What I Think Happened to Revan

[Sarog]

Sorry mate, but you just blew my mind. I intended, and intend now, absolutely no offence. I simply read 10-15(ish) posts by you in this thread repeatedly pressing on and on, saying how horrible the Foundry was, how unsavable Revan was, and overall why Revan should be burned and forgotten. To me, it sounded like ridiculous over the board rage.

 

Again, read more closely. That you think I'm raging about the foundry proves that you're just skimming my posts and not following the debate. I don't even think the foundry is horrible, you'll notice I say I disagree with a poster who says the foundry was out of character for Revan, since I don't think the foundry was bad and rather that it fits his narrative quite nicely.

 

I also haven't used in any particular emotive language, nor have I talked about my personal feelings about at Revan at any point (as in my overall like or dislike of him, which I haven't discussed). I have used the odd word in CAPS for emphasis, which I suppose could be misread as me shouting if you're skimming posts, but this idea that I'm raging is a notion that you are bringing into the conversation, not one that is exists because of my emotional state.

 

To recap what I've been saying here so that you don't feel the urge to skim,

 

- I think the foundry is fine. It makes Revan's second life mirror his first, showing a synergy in narrative progression and demonstrating quite nicely how characters fall to the dark side. I don't necessarily agree with bringing Revan three hundred years forward in time to do this, but as an instance of character development it is fine.

 

- I do think, however, that the foundry demonstrates the last possible incarnation of Revan wherein any progress can be made. From the perspective of character progression, Revan has both completed his journey to become his ultimate self, and he has crossed what we call "the moral event horizon", meaning that his character has no further progress to make. I think that any effort to redeem Revan again would constitute bad writing on a number of levels because he's been written into a corner here. That's a critical analysis of literature-in-gaming, but just because I'm being critical doesn't mean I'm being angry. I'm sure you've at some point in your life written an essay or debated something without being emotional about it.

 

You do realize how serious it is to call someone Hitler right?

 

It fits. I'm not sure why people freak out so much about me making the comparison when I demonstrated several times it because Revan used the same moral principles. I don't know if some Revan fans are of the idea that he should be immaculate and nothing critical ever said about him, or whatever.

 

Revan wanted to commit massive genocide, and his reasons were not sane or logical. Discussing such particulars of story progression is what story forums are for. Fair play I didn't intend to have an extended argument about it, but a guy contested my use of a term, we started debating it, and that is how discussions progress into critical debates.

 

And spending all this effort to talk about how insane and illogical Revan was showed me a level of malice I have never seen in a forum post before

 

I must assume that you have a limited amount of experience with the internet, because if I am the most malicious person you've encountered in online discourse then you have certainly had an enviably sheltered experience with the internet, considering that have I haven't insulted any posters, used any offensive slurs about other posters, called posters or the writers unintelligent, circumvented the profanity filter, demonstrated any real emotive language, or any of those other staples of internet nerd rage.

 

But no, I am not discussing these things because I hate the character and want to gripe about him. I am discussing these things because they are present in the narrative and the purpose of a story board is to discuss and debate the contents of the narrative.

 

Take a deep breath mate, and think before you post.

 

I appreciate your concern for my emotional health, but I assure you that I am calm, healthy, and happy. I am an old hat at debating things on the internet so I do not get emotional while doing so. I suggest that you read more closely and not apply preconceived judgments based on what you think I'm saying.

 

If this post still seems to you like I'm raging, despite my best efforts to convince you otherwise, I think the following article may be worth reading to avoid such misunderstandings in future.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

 

As I come to story forums to talk about the story and not talk about myself, you'll understand if I'm uncomfortable having an extended personal conversation like this in the middle of a debate, so if you still aren't convinced then I'll leave you to your opinion and not spend any more forum space trying to assure you otherwise.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Sarog

[Spartanik]

If the Republic and the jedi order hadn't resolved to wiping the Sith population in the first place then this would have all turned out differently, the Sith were beaten, the Republic and the Order could have shown the citizens freedom and offered what I imagine would be the majority of the Sith population membership to the Republic, without the Sith Lords reigning over them, and the Force Sensitive Sith could have been taken in by the order.

 

My point being, I believe all of this could have been averted, but the defenders of peace and justice in the galaxy resorted to genocide.

 

I was under the assumption that the sith destroyed thenselfs, not the jedi or the republic, at the end of the hyperspace wars. I recall The empress teta fleet pursuing naga sadow, but i dont recall any genocide or any claim that the republic made on the sith empire dominion.

anyway so this is untrue?

Edited April 24, 2012 by Spartanik

[Rayla_Felana]

I was under the assumption that the sith destroyed thenselfs, not the jedi or the republic, at the end of the hyperspace wars. I recall The empress teta fleet pursuing naga sadow, but i dont recall any genocide or any claim that the republic made on the sith empire dominion.

anyway so this is untrue?

 

Considering Master Gnost-Dural admitted that this was their mistake, I think it stands at point.

And this:

 

Naga Sadow managed to flee back to the Sith Empire, but a living, breathing Ludo Kressh was waiting for him in ambush. Having discovered Sadow's plan to assassinate him, Kressh had allowed the new Sith Lord to think him dead. His attack on Sadow's fortress had been a feint intended to lull Sadow into complacency, but in the end Kressh's complex plans came to naught. He was killed when one of Sadow's vessels slammed into his own during the frenzied Sith battle over Korriban.

The Republic armadas arrived while the Sith fleets battled each other, and managed to annihilate them both in the cross-fire. Sadow sacrificed the remains of his fleet to ensure his own survival. Destroying his pursuers with tricks and sorcery, he limped away from the engagement aboard his damaged flagship.

 

In the aftermath of the battle, Supreme Chancellor Pultimo of the Republic ordered an invasion of Sith space. The Republic and the Jedi Order then embarked on a military expedition throughout the territories ruled by the Sith Empire, to search out all remaining Sith strongholds and destroy them.The attack was temporarily averted when Shar Dakhan ordered suicide attacks, forcing the Republic forces to retreat but many Sith killed themselves ritually, giving an advantage to the Republic fleet to win the War.

[darthHayden]

Guess what he is alive!!!!! (gasp) he used a ability what some might think of like a force teelport

[KorinHyvek]

Keep in mind this is a Revan who's both insane, and has spent the last three hundred years with his lifespan artificially extended by the Emperor. I don't think he was at peak form in the final confrontation.

[Temeluchus]

I was under the assumption that the sith destroyed thenselfs, not the jedi or the republic, at the end of the hyperspace wars. I recall The empress teta fleet pursuing naga sadow, but i dont recall any genocide or any claim that the republic made on the sith empire dominion.

anyway so this is untrue?

 

This is true and so is Rayla's response. To be more specific though the Republic started wiping out Imperial populations on the Sith planets they invaded, in essence they became what they were fighting against. Master Gnost does pretty much says that the Republic's actions at the end of the Great Hyperspace War have set the stage for the war today.

[Spartanik]

This is true and so is Rayla's response. To be more specific though the Republic started wiping out Imperial populations on the Sith planets they invaded, in essence they became what they were fighting against. Master Gnost does pretty much says that the Republic's actions at the end of the Great Hyperspace War have set the stage for the war today.

 

Pardon me but setting the stage could have meant a reasonable number of things. I wasnt aware that The republic or the Jedi comited genocide of imperial populations, nor Master Gnost says that.

In the aftermath of the battle, Supreme Chancellor Pultimo of the Republic ordered an invasion of Sith space. The Republic and the Jedi Order then embarked on a military expedition throughout the territories ruled by the Sith Empire, to search out all remaining Sith strongholds and destroy them.The attack was temporarily averted when Shar Dakhan ordered suicide attacks, forcing the Republic forces to retreat but many Sith killed themselves ritually, giving an advantage to the Republic fleet to win the War.

This explains it also there is no mention of jedi or republic wiping out Civilizations. In fact the Republic were forced to retreat, leaving The sith to destroy themselfs. we know naga sadow, then setled in Yavin, and Vitiate in dromund kass. But jedi and Republic cominting genocide and wiping out a civilization i just dont see it there.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Spartanik

[AlyxDinas]

I was under the assumption that the sith destroyed thenselfs, not the jedi or the republic, at the end of the hyperspace wars. I recall The empress teta fleet pursuing naga sadow, but i dont recall any genocide or any claim that the republic made on the sith empire dominion.

anyway so this is untrue?

 

A large portion of the population actually committed ritual suicide or else engaged in suicide tactics under Shar Dakhan's leadership. Any Jedi involvement was largely levied against rogue Sith Lords and dangerous relics and not the general populous. And in many cases, we know that the Jedi (particularly Odan Urr) actually just stripped these rogue Sith of their connection to the force.

[Prenavo]

Revan isn't dead. He disappeared and where he ended up will likely be part of a larger story arc and future expansion.

[Rayla_Felana]

Pardon me but setting the stage could have meant a reasonable number of things. I wasnt aware that The republic or the Jedi comited genocide of imperial populations, nor Master Gnost says that.

 

This explains it also there is no mention of jedi or republic wiping out Civilizations. In fact the Republic were forced to retreat, leaving The sith to destroy themselfs. we know naga sadow, then setled in Yavin, and Vitiate in dromund kass. But jedi and Republic cominting genocide and wiping out a civilization i just dont see it there.

 

Read the actual Tales of the Jedi book, they were wiping out their civilization and people wholesale, bombing anything in sight, Gnost-Dural outright states that the way of which they ended the war was a mistake in hindsight, because what they did pretty much etched revenge in the minds of every Imperial, and it has been that way ever since.

 

For one of the few times in the history of the Sith vs the Jedi Order and Galactic Republic, the Sith Empire could actually justify their actions, this justification was far worse than we see though, because it didn't only set the stage for the Great Galactic War and Cold War, but every Sith waged war ever since.

[Captain_Zone]

Read the actual Tales of the Jedi book, they were wiping out their civilization and people wholesale, bombing anything in sight, Gnost-Dural outright states that the way of which they ended the war was a mistake in hindsight, because what they did pretty much etched revenge in the minds of every Imperial, and it has been that way ever since.

 

For one of the few times in the history of the Sith vs the Jedi Order and Galactic Republic, the Sith Empire could actually justify their actions, this justification was far worse than we see though, because it didn't only set the stage for the Great Galactic War and Cold War, but every Sith waged war ever since.

 

Having read the Great Hyperspace War, I agree 100%. What the Jedi and Republic did was completely uncalled for! The Sith were defeated already! But instead of extending a helping hand to aid them in rebuilding, they elected for Genocide instead. Seriously ****** up, imo.

[angry-broom]

Revan wont die, more money to be made! THE FOUNDRY WAS MERELY A SETBACK zzzzzzzzzzzz, I hope they redeem him again, would make me laugh and lose all faith in biowares storytelling, but seriously if he did come back, he would have to be grey at least, none of the back to the light AGAIN nonsense

[Captain_Zone]

Revan wont die, more money to be made! THE FOUNDRY WAS MERELY A SETBACK zzzzzzzzzzzz, I hope they redeem him again, would make me laugh and lose all faith in biowares storytelling, but seriously if he did come back, he would have to be grey at least, none of the back to the light AGAIN nonsense

 

Which is why Fold Space is the most rational explanation. He popped smoke, broke contact, and is probably recuperating someplace. *shrug*

[Crimson_Paladin]

1 - Speculative. That the CIVILIANS of the empire would fight the republic no matter what, even if their military and their sith overlords were removed from the picture, is EXTREMELY speculative and rather contrary to human nature. And beside the point as well, because such civilians would never pose the same threat to the galaxy nor be agents of the dark-side driven omnicide that Revan was reacting to begin with.

They're anything but helpless. Ever since Grand Moff Vaiken, the Empire has had a mandatory military service for non force sensitives. The civilians of the Empire are more than capable of fighting, because a most of them are presumably ex-military.

 

Do you really think they'd just lie down and let the hated Republic take them over? Heck, do you really expect the Republic to just take them over? They elected a Supreme Chancellor who advocates the compete eradication of the Sith Empire. Chances are the Republic is willing to repeat what they did at the end of the Great Hyperspace War.

 

2 - The methodical ethnic cleansing of billions of civilians wouldn't be tantamount to the holocaust? Flawed assertion again. You're defining the holocaust on the specifics of what motivated it, not the specifics of what it was. The holocaust was the methodical ethnic cleansing of millions of human beings, ergo the same thing as what Revan would have enacted.

Of all the genocides carried out in human history, the Holocaust is one of the least fitting comparisons. It's not about establishing a master race (which the Sith, especially the more traditionalist ones, are trying to do). It's not about eliminating people simply because of a few harmless traits are considered "undesirable". The Holocaust was carried out on already subjugated people, most of whom were of unaggressive nations that were subjugated. What Revan is doing is more along the lines of one of the genocides that don't get the spotlight, that have been mostly forgotten. All genocides are about eliminating racial or cultural groups. Fitting that criteria does not automatically make it most tantamount to the one, particularly heinous genocide that everybody actually cares about. Not when more similar actions, in both method and purpose, have been carried out throughout history.

 

 

Except the existence of such sith, including Revan himself, proves categorically that sith ideology is not dependent on sith ancestry and that the fundamental problem that causes dark side holy wars against the republic and the jedi is an ideological split amongst force users. Nationalistic dogma is secondary and a mere symptom of what Revan is reacting to, not the purpose of his attentions. Given that Revan is specifically targeting people with sith ancestry, non force sensitive civilian noncombatants included in his genocidal plans, he is therefore using race as a scapegoat for an ideological problem.

Revan and Malak were converts, brought into the Sith by the Sith Empire. Do you really think they would have fallen if the Sith hadn't been waiting to corrupt them? No, getting rid of the SIth Empire wouldn't elimate the Sith idology. It would, however, be reasonable for someone at the time to assume that such would cripple it. Having one upstart Jedi talk to Sith Ghosts and cause a rebellion only to get slapped down every 1000 years sounds a lot better than having about three Sith-related wars in that same time period.

 

The problem Revan is responding to is the SITH (dark side force religion with its origin in the Dark Jedi), to which the EMPIRE is secondary, and more specifically the Emperor. You're argument presupposes that EMPIRE > SITH, both as a threat to the galaxy and as the fundamental root of the problem, neither of which is true. Revan is responding to the threat posed by the SITH (dark side force users) to the rest of the galaxy (galactic omnicide), not the political interests of a nationalistic empire. If the problem was the empire itself as a political force, and not the darkside cult in charge of that political force, then he could just as easily have directed his army of super droids to dismantle the empire as a political force without having to commence ethnic cleansing on non combatants. Considering that he probably knows that force-blind non combatants aren't a threat to all life in the galaxy, we can assume that he's including them in the genocidal plan not because their nationalism is an affront to all life, but because he fears their sith genes make them predisposed to the dark side (which, as personified in Vitiate, is what Revan is trying to protect the galaxy from). Given that Revan himself has fallen to the dark side to save the galaxy from the dark side, and given the logical fallibility of his plan given the knowledge we must assume he has, it is clear that Revan's line of argument is logically invalid.

Sith or no Sith, galactic omnicide or no galactic omnicide, the Sith Empire is a major expansionist power that seeks to destroy the Republic. Do you think the people of the Empire are simply playing along to please their masters? No, they want to destroy the Republic as much as the Sith, possibly even more.

 

Factoring in the whole galactic omnicide thing, and unhinged as it is, it's still the lesser of two evils.

 

 

A bunch of civilians, scattered across many different worlds and deprived of the only leadership they have ever known and their armed forces, would continue to prosecute a war of conquest against the galaxy's leading superpower AND the army of super killbots who just wiped out all the sith lords and the imperial military? With sticks and harsh language?

They'd still resist, with blasters and the training they themselves received.

 

Sorry, but that statement is baseless. The imperials are nationalists, not a zombie hivemind, and are subject to morale and logistics the same as anybody else. Without their military or their sith overlords, the civilian non combatants wouldn't pose a threat to the galaxy. The most that could be expected of them would be civil discontent and feeble resistance, but nothing that could threaten the republic military AND the kill bot Horde, and certainly nothing that would threaten galactic omnicide. Killing all the civilians would be a worse dark side act than anything the civilians could do if they were spared, if they even tried anything to begin with.

People probably thought the same of those that survived the Great Hyperspace War. In about 3,600 years the New Republic will probably feel similarly about the then-defeated Imperial Remnant. You don't need Sith to hate the Republic after what they did, nor did they need Sith to organize their military into a disciplined fighting force.

 

Again, you are fixating on incidental details rather than the fundamental moral principles involved. You may as well argue that blowing up a green plane with a red bomb is a completely different thing than blowing up a yellow cruise ship with a blue bomb. It doesn't matter. When you compare things on a MORAL basis, the MORAL principles are what matter. In a different discussion involving military strategy, the socio-political climate, and a side-by-side comparison of facial hair, yes there would be differences worth discussing. In a moral context, what matters is that both figures planned a methodical racial genocide against civilian non-combatants based exclusively on genetic traits rather than a person-by-person threat assessment in order to safeguard what they felt were the interests of their nation. The PRINCIPLE is identical and therefore the moral implications are interchangeable.

No they're not. As I said, of all the genocides that people have carried out over the years, the ones the Nazis did are one of the poorer comparisons. Every genocide has been about wiping out a racical group or culture (which are often closely interconnected). You can't simply equate genocide to the Nazis, because they're neither the inventors nor the codifiers of the concept. Revan's plans have nothing to do with establishing a master race, or eliminating people simply because they've got some harmless traits that are not looked upon as desirable. Revan isn't trying to wipe out groups that anybody could see are no threat and never were a threat.

 

What he's doing is more like what the Imperium does regularly in Warhammer 40,000: eliminating very real threats that can and will wipe them out given the chance, which also happen to have a very, very strong correlation to race.

 

 

The point of the killbot horde is not to win a political windfall for the Republic. The point of the killbot horde is not to ensure the republic's nationalistic supremacy until the end of time.

 

The point of the killbot horde is protect the galaxy from omnicide at the hands of dark side practitioners.

 

So, if Revan were sane, he could accomplish his goal using the same tools available without having to go holocaust on the human population of the outer rim.

Yes it's a mad, unhinged plan. No, it's not unprecedented in Republic history. Look at how the Great Hyperspace War turned out. Given who's in charge of the Republic right now, chances are that should the Empire lose in the near future, it'll play out very similarly to 1300 years ago.

 

Your argument blurrs points. You have lumped the POLITICAL EXISTENCE of the empire as an expansionist nation in with METAPHYSICAL AIMS of Vitiate and the sith, whereas the two are very much distinct from each other and one is completely ignorant of the other. The empire and its people are just a tool to the Emperor, and they are ignorant of his goals. Revan is not ignorant of the Emperor's goals, he is reacting to them. Revan's plan isn't about politics (though, I dare say that committing genocide in order to wipe out feelings of cultural and nationalistic pride is just as irredeemably evil as the alternative), it is about the threat of the dark siders ending all life through the use of the dark side of the force.

Both the politics of the Empire and the Emperor's plans are a threat to the Republic. And the loss of the Sith and the Emperor won't change the Empire's fervent anti-Republic sentiment. In fact, it'll probably worsen it. And you don't need some force sensitive overlords to build up a formidable military force.

 

Imperial civilians are COMPLETELY TRIVIAL on the subject of thwarting Vitiate's plan of nomming the galaxy, because the civilians are incapable of killing the galaxy. And yet Revan was going to wipe them all out. Wiping them all out to kill their nationalistic pride would have been evil, but wiping them out to stop galactic omnicide is evil, really stupid, and amusingly hypocritical. Ergo, Revan is mad.

As I said, disregarding galactic omnicide, they're still a group that hates the Republic and want to destroy them.

[Sarog]

They're anything but helpless. Ever since Grand Moff Vaiken, the Empire has had a mandatory military service for non force sensitives. The civilians of the Empire are more than capable of fighting, because a most of them are presumably ex-military.

 

Do you really think they'd just lie down and let the hated Republic take them over? Heck, do you really expect the Republic to just take them over?

 

You're going from "trained civilians" to "threat to the rest of the galaxy" without logical progression.

 

Civilians with military training are dangerous as belligerents in their own country against foreign invading forces, and in a situation like the Vietnam War or the Afghan War they can certainly take a heavy toll on an invading force. But the VC didn't just magically land a legion in Washington to attack the whitehouse.

 

That imperial civilians have arms training means that they can defend themselves, and pose a threat to foreign forces who are present in imperial territories. But they cannot pose a threat to the rest of the galaxy without military infrastructure, national economic infrastructure, and centralized political leadership to coordinate the group. Nationalistic ideology doesn't magically turn into an invasion armada; order and structure are necessary to achieve this. If you can wipe out the infrastructure with overwhelming force with Killbots From The Machine, then the civilian population poses no offensive threat.

 

You're also overlooking the fact that the civilian death toll is going to include a youth demographic. Babies, infants, teens.

 

They elected a Supreme Chancellor who advocates the compete eradication of the Sith Empire.

 

Not sure what your point is here, but this sure does sound familiar.

 

Of all the genocides carried out in human history, the Holocaust is one of the least fitting comparisons. It's not about establishing a master race

 

1 - Again, I don't know a thousand different ways to say "you're looking at subjective justifications, I'm looking at the factual process".

 

The justifications mean nothing because, as you've admitted, Revan's plan is insane. Yes, Revan his reasons for his course of action, and his reasoning is illogical and insane. Likewise Hitler had insane reasons for his course of action. Debating motivational minutiae is not what I'm doing, and I pointed this out ages ago. I'm looking at the nature of one event, compared to the nature of another event, based on the similar moral principles.

 

The holocaust was an act of genocide that turned race into a scapegoat for Germany's economic and political problems, targeting people on genetic traits rather than a person-by-person threat assessment.

 

Revan's genocide would have been an act of genocide that turned race into a scapegoat for both the political conflict between Republic and Empire, and the ideological rift that began in the Jedi Order pre-Hundred Years Darkness, targeting people on genetic traits rather than a person-by-person threat assessment.

 

Everything else is irrelevant to the comparison; the difference between a striped cat and a spotted cat. Fixating on minutiae of Revan's circumstances and his own mad reasoning doesn't change the fact of the process he was about to begin.

 

It's not about eliminating people simply because of a few harmless traits are considered "undesirable".

[/quote

 

It is exactly that. Little Timmy the Dromund Kaas street urchin has to die because Revan, former dark lord of the sith, thinks that Timmy's DNA is UNCLEAN. Or is it that Little Timmy will lead his nationalistic hivemind to conquer both the Republic and the Killbots using dead pigeons he found in the gutter as ballistic projectiles?

 

Fitting that criteria does not automatically make it most tantamount to the one, particularly heinous genocide that everybody actually cares about.

 

The heinousness is determined by the act, not the specifics of the madness that spawned it. Madness is madness. A genocide that is motivated by some warped concept of utilitarian racism isn't somehow less heinous than one that is motivated by a warped concept of racial nationalism.

 

The point is that what Revan would have done would have been similarly heinous to the holocaust. Thus Revan, as a character, would have been in the same moral category as Hitler, and therefore he is at the point where any moral redemption arch for his character is not plausible in the narrative.

 

My point with the comparison has always been Revan's progression beyond the moral event horizon. On another forum, sure I could dig out my uni file and the two of us could argue historical minutiae for another dozen pages. But my argument has a very specific point regarding the story and Revan's role in it, whereas the impression I get from your argument is that you're just trying to be contrary without any specific purpose, as a lot of the things you're saying in response to me don't have any synergy with each other. To avoid reaching a quagmire here were we both just repeat ourselves, I think you need to define your point.

 

Revan and Malak were converts, brought into the Sith by the Sith Empire. Do you really think they would have fallen if the Sith hadn't been waiting to corrupt them?

 

Speculative. As the only character in the franchise that I am familiar with who has fallen to the dark side twice, I'd definitely say that Revan is predisposed to falling. Exar Kun didn't need the empire to fall. And when this current sith-republic war is over, it is just a wink of an eye until more fallen jedi perpetuate the conflict during the new sith wars.

 

Besides, seeing as this whole plot basically turned Revan into the Emperor in miniature, I reckon that Revan's success would have been somewhat counter productive, despite his good intentions and the civilian mass graves.

 

No, getting rid of the SIth Empire wouldn't elimate the Sith idology. It would, however, be reasonable for someone at the time to assume that such would cripple it. Having one upstart Jedi talk to Sith Ghosts and cause a rebellion only to get slapped down every 1000 years sounds a lot better than having about three Sith-related wars in that same time period.

 

Fair enough, crippling the empire would be positive for the Republic. That is obvious to begin with. Doesn't change the facts that 1) killing the overwhelming majority of imperial civilians is not necessary to neutralize the empire as military threat to the Republic, 2) killing the overwhelming majority of imperial civilians is not necessary, not would it be effective, to dismantle the sith order, and 3) killing the overwhelming majority of imperial civilians is not necessary, nor would it be effective, to prevent the Emperor's galactic omnicide.

 

Do you think the people of the Empire are simply playing along to please their masters? No, they want to destroy the Republic as much as the Sith, possibly even more.

 

Another thin speculation that you're tossing out as fact. The imperial citizens have been bred in a culture where they are expected to obey the godlike beings who magically choke or shock them to death if they step a toe out of line; I don't think that its particularly unreasonable that they submit to the status quo when submission is necessary for survival. Nationalistic dogma and propaganda has had an effect on them and convinced a significant portion of them that their masters are in the right, but it implausible to suggest that they are more passionate in their hatred of the Republic than the people running the propaganda machine.

 

Even if, theoretically, the imperial population was 100% zealously committed to everything the sith stand for (which we know is false, because the empire has already suffered defections and civil war based on internal ideological dissonance), it doesn't change the fact that none of the threats that the empire poses (1- threat of the Imperial Military posed to the Republic, 2 - threat of the sith order posed to the jedi order, 3 - threat of the emperor's omnicide posed to the galaxy) requires imperial civilians to be wiped out in order to neutralize those threats, as those threats can be neutralized using the Killbot horde while sparing the civilians.

 

Factoring in the whole galactic omnicide thing, and unhinged as it is, it's still the lesser of two evils.

 

Lesser of two evils works when one evil is necessary to neutralize the other.

 

In this case, it is not necessary to kill civilians to neutralize the political threat, the ideological threat, or the greater threat to galactic life. It isn't the lesser of two evils, it is just one evil adjacent to another evil.

 

And if you still hold that it is absolutely necessary to kill the imperial civilians to dissolve the military threat posed to the galaxy... wiping out entire nations to prevent their nation from ever again waging war on anyone else is absolutely not the lesser evil. If we held to that in real life, Europe would be a continent-spanning mass graveyard rather than a nascent political union. Enemy civilians and their descendants can be allies and countrymen in future generations. Between the possibility of further war, and the Irreversible reality of national genocide... then war is absolutely the lesser evil.

 

They'd still resist, with blasters and the training they themselves received.

 

Feeble resistance that pose no threat to the existence of the Republic.

 

You don't need Sith to hate the Republic after what they did, nor did they need Sith to organize their military into a disciplined fighting force.

 

They do need some form of organization to pose a threat though. In this hypothetical scenario wherein the killbots are murdering every last imperial with a drop of genetic-sith blood, presumably the killbots have already wiped out the military forces of the sith and empire. Nationalism doesn't mean that civilians turn into a rampaging rakghoul locust plague through some invisible group communication. We obviously know from real world history that a militaristic, nationalistic nation can be defeat and disarmed without having to murder its entire populace. Without sith leadership to unite them, without the imperial military hierarchy to organise and regiment them, without the economic resources to finance their efforts, without the infrastructure to turn their goals into reality... how, exactly, would the scattered, defeated, leaderless imperial civilian populations of different worlds that are isolated from one another by the unstoppable Republic-Killbot armada, pose any threat to said unstoppable armada? Ideology is not enough to mount an serious effort at war.

 

The only real threat that the imperial civilians could still pose would be a threat of violent insurgency against occupying Republic forces, much like what we see in Afghanistan. Maybe even some terrorist cells migrating into Republic worlds. But nothing on the scope of posing anything but a feeble threat to the Republic, and certainly nothing significant enough that murdering all the civilians is either necessary or conscionable.

 

What he's doing is more like what the Imperium does regularly in Warhammer 40,000: eliminating very real threats that can and will wipe them out given the chance, which also happen to have a very, very strong correlation to race.

 

The civilians are not a very real threat without the sith or the imperial military to harness them. Ideology doesn't equal threat. That's not how war works.

Both the politics of the Empire and the Emperor's plans are a threat to the Republic. And the loss of the Sith and the Emperor won't change the Empire's fervent anti-Republic sentiment. In fact, it'll probably worsen it. And you don't need some force sensitive overlords to build up a formidable military force.

 

You don't need total genocide to prevent a scattered civilian population from developing infrastructure, military resources, and an industrial economy to use with which to militarize themselves.

 

As I said, disregarding galactic omnicide, they're still a group that hates the Republic and want to destroy them.

 

Which is 1) not the purpose of Revan's planned genocide, therefore meaningless to the question of why he chooses to include civilians in the targeting parameters, and 2) overlooks the fact wherein they cannot pose any such threat of destruction to the republic given the particulars of the scenario in question, wherein the empire has already been militarily overwhelmed.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Sarog

[Temeluchus]

Pardon me but setting the stage could have meant a reasonable number of things. I wasnt aware that The republic or the Jedi comited genocide of imperial populations, nor Master Gnost says that.

 

This explains it also there is no mention of jedi or republic wiping out Civilizations. In fact the Republic were forced to retreat, leaving The sith to destroy themselfs. we know naga sadow, then setled in Yavin, and Vitiate in dromund kass. But jedi and Republic cominting genocide and wiping out a civilization i just dont see it there.

 

I'd suggest watching the holonet timeline entry of the Great Hyperspace War on this site. Master Gnost-Dural breaks down the War and says repeatedly how the Republic's actions in the war led to the war that is fought today. One of the very first things he says in the timeline is how the war today is in many ways an extension of the Great Hyperspace War. One of the last things he says is he can't help but wonder if things would have turned out differently had the Republic handled the end of the War differently.

 

The Sith were crippled militarly and defeated but Supreme Chancellor Pultimo ordered an invasion of the Sith planets and the Republic began a campaign in the ancient tradition of burning the cities,salting the fields, wiping out the populations etc. This led to the Emperor and a small band of Sith fleeing and venturing out into the Unknown Regions. Fast forward 13 centuries and oops, the Sith are back, they have an Empire and big military again and they seem to be a bit irked.

 

It maybe hard to believe but the Republic isn't always the shining pillar of good and sometimes they handle things incorrectly. If you can't see the Republic engaging in the targeting of populations, burning cities, etc get your hands on Tales of the Jedi or as I said watch the holonet entry, there is a very clear picture of Republic fighters firing on hundreds of fleeing people as Gnost-Dural explains the Republic's actions at the end of the War.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Clonedzero]

Revan isn't dead. He disappeared and where he ended up will likely be part of a larger story arc and future expansion.

 

absolutely. he basically smoke bombs away, but you know, with lightning cus thats story his thing.

i mean writing 101, if they aren't shown as dead, then they aren't.

 

what's he do? he curses you for foiling his plan then disappears in a cloud of force lightning. he's obviously not dead.

[Spartanik]

I'd suggest watching the holonet timeline entry of the Great Hyperspace War on this site. Master Gnost-Dural breaks down the War and says repeatedly how the Republic's actions in the war led to the war that is fought today. One of the very first things he says in the timeline is how the war today is in many ways an extension of the Great Hyperspace War. One of the last things he says is he can't help but wonder if things would have turned out differently had the Republic handled the end of the War differently.

 

The Sith were crippled militarly and defeated but Supreme Chancellor Pultimo ordered an invasion of the Sith planets and the Republic began a campaign in the ancient tradition of burning the cities,salting the fields, wiping out the populations etc. This led to the Emperor and a small band of Sith fleeing and venturing out into the Unknown Regions. Fast forward 13 centuries and oops, the Sith are back, they have an Empire and big military again and they seem to be a bit irked.

 

It maybe hard to believe but the Republic isn't always the shining pillar of good and sometimes they handle things incorrectly. If you can't see the Republic engaging in the targeting of populations, burning cities, etc get your hands on Tales of the Jedi or as I said watch the holonet entry, there is a very clear picture of Republic fighters firing on hundreds of fleeing people as Gnost-Dural explains the Republic's actions at the end of the War.

 

Yes im aware of that, off course this war is an extension of the great hyperspace war. And even empress teta empire was a warlike one for instance, but mostly it forced the sith to exile, so that they one day would come back.

MY point is there were no genocide or civilization extintion. The republic launch an atack on Sith worlds, yet they are forced to retreat and leave the sith to their fate, since the Sith were caring suicide atacks. What master Gnost says, its The sith fate is no doubt tied with the republic actions in the end of the war. yet you cant deny that the most damage made to the sith empire was the damage inflicted upon. The republic didnt destroy the sith ultimatly, the Sith destroy thenselfs. If the republic handled the end of the war diferently could the Sith save thenselfs? given the self destructive nature of the way of the sith in times like these, i would say no... hell they were even comiting suicide instead of surrendering.

[Temeluchus]

Yes im aware of that, off course this war is an extension of the great hyperspace war. And even empress teta empire was a warlike one for instance, but mostly it forced the sith to exile, so that they one day would come back.

MY point is there were no genocide or civilization extintion. The republic launch an atack on Sith worlds, yet they are forced to retreat and leave the sith to their fate, since the Sith were caring suicide atacks. What master Gnost says, its The sith fate is no doubt tied with the republic actions in the end of the war. yet you cant deny that the most damage made to the sith empire was the damage inflicted upon. The republic didnt destroy the sith ultimatly, the Sith destroy thenselfs. If the republic handled the end of the war diferently could the Sith save thenselfs? given the self destructive nature of the way of the sith in times like these, i would say no... hell they were even comiting suicide instead of surrendering.

 

So bombing planets full of civilians to blow up a Sith Temple or palace wouldn't result in civilian casualties? Having fighters fire directly into a crowd of hundreds/thousands of fleeing civilians isn't committing genocide or at the very least war crimes?

 

It wasn't as simple as the Republic is ordered to invade Sith space, then immediately the Sith began launching full scale suicide attacks and the Republic was forced to withdrawal. The Republic and Jedi landed on planets, destroying Sith temples,holocrons,palaces, indiscriminately bombing and firing on civilian populations. Once again, watch the Holonet entry and watch the Republic fighters firing into a a fleeing crowd of civilians for an illustration of this.

 

Am I saying that if the Republic had simply invaded and occupied the Sith territories, making sure they didn't build any military or armaments, that the Sith would have quietly gone away in peace? No, this is the SWU after all and the Sith would have eventually come back as they always do.

 

But I am saying that perhaps Vitiate wouldn't be heading up this incarnation of the Sith, or the Sith military wouldn't be so advanced, or another random example, but I can be sure you wouldn't have a current Imperial population so committed to destroying the Republic had they not suffered at the hands of the Republic so many years prior.

 

There are perfect real life mirror situations to this, that I wish I could use to clarify the point, but it's against the rules so I won't, but trust me when I say that behavior or actions of a people/nation/military that happened 200,500,1000,1500 years ago means little to affected people when they are slow to forgive or forget and they would leap at the chance for revenge when it is offered.

[Stormessence]

So what the writing of this Flashpoint was heavily reliant on the faction (Republic vs Empire) gameplay mechanic? Is there any revelation as to why He's choosing to use Droids? Is it out of fear that if he could be used and influenced by the Emperor, that other can be as well? Is there any explanation as to why scourge didn't at least attempt to communicate with Revan about his vision of the Jedi?

 

[ OT: Why aren't more people Comparing The Empire and Revan's behavior to things like the Romans, etc. Has every one Forgot about Julius Caesar and Gaul, etc.? As opposed to just Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party. Rome was a major influence on Hitler after all. ]

[Temeluchus]

So what the writing of this Flashpoint was heavily reliant on the faction (Republic vs Empire) gameplay mechanic? Is there any revelation as to why He's choosing to use Droids? Is it out of fear that if he could be used and influenced by the Emperor, that other can be as well? Is there any explanation as to why scourge didn't at least attempt to communicate with Revan about his vision of the Jedi?

 

[ OT: Why aren't more people Comparing The Empire and Revan's behavior to things like the Romans, etc. Has every one Forgot about Julius Caesar and Gaul, etc.? As opposed to just Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party. Rome was a major influence on Hitler after all. ]

 

Because technically, it's against the forum rules and most of us don't feel like getting our hands slapped by the mods if they ever stumble into this thread. Accumulation of hand slaps results in a forced vacation from the forums/TOR, so why bother?

Edited May 1, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Stormessence]

As in relation to the Comparisons? If so Thanks for the heads up.

[nepatsfa]

didn't he die in the SW class story line for Dromund Kaas ?

[Sporadicus]

I think bioware sort of backed themselves in to a tight corner, they had to have raven in the game as he is the reason for TOR and natural as he was used to promote the game as much as they could, he had to be in it from the start.

No one can argue that he is the character that began KOTOR so he needs some conclusion, and to put him into a flashpoint or anyway where you can kill him was always going to fail as he is such a big character in TOR timeline he would have to go out in a epic way. not just a random lv 35 flashpoint ( the level does matter considering how powerful you are later on... but would more acceptable but still fail)

 

I personally didn't like how in all of kotor 2 all they could come up with was that he was in prison for a few years.... quite a lazy plot considering how a massive character he is.

regardless what can they do now? they know they can't have you kill him as he is too big a character

(they also made the same mistake with malgas.. he is not as big obviously but the poster Darth for the game, to have killed him off in a flashpoint certainly was not the right thing to do)

 

 

so what do you guys think they could do to make him die in a big enough way that would be acceptble (yes become on with the force but how..) take out the true emperor??? he tried and failed but could have a great hand in it, I just can't think of anything that bioware can do to not shot themselves in the foot :>

[Varium]

If it bothers that they were lvl 35 you can always think that they were lvl 50 on full rakata doing HM if it helps.