Why Expertise Stat in PVP?

[Aussiedroid]

Hi All,

 

I have been wondering this for a while now, why is there a specific stat just for PVP?

 

From what I see, in level L10-49 no players use it and the matches seem to be more balanced and fun to play. Sure a higher level player has more in his arsenal but still does simular damage to the lowbies.

 

I hit L50 on my second character yesterday and noticed immediately the wide gap between those that have PVP gear with expertise and those without. Although I admit my stats are low by L50 standards right now, I would think that I would still be able to provide some benefit to the team being all L50s (just as a L10 would in the leveling warzones) but this is just simply not the case. I was unable to do almost any damage and was getting killed in a matter of a few hits! I tried a few games incase it was just a really good group we were playing but the experience was consistent and really no fun at all.

 

How can this disparity be good for balanced gameplay? By having Expertise in the game it is forcing us to get separate gear just for PVP simply to compete on the same level. In the mean time the players who have been L50 for longer and have their recruit PVP gear or upgraded to War-Hero stuff have a HUGE advantage over everyone else.

 

Sure I can appreciate if a character has been through OPs or other high level content and has got better gear that they should be more powerful, but the stat difference for better gear pales in comparrison to having several 100 expertise. They will still be over powered especially if I estimate the full Recruit set may have over 500+ expertise alone. Even with really good gear if I have no expertise I will be useless.

 

Why is this part of the warzone design? Can it be removed to bring back an equal playing field or offer warzones with and without (maybe unranked warzones without and ranked warzones with)?

 

Personally I would like to see this stat removed as I see it ruining L50 warzones.

 

If it wont or cant be removed then give us the option to queue in games without it.

 

Also, if this gear is to remain I would like to see another tab (ala Outfitter mod in WoW) for PVP gear setup so I can change at one click all my items to PVP and not have to change them one by one and have them taking up another 10 or so slots in my bags.

 

What do you all think?

[hchsiao]

The reason is simple.. Stop raider use their raid gear in PVP. It also stop pvper (who doesn't raid) complain the unfair advantage raider has. Edited April 23, 2012 by hchsiao

[Roccobb]

The recruit gear costs a total of what, 350k credits? Just buy a set and use it. It is all I am using on my 50 character.

 

I think it is fine the way it is. You should have to progress up in PVP like they have it. I am sorry, but I should not be able to completely defeat an opponent who has war hero gear on, 1 v 1, if I am wearing PVE armor.

 

They have said recruit gear is better than any PVE gear in PVP. I also do not see them changing this from the comments they have made about it.

[Yakito]

Because if they called it Resilience it would be even more clear that they couldn't come up with their own thing for separating PVP from PVE.

Always hated the PVP stat.

[EuphoricAnguish]

Buy the recruit gear.

[monkgryphon]

It allows the rewards of PVP to give you advantage in PVP, yet keep you separated from Raiders. It keeps those who have the ability to raid as much as possible and gain the best raid gear from having a significant advantage in PVP.

 

With Expertise, this makes it so you have to grind both if you want to be good at both, and will allow those who just pvp remain with the most potential for pvp.

[hchsiao]

If you were or are wow player you should know the reason.

 

However if you never played wow. PVPer were owned by raider with tier gear in vanilla wow. Although some of raider are damn fine pvper while pvper are bad. People will always blame the gear instead themselves.

 

WOW added separate set of gear and stats as well in BC and consist monitor the balance between pvp and pve gear.

[BlazingShadow]

Hi All,

 

I have been wondering this for a while now, why is there a specific stat just for PVP?

 

From what I see, in level L10-49 no players use it and the matches seem to be more balanced and fun to play. Sure a higher level player has more in his arsenal but still does simular damage to the lowbies.

 

I hit L50 on my second character yesterday and noticed immediately the wide gap between those that have PVP gear with expertise and those without. Although I admit my stats are low by L50 standards right now, I would think that I would still be able to provide some benefit to the team being all L50s (just as a L10 would in the leveling warzones) but this is just simply not the case. I was unable to do almost any damage and was getting killed in a matter of a few hits! I tried a few games incase it was just a really good group we were playing but the experience was consistent and really no fun at all.

 

How can this disparity be good for balanced gameplay? By having Expertise in the game it is forcing us to get separate gear just for PVP simply to compete on the same level. In the mean time the players who have been L50 for longer and have their recruit PVP gear or upgraded to War-Hero stuff have a HUGE advantage over everyone else.

 

Sure I can appreciate if a character has been through OPs or other high level content and has got better gear that they should be more powerful, but the stat difference for better gear pales in comparrison to having several 100 expertise. They will still be over powered especially if I estimate the full Recruit set may have over 500+ expertise alone. Even with really good gear if I have no expertise I will be useless.

 

Why is this part of the warzone design? Can it be removed to bring back an equal playing field or offer warzones with and without (maybe unranked warzones without and ranked warzones with)?

 

Personally I would like to see this stat removed as I see it ruining L50 warzones.

 

If it wont or cant be removed then give us the option to queue in games without it.

 

Also, if this gear is to remain I would like to see another tab (ala Outfitter mod in WoW) for PVP gear setup so I can change at one click all my items to PVP and not have to change them one by one and have them taking up another 10 or so slots in my bags.

 

What do you all think?

 

Blame WoW. People crying about raid gear owning in pvp.

 

*puts on silver beard and tobacco pipe* Back in my game, we didn't have no "Pee Vee Pee" gear... it was all CRAFTED, and you had to pay HARD CASH fer it. It'd be fitted with all the bells n whistles ya could afferd from crafting yerself or gathering credits. And then heroics came along with them new-fangled jewelry sets, but it werent no issue since the bonuses were marginal and the heroics were easy to complete. Thems were the good ol' days.

 

Anyways, spend 350k (like 2 days of dailies) on recruit gear and you'll do fine.

[customkb]

The fact that you're asking to have Expertise removed from the game just goes to show you don't understand PvP. The point of Expertise is so that PvE doesn't dominate PvP. Furthermore, so that PvP doesn't become a trivial side past time for PvErs.

 

Expertise makes it so PvE gear is useless in PvP. This is so that someone who runs Operations all day and gets full Rakata gear can't then go Que for PvP and roll everyone there. If dedicated PvErs can roll over everyone in PvP, then why would there be dedicated PvPers? Why would all those dedicated PvPers want to play if someone who just runs PvE all day can come along and roflstomp them? It makes PvP become just a side past time for PvErs to mess around with and completely eliminates any chance of being a dedicated PvPer.

 

Yes, you could argue to just give the same gear from Operations as rewards for PvP. However, then Operations would decrease drastically. That being because most people play for the gear and "oh look at all my epicxzzzz!!!" rather than the actually content. So, if you could get the Rakata gear from just failing through PvP, why bother wasting time putting together a Operation group and trying to get Hard Modes done?

 

The gap in Expertise between Recruit, Battle Master, and War Hero is no different than the gap between PvE gear. If you've played more and spent more time, you deserve more. It's just progression, the whole reason any of us play a game. You play to progress, to become better and achieve more to obtain better rewards. Someone who just started out in PvE doesn't get to go straight into a Operation and match a full Rakata geared player on the dps charts. No, they have to run some Hard Mode Flash Points and run some Normal Operations so that they can get their Rakata gear. Just like a new PvPer has to get rolled for a while till they get to the same point as others in PvP and match them on gear. Simple Progression.

 

Expertise is needed simply to allow people who only want to PvP get to only PvP and not be punished for it. Just like how some Specs are better for PvP than PvE or vice versa. We need stuff made for PvP only and stuff made for PvE only so that neither side loses out on being important. Otherwise, one will just become side content for the other.

[pipda]

Never been a fan of PVP stats in any game that I have seen it. Pretty much every game that implements it spends untold amounts of time afterwards trying to tweak it so that it is balanced. After seeing the fits it gave Blizzard not sure why developers keep going down that road instead of thinking up an original system that wasn't so flawed and tired out.

 

I think Guild Wars 2 is making it so that in their instanced (Battlergrounds, Warfronts, Warzone...whatever they are) everyone will be boosted to max level (80), have all skills unlocked and stats propped up. On top of that everyone gets the exact same gear. WvWvW allows you to use your PVE gear.

 

I am curious to see how this system works, I have hopes for it because it addresses what I don't like in PVP and hopefully makes it more about skill with gear not being a factor. Think more like a FPS where you starting guns are as lethal as our end level ones...it comes down to how well you use them.

 

As for rewards there are plenty of things to give people in PVP. Since GW2 uses cosmetic gear they could hand that out, currency(gold, credits), pets, mounts and so on.

 

I wish more games would not turn PVP into a gear grind and leave that to the PVE world. Guess we will see in a few months how this system works out.

Edited April 23, 2012 by pipda

[Aussiedroid]

Thanks for the different views guys!!

 

I am not against spending the money on the Recruit set, I was just trying to show the disparity between players that results from this stat. It basically enforces the use of these items thats all.

 

In regards to the comments about Raiders vs PVP, I am not against having PVP gear or visa versa .. so if there is a raid set that PVPers dont/wont get then there could be a simular item you can still get in PVP with simular specs ... just without the special stat. Also PVP could offer other rewards and benefits to keep you playing that doesnt force you to need a special stat.

 

Using this logic of progression on items and that it is needed to give us something to work towards, then why isnt there a special stat for Raiding/FPs? Or a special Questing stat to help you there as well... Hope you can see my point.

 

Yes I did play Wow for a little but didnt understand the need for the stat there either other than giving hardcore PVPers a even bigger advantage.

 

Its my view ... but I welcome yours too.

[monkgryphon]

Thanks for the different views guys!!

 

I am not against spending the money on the Recruit set, I was just trying to show the disparity between players that results from this stat. It basically enforces the use of these items thats all.

 

In regards to the comments about Raiders vs PVP, I am not against having PVP gear or visa versa .. so if there is a raid set that PVPers dont/wont get then there could be a simular item you can still get in PVP with simular specs ... just without the special stat. Also PVP could offer other rewards and benefits to keep you playing that doesnt force you to need a special stat.

 

Using this logic of progression on items and that it is needed to give us something to work towards, then why isnt there a special stat for Raiding/FPs? Or a special Questing stat to help you there as well... Hope you can see my point.

 

Yes I did play Wow for a little but didnt understand the need for the stat there either other than giving hardcore PVPers a even bigger advantage.

 

Its my view ... but I welcome yours too.

 

Expertise is the difficulty between players, base stats in raid gear is the difficulty between players and NPCs.

[Anti_Bodies]

A new 50 SHOULD be significantly weaker then a geared 50. Once you hit max level, progression is done through gear. If their wasn't a significant gap between new 50 and pro 50, you wouldn't have a game.

 

I respect those dominating matches with 20,000+ HP.

[Arkerus]

I love this thinly veiled attempt as a "regular guy just asking a regular question" to complain about expertise.

 

Look buddy, you don't get to bring your uber powerful gear into PvP and stomp the snot out of everyone. A PvP stat is a good thing because it forces you to PvP to get the rewards. They are two different progression trees.

 

And NO...a PvE stat would not be a better fix. You would still walk right into PvP and stop the crap out of people who don't have the time to run HM operations on a weekly basis. You would also complain because the PvE stat was taking up your precious stat slots.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Arkerus

[Aussiedroid]

I love this thinly veiled attempt as a "regular guy just asking a regular question" to complain about expertise.

 

Look buddy, you don't get to bring your uber powerful gear into PvP and stomp the snot out of everyone. A PvP stat is a good thing because it forces you to PvP to get the rewards. They are two different progression trees.

 

And NO...a PvE stat would not be a better fix. You would still walk right into PvP and stop the crap out of people who don't have the time to run HM operations on a weekly basis. You would also complain because the PvE stat was taking up your precious stat slots.

 

Well I am just asking a question, no need for the attitude mate. I dont think you understand my point though. I raised the thread to get some opinions not to get in a flaming war.

 

I dont want to do what you are suggesting, that would be no fun either, what I am wanting is a more even playing field and Expertise I see as an issue here. The best games I have had in PVP have been the evenly matched and close call games and so far from my main and now with my alt at L50 I dont see this at all.

 

I do expect to be the bottom of the group fresh at 50 but dont want the divide to be so large that its unenjoyable.

 

If its a concern that all those that run Ops will slaughter those that just play PVP then another set of items just for PVPers can be introduced, something of same level and power. It doesnt need the Expertise stat for this to compete. PVE is useless it seems in PVP, but its not the case the other way around .. PVP seems quite capable in Ops and HMs. So where is the equvalence here .. again seems this stat is the issue and with some better design could be avoided.

[JeramieCrowe]

I've never understood the need for specific PvP stats, either. PvP worked just fine before developers decided to try and "reward" us with stuff...

[Arkerus]

Well I am just asking a question, no need for the attitude mate. I dont think you understand my point though. I raised the thread to get some opinions not to get in a flaming war.

 

I dont want to do what you are suggesting, that would be no fun either, what I am wanting is a more even playing field and Expertise I see as an issue here. The best games I have had in PVP have been the evenly matched and close call games and so far from my main and now with my alt at L50 I dont see this at all.

 

I do expect to be the bottom of the group fresh at 50 but dont want the divide to be so large that its unenjoyable.

 

If its a concern that all those that run Ops will slaughter those that just play PVP then another set of items just for PVPers can be introduced, something of same level and power. It doesnt need the Expertise stat for this to compete. PVE is useless it seems in PVP, but its not the case the other way around .. PVP seems quite capable in Ops and HMs. So where is the equvalence here .. again seems this stat is the issue and with some better design could be avoided.

 

The reason why your best games were from L1-49 was because of the bolster effect making everyone ABOUT the same. Now you have to deal with the "gear affect". Yes, its a grind for a while but then it gets fun once you have some of the gear. NO one likes to admit it, but everyone wants slightly better gear so they can get a small leg up on someone.

 

The best you can hope is that bioware gives a better starter set for PvP, thats it. Blaming expertise is not the answer.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Arkerus

[mArchangel]

customkb wrote:

 

The fact that you're asking to have Expertise removed from the game just goes to show you don't understand PvP. The point of Expertise is so that PvE doesn't dominate PvP. Furthermore, so that PvP doesn't become a trivial side past time for PvErs.

 

Expertise makes it so PvE gear is useless in PvP. This is so that someone who runs Operations all day and gets full Rakata gear can't then go Que for PvP and roll everyone there. If dedicated PvErs can roll over everyone in PvP, then why would there be dedicated PvPers? Why would all those dedicated PvPers want to play if someone who just runs PvE all day can come along and roflstomp them? It makes PvP become just a side past time for PvErs to mess around with and completely eliminates any chance of being a dedicated PvPer.

 

 

Comment: Well mate, starting with telling the OP that he has no idea of anything in regards to PvP is NOT a good way to start. Let me enlighten you a little and tell YOU that you don't know what you are talking about here. IF a player is so dedicated to PvP then why not rolling a toon on a PvP server? Or even better, have Expertise stat applying to PvP server players and not to PvE servers. Let's wait and see who has more fun. Secondly it is ultimately a PvE game like it or not. Last I looked it was listed as MMORPG not as MMO Dueling Game.

The argument to get romped in WZ by full Rakata geared characters as a reasoning to have a dedicated stat for PvPers is plain circular and silly. Now we have PvPers romping the dedicated PvEers. Awesome trade. It's a shift in balance not a solution-quite the opposite actually.

To have it so, that dedication in PvP is not trivial, it would suffice to provide titles, fluff gear, UNIQUE mounts, speciual emotes and perhaps an option to have access to a special design outfit (empty sockets) dedicated to PvPers. I remember vividly the days in WoW when people in Stormwind were in awe seeing the GrandMarshal of our faction.

 

He also stated:

Yes, you could argue to just give the same gear from Operations as rewards for PvP. However, then Operations would decrease drastically. That being because most people play for the gear and "oh look at all my epicxzzzz!!!" rather than the actually content. So, if you could get the Rakata gear from just failing through PvP, why bother wasting time putting together a Operation group and trying to get Hard Modes done?

 

The gap in Expertise between Recruit, Battle Master, and War Hero is no different than the gap between PvE gear. If you've played more and spent more time, you deserve more. It's just progression, the whole reason any of us play a game. You play to progress, to become better and achieve more to obtain better rewards. Someone who just started out in PvE doesn't get to go straight into a Operation and match a full Rakata geared player on the dps charts. No, they have to run some Hard Mode Flash Points and run some Normal Operations so that they can get their Rakata gear. Just like a new PvPer has to get rolled for a while till they get to the same point as others in PvP and match them on gear. Simple Progression.

 

Comment: Here we go again. Partially I addressed this in my first comment but to make it even clearer: PvP is good and fun , but as soon as you attach gear to it with different stats you ruin the game, the balance, the community......pretty much everything. In short: You break the cohesion of the two aspects. PvE and PvP.

On that note: All stating pro expertise are sounding like they want to have an unfair advantage to win. And they want it due to participation rather than achievement, therefore I am so bold to say, that the majority of powerful PvPers are not powerful due to their skill but due to their gear. This IMHO cannot be tolerated really from a gameplay point of view. And why does every game design for PvP mean one has to get rolled for god knows how long before one is allowed to have fun? Don't you see the flaw in design right there??

Progression should not happen through Warzones but through FPs, levelling content, world drops and mainly OPS. If one fails to organise a lousily small group of 8 players, that commit to this cause regularly in order to achieve this, one needs to be 100% honest with oneself and ask: Should I play a MULTIplayer game at all? Am I socially willing and able to do this or am I better off with things like ME3?

 

And lastly he stated:

Expertise is needed simply to allow people who only want to PvP get to only PvP and not be punished for it. Just like how some Specs are better for PvP than PvE or vice versa. We need stuff made for PvP only and stuff made for PvE only so that neither side loses out on being important. Otherwise, one will just become side content for the other.

 

Comment: As said earlier people that want to PvP all the time should roll on a PvP server. That is what they are intended for. Have some fun there. Expertise also removes spontaneity when it comes to open world PvP even on PvE servers as Ilum experienced folks know. Sorry but the stat is archaic, a copy of a concept that never worked and surely a 100% fun inhbitor.

Edited April 23, 2012 by mArchangel

[Satanski]

The reason is simple.. Stop raider use their raid gear in PVP. It also stop pvper (who doesn't raid) complain the unfair advantage raider has.

 

So maybe they should make two different games if people are so stupid.

[OsarionRDM]

The fact that you're asking to have Expertise removed from the game just goes to show you don't understand PvP. The point of Expertise is so that PvE doesn't dominate PvP. Furthermore, so that PvP doesn't become a trivial side past time for PvErs.

 

Make all gear and abilities have alternative stats/powers exclusive to PvP, when in PvP. Bam, no more need for Expertise stats OR class nerfs which screw over PvE. Simple solutions and whatnot.

[Elkard]

Fight naked. At the moment, there is no real PvP--PKing was always better--so arguments for either case are moot. PvP should be about team work except in matches speifically designed for 1v1. Once the team comes into play the fighting should have a real purpose--not Alderan style--but warzones with objectives that require some real work for teams.

 

The current system induces trade-killing and syphoning off others to get gear. The reasons to PvP become about the gear; not the actual goals for BZs that affect the greater conflict in the galaxy.

 

Make PvP gear and PvE gear useless in the other's arena. Difficult. Special stats can be one way, but not the way to end the tail-chasing commentary.

 

Even so, lesser geared people working together have often beaten fully geared individuals (gank this). Until true rated warzones and other types of PvP special events come along, gear plus skill will have little meaning. Enjoy Huttball and see what the next few months, and years, produce. Calling people Fanbois and grinders, and such does not advance the conversation or the profession (raiding and PvP-only are professions).

 

Until then, the dawg will keep chasing its tail; best to focus on something else, like where that strange gold and silver crystal came from...and where did my towel get off to?

[Izorii]

Personaly I dont like anything which says "The more you PvP the better your stats get for PvP. I dont like having to have two sacks of PvP gear and I think having PvP stats/gear does nothing but force casual players out of PvP.

[Nexdine]

Personally I find the idea of being a "dedicated PvP:er" pretty silly. I don't understand either why anyone would cater to such an idea, there should just be players, and getting good gear should come either from raiding or from PvP:ing - the high-level gear in both should all max out at the same level with the same stats, so you could raid your hiney off and get great gear or you could PvP your hiney off and get great gear - and then you could wear the same gear to do either raids or PvP and still be just as viable.

 

As a non-PvP:er (at least so far) I personally find it annoying that there is such a useless barrier to entry. I don't have 350k to spend (being fairly new to 50 and heavily invested in crafting) and even if I did I've spent considerable time and effort sifting through the extremely meager and limited amount of attractive gear available to craft a specific look. Now I have to go buy a "space pimp" outfit for my Smuggler just to be borderline viable to get started on PvP?

 

Yea no.

[SajmanPeetee]

It's just my opinion, but everyone that PvPs should be given the same stats at the start of the warzone so it makes for a completely even playfield and the PvP gear should be strictly cosmetic. Edited April 23, 2012 by SajmanPeetee

[JeramieCrowe]

It's just my opinion, but everyone that PvPs should be given the same stats at the start of the warzone so it makes for a completely even playfield and the PvP gear should be strictly cosmetic.

 

Absolutely. The day the first developer separated PvP and gave it its own stats and started offering rewards for PvPing was the day real PvP died.