as I am sure it is for most of you but I think this system discourages those who want to play casually in PVP from giving it a decent go.

 

I also agree with the comments on how this affects the skill of a player - PVP should be about skill not about stats. What I see is that regardless of how good I am with the class I play or how well I work in the team a player with better stats and poor skills can still own me. How is that fun

 

I kinda miss the days of playing multiplayer games like Duke Nukem or the other earlier FPS where there was no powerups or char progression. You all started on even level and it was down to your skills as a player if you came up on top. This is accutely evident when you play games like Call of Duty now where players with all the best weapons, powerups and unlocks simply demolish all other lower players. I see the simularity in SWTOR now too.

 

100% with you mate. Spot on!

[mArchangel]

Great to hear this is something in the works.

 

My issue isnt so much the bag space, its the hassle of changing it item by item to setup before the match. Then changing back again etc. Not a biggie but again wouldnt be necessary if we get rid of Expertise.

 

This is a minor issue IMO but still something that needs addressing.

 

Thanks for your thoughts tho..

 

/classy response to a flamer

[mArchangel]

This is def the best reasoning. Before you could even get Champion and skip a lot of PVE content. Straight to HMs if you weren't stupid.

 

Simple fix: NO GEAR FROM PvP!

 

Give them titles and whatnot......detach gear=rebalance THE ENTIRE GAME=YAY! WINNER!

[TurokDarkstar]

A new 50 SHOULD be significantly weaker then a geared 50. Once you hit max level, progression is done through gear. If their wasn't a significant gap between new 50 and pro 50, you wouldn't have a game.

 

I respect those dominating matches with 20,000+ HP.

 

So many things are wrong with this.

[PaddyOCanager]

I also agree with the comments on how this affects the skill of a player - PVP should be about skill not about stats. What I see is that regardless of how good I am with the class I play or how well I work in the team a player with better stats and poor skills can still own me. How is that fun

 

I kinda miss the days of playing multiplayer games like Duke Nukem or the other earlier FPS where there was no powerups or char progression. You all started on even level and it was down to your skills as a player if you came up on top. This is accutely evident when you play games like Call of Duty now where players with all the best weapons, powerups and unlocks simply demolish all other lower players. I see the simularity in SWTOR now too.

 

Dude seriously? It has taken me less than a week of playing in my spare time to get a full set of BM gear. This is a MMO, why are you even mentioning Call of Duty and Duke Nukem? Stop crying because people are investing in PVP and being rewarded for it. Once you start getting your PVP set, you'll start destroying those same people who were "owning" you. Then come back here and tell me how satisfied you feel. Otherwise, go back to raiding and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Aussiedroid]

Dude seriously? It has taken me less than a week of playing in my spare time to get a full set of BM gear. This is a MMO, why are you even mentioning Call of Duty and Duke Nukem? Stop crying because people are investing in PVP and being rewarded for it. Once you start getting your PVP set, you'll start destroying those same people who were "owning" you. Then come back here and tell me how satisfied you feel. Otherwise, go back to raiding and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

Another top contributer .. Its funny how having an opinion different to others is considered 'having a cry'. Seems to be contagious with people online these days. You are missing my points that I have raised though ... 'sigh'.

 

I have said before I dont want to simply get my gear and find I start destroying everyone else. Thats not the point, the point is that PVP should be more even. Either you are the one being owned or you are the one owning the others, thats no fun to me. It needs to be more about your skills as a player than the 'special' items you get. The balance here is all wrong and it is hurting PVP IMO.

 

Since when is firing a couple of shots off at someone and killing them absolutely a good challenge.. how is this requiring any skill or tactics. I see this coming back to the Expertise stat once again causing the biggest divide here.

 

Again, I will state its not a matter of getting the set, or how long it takes to get it, my post is about the need of Expertise in the PVP system and that I dont think it is required. I dont mind doing some grinding but seems you are reading my response as someone who has lost some matches and wants to whinge about it. Completely not the case - I am happy to loose if there is some competition involved!

 

I mention FPS to provide some clarity to my point of view .. nothing more. Again, seems you missed my point.

 

BTW Paddy - I play all aspects of the game fairly evenly so wouldnt consider myself a Raider, PVPer or any of the stereotypes you may wish to pigeon hole me into.

[mArchangel]

Dude seriously? It has taken me less than a week of playing in my spare time to get a full set of BM gear. This is a MMO, why are you even mentioning Call of Duty and Duke Nukem? Stop crying because people are investing in PVP and being rewarded for it. Once you start getting your PVP set, you'll start destroying those same people who were "owning" you. Then come back here and tell me how satisfied you feel. Otherwise, go back to raiding and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

***removed*** as AussieDriod already told you all that matters. >.>

Edited April 24, 2012 by mArchangel

[Rujs]

There's nothing wrong with copy/pasting the system from wow.

 

In classic wow I was kitted in pretty end game gear, and was one shotting cloth in PvP, (Chromaggus X-bow before the speed standarisation).

 

In early TBC you could bypass multiple tiers of PvE gear with the first PvP sets.

 

I think the PvP sets in SwToR is in a good place atm, the BM grind is easy and the difference between BM and WH isn't groundbreaking. A skilled BM will beat a mediocre WH geared player any day.

[mArchangel]

There's nothing wrong with copy/pasting the system from wow.

 

In classic wow I was kitted in pretty end game gear, and was one shotting cloth in PvP, (Chromaggus X-bow before the speed standarisation).

 

In early TBC you could bypass multiple tiers of PvE gear with the first PvP sets.

 

I think the PvP sets in SwToR is in a good place atm, the BM grind is easy and the difference between BM and WH isn't groundbreaking. A skilled BM will beat a mediocre WH geared player any day.

 

EVERYTHING is wrong with that mate. Every little bit.

 

As for the BM 2 WH comparison: OF COURSE DUDE! It's like what difference? 1%. THis is not the OPs point. You completely missed it.

Edited April 24, 2012 by mArchangel

[JeramieCrowe]

There's nothing wrong with copy/pasting the system from wow.

 

In classic wow I was kitted in pretty end game gear, and was one shotting cloth in PvP, (Chromaggus X-bow before the speed standarisation).

 

In early TBC you could bypass multiple tiers of PvE gear with the first PvP sets.

 

I think the PvP sets in SwToR is in a good place atm, the BM grind is easy and the difference between BM and WH isn't groundbreaking. A skilled BM will beat a mediocre WH geared player any day.

 

For as many PvPers saying that the WoW PvP system is completely broken, I wouldn't count on that being any kind of fix whatsoever.

Edited April 24, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Sybaris]

'Cause I don't want to raid. I want to PvP. That's why I PvP. Because I like PvP. PvP is fun. Raiding is fun too, but not so much for me. Maybe you like raiding. But I like PvPing. I don't want to raid in order to PvP because you like to raid in order to PvP. I like to only PvP, and not raid. Maybe you can just PvP, and buy PvP gear, so that I don't have to raid. I guess I'm selfish for wanting you to PvP in order to PvP, so that I don't have to raid, but I can't help it. Please don't make me raid. I don't want to. Please. I want to PvP. I like to PvP. I can teach you how if you'd like, then you can get PvP gear; recruit gear is easy to get. Did I mention that I like to PvP, and not raid? 'Cause I do. Thank you for understanding....... PvP.

 

 

.......

[Gjorind]

The original post is a good point, unfortunately(because I don't like gear based PvP as a starting point) I can explain why expertise happens.

 

In the 10-49 bracket, the game isn't gear based, per se. Everyone has 12k hp, give or take a few hundred, and has roughly the same damage stats and secondary stats, plus or minus a few points(the pluses and minuses are indeed gear based, you have to stay current to your level). As such, abilities have predictable levels of damage tied to them and work the same for virtually every player that uses them.

 

At 50, everyone is "on their own". If you bring 11k hp(seen it) worth of gear into a warzone, that's what you play in. and if you show up in 25k(a very real number that I have seen) hp worth of PvE gear, that's what you play in.

 

Gear inflation and the ownership of a "balance stat" is the reason behind the PvP stat. As raid content progresses, the game developers can offer more expertise, or increase the functionality of it, to maintain a PvP gearset that remains preferable to raid gear.

 

Keeping PvP gear preferable is important to PvP balance because it removes a certain amount of the "gear based" element of the game. This is essential because, frankly, the gear based portion of PvE simply isn't fun for the players on the receiving end of a beating by better gear(spare me the exceptions, as a general rule we all know this is true).

 

A high end raider and a fresh 50 are not 13k hp apart, with commensurate other stat differences. Rather, the difference between a high end PvPer and low end is the difference between the War Hero and Recruit set. This gap is much, much smaller. A fresh 50 PvE'r will always hit 50 in roughly the same place, whereas the Veteran 50 will be farther and farther away from what this is.

 

About the only other "fix" for this situation is to remove the PvP only statistic and constantly update the level 50 entry level for every PvE player in the game. By doing this, you'd also have to rebalance every level 50 piece of content. PvP, by contrast, is static content in the context of the opposition that you'll face, so if all PvPers can be corralled into wearing the offered PvP gearsets, this disparity vs. opponents is much less daunting to monitor and balance.

[Aussiedroid]

About the only other "fix" for this situation is to remove the PvP only statistic and constantly update the level 50 entry level for every PvE player in the game. By doing this, you'd also have to rebalance every level 50 piece of content. PvP, by contrast, is static content in the context of the opposition that you'll face, so if all PvPers can be corralled into wearing the offered PvP gearsets, this disparity vs. opponents is much less daunting to monitor and balance.

 

Thanks for your insight.

 

If we had a game without Expertise, and say a new tier or level of items is introduced you would also add at the same level a PVP based set that those that dont Raid. This would mean for Raiders, you would go into your harder mode and get the better items, but for PVP'ers you would accumulate points to get the higher level items by doing their Warzones. The items would be unique but simular enough to ensure no huge advantage for one type of player over another. Where several progressions over a longer time are seen, then some redundant base level items could be removed and second tier becomes first tier etc.

 

It still would provide progression and incentive to play more.

 

I dont see this as an issue in design as a seasoned PVP'er would gradually move up in experience and be able to get the better items (for example it may require a previous level item to be owned and then acquire additional commendations or whatever to get the next level up). Likewise, for more of a casual PVP'er that prefers to Raid then they would have a fair chance to compete in PVP if they have put in the time to aquire via an OPs.

 

It would also mean that if a 'hardcore' PVPer does want to do the occasional OPs, they would have sufficient gear to come and contribute even though they may not have done the lower end content normally required to compete. And Visa-Versa, the Raiders have reasonable gear to compete in Warzones when they feel like it.

 

Granted the player that will play more and completed more of the game get the high end gear would have some advantage over the lower/newer player the balance would be there so you could still have fun and compete with entry level gear even though they may only win a smaller number of duels.

 

With a smaller difference in stats between the game types (by primarily removing Expertise), the player would then need to rely on their skills and tactics to win a duel or match and not have that purely dictated by the items the player has.

[Lord_Karsk]

Fail system is fail system. And the only players you see who support this fail system are wow players also known

in most cases as gaming newbies.Maybe the next guys who gets the star wars IP wont fail as hard as they have here.

 

If you make it take just as long to get gear with the same stats for doing pvp/pve with the only difference beeing cosmetic

to show others you pvp or pve you would not have this issue.And the progression from 49 to 50 would be smooth.

But sadly the developers in swtor like to copy every fail thing from wow.And just because that tiny % of Raiders dont want anyone else to be competetive in raiding unless they have raided themself. This is why GW2 will blow swtor out of the water.Because you dont have these fail game systems.

 

Gameplay should be about skill and ingame iq not who has the 3.47 % better gear. Braindead.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Lord_Karsk

[nickynickatine]

it is the one stat that differs pve from pvp

[revampt]

expertise should increase hp in pvp, this is the first game ive ever played where pve'rs have more hitpoints that pvp doesnt make sense to me

[Gren-Aluren]

@Customkb:

 

Apparently Bioware didn't understand it either because pre 1.2 you could easily do raids with PvP gear and do quite well in PvP with PvE gear. But honestly the outrageous bonuses it gives to damage is insane. Global damage is way too high and people day way too fast. Low level PvP is a hell of a lot more fun then 50 PvP is now for most people like the OP.

[JeramieCrowe]

@Customkb:

 

Apparently Bioware didn't understand it either because pre 1.2 you could easily do raids with PvP gear and do quite well in PvP with PvE gear. But honestly the outrageous bonuses it gives to damage is insane. Global damage is way too high and people day way too fast. Low level PvP is a hell of a lot more fun then 50 PvP is now for most people like the OP.

 

Yeah, there's gotta be something not working right. Long battles in PvP and a deeper health pool were very good points about the PvP that drew me to it. That's been BioWare's goal.

 

Something's not working right... I hope.

[Sybaris]

'Cause I don't want to raid. I want to PvP. That's why I PvP. Because I like PvP. PvP is fun. Raiding is fun too, but not so much for me. Maybe you like raiding. But I like PvPing. I don't want to raid in order to PvP because you like to raid in order to PvP. I like to only PvP, and not raid. Maybe you can just PvP, and buy PvP gear, so that I don't have to raid. I guess I'm selfish for wanting you to PvP in order to PvP, so that I don't have to raid, but I can't help it. Please don't make me raid. I don't want to. Please. I want to PvP. I like to PvP. I can teach you how if you'd like, then you can get PvP gear; recruit gear is easy to get. Did I mention that I like to PvP, and not raid? 'Cause I do. Thank you for understanding....... PvP.

 

 

.......

 

Is this guy serious? Expertise is horrible, making people actually have to PvP to be good at it. Pffft. I should be able to gear up to God status, then join a warzone and smite people without ever learning how to play objectives or work as a team.. I should just walk into my first warzone, and destroy everybody, rendering all strategy and skill completely useless.

[Karkais]

PvP stats (or PvP gear in general) exist for two reasons:

1. To prevent high end PvE players from having statistical dominance over players who only PvP.

2. To incentivize PvE players to queue, shortening queue times.

Im completely confused how pvp gear existing is going to incentivize PVE players to queue? In my opinion its completely opposite. PVP should be about fun, not gear-collecting.

 

You see, PvPers actually don't like gear progression because it creates an uneven playing field.

Um, from my experience, MMO PVPers are ALL about uneven playing field, thats pretty much all MMO PVP is. Gear centric.

 

Real PvP doesn't actually exist in most MMOs. Instead we have Raiding against AI and Raiding against other players. They are both actually PvE.

Well said.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Karkais

[HoosierDuke]

Well I am just asking a question, no need for the attitude mate. I dont think you understand my point though. I raised the thread to get some opinions not to get in a flaming war.

 

I would gather folks are flaming because they smell a troll on a subject that has literally been beat to death already in these forums, 100 times over.

Edited April 24, 2012 by HoosierDuke