Marauders? What about Pyrotechs? (honest question regarding damage numbers)

[Kahn_Frost]

Hi there. Let me preface this by saying I play on average 15 Warzones per day during peak hours, more during weekends, so my observations in this post are based on my personal experience from my server's warzones (Dark Reaper). I also have a lv50 Assault Vanguard, Watchman Sentinel, Seer Sage all of whom (pre-1.2) are geared in mix-mash ranging from full Champ, to partial Cent-Champ, or Champ-BM. So I do speak from a pretty neutral point of view as I've experienced all the class archetypes.

 

Now I am seeing posts everywhere all over various forums talking about how OP Sentinels and Darkness (tank) Assassins are, so much that Sentinels are 3-shotting people (yeah right... lol). While I am not refuting that Sentinels and Assassins are performing very well atm, I am extremely surprised at the conspicuous lack of 'whine' posts regarding Pyro Powertechs (and its mirror class).

 

I play a fair amount of Warzones on a daily basis, and in every match that has a Pyrotech/Assaultguard present they are almost always topping damage meters by a fair margin (the difference is magnified in Voidstar). I have made a point to note who else were also present in the warzones, and my observations were that even with some of the best geared Marauders/Sents on my server present, Pyrotechs still dominate the damage done. If you play on Dark Reaper, you know what I am talking about if you've seen Vanni, Vaux or Illfoxyl and some other Pyros tearing people up doing up to 600-800k+ damage in Voidstars for example.

 

So I am curious, is it because Pyros/Vanguards are much less played than Marauders/Assassins that people just get owned less by them so they turn their attention to the classes that has more players? Because I can safely say that Pyros are in no way inferior to Marauders in terms of damage, I know this for a fact too since that is what I am playing as well.

 

If Marauders were 4/5 for damage, then Pyros would be 5/5 for me, while Tank Assassins would be 3.5/5 if they wear dps gear. This is balanced by defense, where Marauders have 4/5 again due to excellent defensive cooldowns, while Pyros have just heavy armor and a -25% to all damage putting them at 3/5 (the option to safely damage from range to avoid getting focused in a skirmish is a huge plus too), while Tank Assassins at 4.5/5 even while wearing dps gear.

 

Does anyone else share my observations or is my server an anomaly where Pyros are dominating damage done killing people in 1v1 in under 10 secs? (2 railshots for ~5-9k damage, 1 thermal detonator, 2-3 fire bursts, 1 IM = ~10secs). Annihilation Marauders are annoying as **** with their cooldowns, but at least they take time to do their damage and you have that possibility of outplaying them if you time your stuns/cooldowns right. But with Pyro Railshot burst it's just, 'oh hey I'm at 50% already from the initial salvo, 6secs later I am dead once Railshot goes off cooldown'.

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 18, 2012 by Kahn_Frost

[lxyao]

Because unlike marauders who are waving their light sticks in your face, rail shots can't be seen causing people to think that they died due to lag or from some other source,... like the marauder in their face.

[SableShadow]

Because unlike marauders who are waving their light sticks in your face, rail shots can't be seen causing people to think that they died due to lag or from some other source,... like the marauder in their face.

 

For me, being on fire is a subtle clue. Just sayin'.

[Khoraji]

Probably just because there are no where close to as many PT's as there are mara's

[Cruxe]

Scoreboard damage done is not an accurate measure of the usefulness of a class.

 

Pyro rotation does AoE damage, Marauder rotation (unless Rage specced), does not. That's why you see Pyros doing more damage at the end of a match.

[Scoobings]

Probably just because there are no where close to as many PT's as there are mara's

 

I think it's probably a combination of a few things:

 

- That damage in voidstar is due to stellar AOE that pyrotechs have, while maurader damage is all single target

- Mauraders have higher survivability

- There are far fewer PTs

 

I think mostly it's the last one. If there were more powertechs I think we'd see more threads complaining about them. Especially because railshot does hit like a friggin truck if specced full Pyro.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Scoobings

[TheNegotiator]

Well I can tell you that no Vanguard can come close in damage to a PT. Mirror class ha ha that's a laugh. If I see a PT I basically run away and hope I don't burn to death before I find a healing pack.

[ehtom]

I agree. People have gone overboard with complaining about mara/sent's when really there is just far too much pvp damage in general.

[Kahn_Frost]

Well, the Voidstar example might be a bit misleading. I am talking about any Warzone where Pyros are present along with the other talked about classes, it doesn't matter where but on my server Dark Reaper, Pyros absolutely dominate Marauders/Assassins.

 

It is also not all AOE damage. Sure there is damage padding going on for zones like Voidstar and Novare coast, but if you fought a PT 1v1 you'd know exactly how hard they hit.

[Crumpilumpigus]

You guys sure you aren't getting hit by a pyrotech mercenary?

[SableShadow]

if you fought a PT 1v1 you'd know exactly how hard they hit.

 

Yep. Seems like the only counter is a pure dps race with the bunny hoppin' bastages.

[LoL-K-Noob]

I remember pre-nerf in full BM on my Sage I was hit for 4k on what looked like a "explode after x seconds" skill then got rail shotted for 5k. With the damage buff with 1.2 its probably higher. Now pre-nerf pyrotechs were close if not on the same level as maruader, but now they cant spam that rail shot constantly.

[TheNegotiator]

You guys sure you aren't getting hit by a pyrotech mercenary?

 

Nah 99% of mercs are tracer spammers.

[Kahn_Frost]

Well, Pyro Mercs I've found to be performing much better after 1.2. This is because the spurts where they have to stand still to cast Charged bolts/Unload to proc Railshot is significantly reduced due to higher proc rate, so they are able to kite better. However, they are no where near the level of the Pyrotech.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Marauders, Tankassins and Pyros are all over the top at the moment, I just don't get why no one has mentioned Pyros yet.

[vibenode]

Pyro is probably one of the most damaging specs in the game. What they lack compared to Mara/Sent is the survivability. They have next to none compared to the many powerful defensive CD's that the warriors have. 1v1 as a high level Pyro player I have no chance against a good mara with their CD's up. This is why you see more Mara as they are better at smaller fights, of which there are many in WZ's. Van / PT Pyro is now VERY team dependant, they NEED the guard and heals to be viable now with the huge drop in TTK.

[FoE_Jarcus]

Shhh how about them marauders, sure are op..

 

Why isn't rail shot a tech attack? Discuss ( it's weapon dmg ) and they appear bursty due to the delay in thermal det. A good pyro will time a rs / rp / rs and thermal will time with that second rs.

[Kahn_Frost]

No I agree with you that Maras and Assassins have crazy good defensive cooldowns. But my point was that Pyros bypass that shortcoming completely with how ridiculously fast they drop someone before defensive cooldowns are actually needed, if that makes sense.

 

On my Vanguard, I do about 10-12k damage inside the first 8secs (Assault Plastique > Incendiary Round > HIB > Stockstrike > HIB) and this is only in Champ/Recruit gear. On my Watchman Sentinel, I am still only just done loading both dots and landing 1 Merciless Slash for about 6-7k damage total during the first 8secs. If I do not blow my cooldowns against a Pyro inside the next 6secs when Railshot procs again I am toast because at this point I am already low from the initial salvo. Now imagine if my Vanguard was fighting against some other classes without Mara cooldowns, they'd have no answer short of stuns/vanish/sprint away.

 

Hope that better illustrates the flow of combat for both classes.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Kahn_Frost

[iDubstep]

Wait, there is a class that can compete with Marauders but it already has a very small population.

 

Let's nerf them so even less people will play a class without much representation.

 

Actually, let's just take out every class in this game that doesn't use a lightsaber.

[Faat]

I think it's probably a combination of a few things:

 

- That damage in voidstar is due to stellar AOE that pyrotechs have, while maurader damage is all single target

- Mauraders have higher survivability

- There are far fewer PTs

 

I think mostly it's the last one. If there were more powertechs I think we'd see more threads complaining about them. Especially because railshot does hit like a friggin truck if specced full Pyro.

 

Well, I agree with you, but there's less or no whine because, mostly, assault vanguards pyro powertechs are relatively easy to kill. Spot them and focus them right away, they won't top damage. If you try that against sent / mara, they can use a lot more defensive cooldowns and are way harder to finish off if they're being healed, they can pop their 99% damage mitigation CD and get healed to 100%. That's why this CD is so good.

 

I think assault VG and pyro PT are more or less balanced as glass canons, high DPS but weak surivability.

[Pekish]

and you know why they lack survavibility because this game is not 1VS1 arena

 

and he can shoot FROM DISTANCE

 

one thing is staying near the heat of the fight were EVERY SINGLE AOE IS DIRECTED TO and fight right there (marauder) the other is STAYING OUT OF SIGHT IF POSSIBLE AND PEW PEW

 

people still dont get that this is not a 1vs1 game and that marauder/sentinel win 1vs1 as a healer can outheal many class damange in 1vs1 because healer are focuse fired and marauder "usually" (when they dont go around 1vs1) should stay in the front line under INTENSE AOE...

 

do you know why Marauder has a 30% protection from AOE in combat tree? because his natural position is there where AOE happen.... of course let's remove the protection from marauder so he is allright in 1vs1 (that is so freaking important for the forum) and let make him waste a space in the team vs a team that actually know how to play and use AOE damage.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Pekish

[Bishidoblade]

Pyro is probably one of the most damaging specs in the game. What they lack compared to Mara/Sent is the survivability. They have next to none compared to the many powerful defensive CD's that the warriors have. 1v1 as a high level Pyro player I have no chance against a good mara with their CD's up. This is why you see more Mara as they are better at smaller fights, of which there are many in WZ's. Van / PT Pyro is now VERY team dependant, they NEED the guard and heals to be viable now with the huge drop in TTK.

 

Its refreshing to read a post by someone who understands the situation, thank you!

[Scoobings]

and you know why they lack survavibility because this game is not 1VS1 arena

 

and he can shoot FROM DISTANCE

 

one thing is staying near the heat of the fight were EVERY SINGLE AOE IS DIRECTED TO and fight right there (marauder) the other is STAYING OUT OF SIGHT IF POSSIBLE AND PEW PEW

 

 

You don't know what you're talking about. PTs are a skirmishing melee class. We have ranged moves yes, but if we aren't at least in flame burst/rocket punch range we can only maintain like half our dps rotation. We aren't a "ranged" class.

 

It would be like saying maurader is a ranged class because you have saber throw and roar.

[Imaren]

and you know why they lack survavibility because this game is not 1VS1 arena

 

and he can shoot FROM DISTANCE

 

one thing is staying near the heat of the fight were EVERY SINGLE AOE IS DIRECTED TO and fight right there (marauder) the other is STAYING OUT OF SIGHT IF POSSIBLE AND PEW PEW

 

people still dont get that this is not a 1vs1 game and that marauder/sentinel win 1vs1 as a healer can outheal many class damange in 1vs1 because healer are focuse fired and marauder "usually" (when they dont go around 1vs1) should stay in the front line under INTENSE AOE...

 

do you know why Marauder has a 30% protection from AOE in combat tree? because his natural position is there where AOE happen.... of course let's remove the protection from marauder so he is allright in 1vs1 (that is so freaking important for the forum) and let make him waste a space in the team vs a team that actually know how to play and use AOE damage.

 

You obviously know nothing about Pyros as their ideal range is 10m which, coincidentally, is just close enough to take a lightsaber to the face.

[SneiK]

I guess there would be more complaining about Pyro if there were more of 'em.

 

But it wouldn't last for long as there are a difference between mara dmg and pyro dmg.

 

Pyros are one of the squishiest class in the game, don't let the heavy armor fool you. You can counter pyros by just killing them, but you can't counter maras like that. CCs are long CD so I wouldn't call it an efficient countering.

Edited April 18, 2012 by SneiK

[Astarica]

Powerful classes tend to cancel each other out. Tankasin and Marauder are probably the top 2 DPS classes in the game right now, and they spend most of their time fighting each other. If you let a PT get the jump on you because you were fighting someone else, you might lose to the PT. But if you let a Tankasin or Marauder get the jump on you, you will DEFINITELY lose even if you're one of those two classes. It's pretty clear there's no shortage of either classes in WZ, and sure a lot of those guys are just FOTM players who are no threat, but it's not like you can tell this unless you memorzied the performance of every opponent you go against. So usually a class with good DPS but low survivality like Sniper/PT puts up impressive numbers because you really have no idea which of the 4 Marauders you faced is actually good and you can't take the chance that you ignored the 1 Marauder who was actually good.

 

When PTs do get singled out they get shut down rather easily, but due to the abundance of Tankasins/Marauders, it's rare for a PT to get singled out.