Scoundrel DPS Help for Raiding

[Sainteagle]

Hey all,

 

 

Trying to help a fellow guildie on her dps output during raids, as it seems a bit low. Shes a good player but, we have people in guild who dont want to bring her saying scoundrel dps is not good enough. I believe this to be false, and would really like to help out. I have a 47 sawbones scoundrel and done some scrapping myself, but i never tried dirty fighting. Any suggestions or tips on what her build should be, and how she can do max damage for bosses?

[cuteypie]

Hey all,

 

 

Trying to help a fellow guildie on her dps output during raids, as it seems a bit low. Shes a good player but, we have people in guild who dont want to bring her saying scoundrel dps is not good enough. I believe this to be false, and would really like to help out. I have a 47 sawbones scoundrel and done some scrapping myself, but i never tried dirty fighting. Any suggestions or tips on what her build should be, and how she can do max damage for bosses?

 

Define low. A scoundrel dps will pull around 1k dps take or give a few in full rakata with custom mods etc. on real encounters (no dummy tests)

 

Our 8man run combat sent+scrapper scoundrel on toth and 2x commando on zhorn in HM DC and dps is even through the entire fight. This is a fight which majorly favors ranged dps aswell so unless the combat sentinel which is considered one of the lower sustained dps speccs of sent is carrying the scrapper most classes are actually quite balanced atm.

[Sainteagle]

Not quite sure exactly havent watched her number - but from what i hear its 'sluggish' i guess you can say.

Big question is - is it better to raid as scrapper or dirty fighting?

[Sainteagle]

bump. cause i really need some help to solve this issue for our guildie

[Scorchy]

Don't bring her. Sorry.

[Marshall_Law]

Don't bring her. Sorry.

 

I'm sorry but this person either doesn't know what they're talking about, or are just doing a terrible job trolling.

 

I'm a dps scrapper who frequently runs HM Ops and have NEVER had any issues or complaints from my guild about my dps output.

 

I've never tried dirty fighting, so I can just vouch for Scrapper. Hope that eases some of your friend's concern.

[Scorchy]

I'm sorry but this person either doesn't know what they're talking about, or are just doing a terrible job trolling.

 

I'm a dps scrapper who frequently runs HM Ops and have NEVER had any issues or complaints from my guild about my dps output.

 

Then your guild isn't paying attention to the numbers because you're being carried hard.

 

Try looking at the actual numbers people are reporting: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=414012. Scrappers are filling the same role as Sentinels and yet doing 15%-35% less DPS, while providing less buff/debuff utility, and still sucking up heals because of being in melee range. This was the case before 1.2, and the patch changes just exacerbated the problem even further and shows they don't have a clue how to deal with this class.

[Spezamaho]

First off whats her rotation? at this point int he game restealthing to shoot first really doesnt add too much dps to your rotation. back blast is doing comparable damage and at a fraction of the cost. not to mention it force resets the meters.(stupid not sure why it happens: Mox Parsers if you see this fix it please)

 

3/31/7 is the spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#7010cZGGrodzRdGoZhMb.1

i put points into survivor scars because there is nothing better to get. stopping power and k.o. are useless in this realm

 

flechette round>shoot first>back blast>vital shot>blaster whip>sucker punch>flurry of bolts-- this is your standard scrapper rotation it doesnt include pugnacity because that is not a damage dealing attack but that should be up at all times. 1 stack of upper hand and pugnacity at all times.

 

My theory about the increased cooldown on backblast leaves too much downtime inbetween attacks thus lowering dps to a certain degree. from what i have seen and tested introducing quick shot into your rotation will increase dps as long as you can maintain energy.

 

New rotation flechette round>shoot first>vital shot>back blast>blaster whip>sucker punch>quick shot> flurry of bolts.

 

you still stick to the same guidelines as before energy stays above 60 for full regen rate. when it drops below flurry of bolts. keep 1 stack upper hand and pugnacity rolling at all times. a majority of your damage is coming from the dots from flechette round and the dot from vital shot keeping both of them up should be a priority hence the switch in the first rotation compared to this one. in addition by the time back blast comes off cooldown you could prob blaster whip and reapply vital shot. adding quick shot really can drain your energy, you should only be using it after you have exhausted your sucker punch. aside from that flurry of bolts is doing alot of damage for me, make sure you are spamming that when everything is on cooldown if you arent going to add any additional abilities to your rotation.

 

anyway with most of the boss encounters out there you stealthing up and getting a shoot first off are too few and far between. im not the best but certainly know how to roll and i get knocked out by aoe on most enocunters in EC.

 

TLDR

make sure your rotation is on point, use quick shot to fill the gaps due to elongated cooldowns on back blast. keep vital shot and flechette round dots up at all times (flechette also does 30% armor pen works on suckerpunch and other abilities just dont waste too much energy applying it) pwn the kids.

[Sainteagle]

First off whats her rotation? at this point int he game restealthing to shoot first really doesnt add too much dps to your rotation. back blast is doing comparable damage and at a fraction of the cost. not to mention it force resets the meters.(stupid not sure why it happens: Mox Parsers if you see this fix it please)

 

3/31/7 is the spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#7010cZGGrodzRdGoZhMb.1

i put points into survivor scars because there is nothing better to get. stopping power and k.o. are useless in this realm

 

flechette round>shoot first>back blast>vital shot>blaster whip>sucker punch>flurry of bolts-- this is your standard scrapper rotation it doesnt include pugnacity because that is not a damage dealing attack but that should be up at all times. 1 stack of upper hand and pugnacity at all times.

 

 

 

exactly what i needed to hear. but i always wondered if dirty fighting was good because of the DoTing and she can stay ranged. I finally got my scoundrel to 50 but hes sawbones - so i know im going to be healing her, but I wanna try and find some sort of guidelines for her to use. which again this is perfect, but what about dirty fighting?

 

My theory about the increased cooldown on backblast leaves too much downtime inbetween attacks thus lowering dps to a certain degree. from what i have seen and tested introducing quick shot into your rotation will increase dps as long as you can maintain energy.

 

New rotation flechette round>shoot first>vital shot>back blast>blaster whip>sucker punch>quick shot> flurry of bolts.

 

you still stick to the same guidelines as before energy stays above 60 for full regen rate. when it drops below flurry of bolts. keep 1 stack upper hand and pugnacity rolling at all times. a majority of your damage is coming from the dots from flechette round and the dot from vital shot keeping both of them up should be a priority hence the switch in the first rotation compared to this one. in addition by the time back blast comes off cooldown you could prob blaster whip and reapply vital shot. adding quick shot really can drain your energy, you should only be using it after you have exhausted your sucker punch. aside from that flurry of bolts is doing alot of damage for me, make sure you are spamming that when everything is on cooldown if you arent going to add any additional abilities to your rotation.

 

anyway with most of the boss encounters out there you stealthing up and getting a shoot first off are too few and far between. im not the best but certainly know how to roll and i get knocked out by aoe on most enocunters in EC.

 

TLDR

make sure your rotation is on point, use quick shot to fill the gaps due to elongated cooldowns on back blast. keep vital shot and flechette round dots up at all times (flechette also does 30% armor pen works on suckerpunch and other abilities just dont waste too much energy applying it) pwn the kids.

 

 

 

this is perfect, thank you. but what about using dirty fighting for raiding - is that effective? i thought it might be a little because of the DoTing and she can stay further away so healers dont have to worry so much. is DF any good for raids? if so - how?

[Aetou]

this is perfect, thank you. but what about using dirty fighting for raiding - is that effective? i thought it might be a little because of the DoTing and she can stay further away so healers dont have to worry so much. is DF any good for raids? if so - how?

 

If Dirty Fighting was designed properly this would work. Unfortunately, the rotations of DFers in Operations should still include both Blaster Whip and Back Blast on Cooldown. That means that you are almost as vulnerable to damage as Scrappers but without the self-healing which, on balance, makes you actually slightly squishier in my opinion.

 

With regards to Sentinel+Scrapper being balanced against two Commandos in the damage they put out - that is probably true. The Sentinel is about as much above average as the Scrapper is below average, while Commandos are around average. The issue is that the Sentinels also bring their group buffs which means they are contributing even more to the group. Honestly, if I had a choice I'd take a Sentinel over a Scrapper every single time.

 

I used to play a DPS Scoundrel in Operations and I definitely always felt like I was being carried a bit. Eventually I swapped to Healing and now I shine.

 

My advice would be to get your friend to stand in front of a training dummy and practice until she can maximise her damage over a prolonged period and hit scores that compare to the rest of the group. If a Scrapper can do damage high enough for NiM then I'll be very impressed, most Scrappers wouldn't be able to and will take way more damage than any other DPS class to boot. It sucks but we just lack the sustained DPS compared to other classes and this is only magnified when moving into actual Operations instead of just hitting a dummy with no downtime.

[Stenrik]

I find myself in this thread because I just respecced scrapper dps to help fill a space for my guild. It was just normal mode 8-man KP and EV. I used MOX desktop parser with the guild, and was pretty embarrassed to see how low my DPS was! In most fights, I wasn't doing much more than the shield vanguard tank was. That's right, full def-specced tank. The top couple dps were doing as much as TWICE my dps in some fights, though usually more like 1/3 more. Sometimes I was closer, like in the quicker fights and when it came to AOE (Flyby ftw), but for the most part, my numbers sucked. (I mean what's the point of taking a scoundrel on an ops if you can take another TANK and get almost as much dmg and put a lot less stress on healers?)

 

On top of the meters, I was also the last player working on the personal elite during EV. I do attribute part of this to the fact that he couldn't be CC'd, so I was unable to get behind him to use back blast. But still, it was pretty embarassing.

 

Keeping this in mind:

--I was in full healing gear. Mostly columi and a couple BM pieces. This meant I had a lot of alacrity and almost no accuracy.

--The vanguard tank was more geared than I was. The DPS who topped me were more geared than me (Rakata). They were a guardian and a shadow.

--Not everyone was using the MOX parser. I was effectively comparing myself to 2 dps + the tank. For all I know, some people in the group were actually doing LESS than me. However, since I was the last to finish my personal elite in EV, I doubt it.

 

However, even with these disclaimers, something's not adding up. I must be doing something wrong, right?

 

So I looked up my rotation. Apparently I was "doing it right." With the exception of not using Vital Shot quite enough in longer fights, my rotation was what was recommended. Shoot first (if possible, usually I didn't get a chance cuz people were ahead of me and I also kept getting popped outta stealth), back blast, blaster whip, pugnacity, vital shot (unless mob is falling fast), filler like quick shot or blaster fire until blaster whip comes up, blaster whip, sucker punch, back blast, repeat...

 

I found post-1.2 to be very awkward. All the downtime after backblast means I have a couple seconds to burn. That said, I did feel like the energy management was easier. Only one time did I feel the need to use cool head, and I often didn't even need to use pugnacity. I don't think the tradeoff is worth it though.

 

I have not purchased a raid dummy yet, but I will soon. In the meantime, can anyone give me some insight as to why the others did so much more dps than me? Does class/gear really make so much of a difference that I'd do 1/2-2/3 the damage of the other dps?

 

Thanks.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Stenrik

[mamosh]

sadly to say scoudrel dps is to bad for pve why i rerolled soon as i hit 50 to sniper but if she wants to stick with scoundrel sawbone as healer is awesome and the shared tree dirty fighting defenetly increases the dmg done due to the dots and medium range she wont lose so much dmg done when on the run

[Aetou]

I

I have not purchased a raid dummy yet, but I will soon. In the meantime, can anyone give me some insight as to why the others did so much more dps than me? Does class/dps really make so much of a difference that I'd do 1/2-2/3 the damage of the other dps?

Thanks.

 

Based on everything you said I'd split the blame roughly equally between the fact you just swapped to the AC, that you were in Medic gear and that you were playing a Scrapper. If you solve the first two issues I'd expect you to be perhaps 15-20% off the pace. The Infernal Council is a really unfair comparison tool for Scoundrels, though. Without Back Blast our DPS does fall through the floor. As a Sawbones my rotation for the Infernal Council now is basically Whip=Flurry-Quick Shot-EMP with Vital Shot and SRMP constantly kept up and using Sabotage charge on CD. The last two EV HMs I actually finished first doing that, but obviously as a Scrapper you have a lot more HP to deal with.

[Spezamaho]

the council fight in EV is a joke. scrappers get boned hard, back blast which constitues a large portion of your damage and flechette round which does even more cannot be use aside from the opener.

 

Dirty fighting isnt worth the time or energy to learn. i thought the dots and everything would add up to more sustained damage but the reality is they are just swapping one dot for another. you still keep vital shot up, sharp bomb and wounding shots but you dont get the 30% armor pen.

 

as scrapper dps after 1.2 i was still hitting hard.

still getting crits on almost all my abilites for 3.5k and up

long story short ranged classes are doing the damn thing right now. sentinels are doing well cause their dots hit really hard. scrappers got a longer cds =(

[Talon_Kaarde]

First off whats her rotation? at this point int he game restealthing to shoot first really doesnt add too much dps to your rotation. back blast is doing comparable damage and at a fraction of the cost. not to mention it force resets the meters.(stupid not sure why it happens: Mox Parsers if you see this fix it please)

 

3/31/7 is the spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#7010cZGGrodzRdGoZhMb.1

i put points into survivor scars because there is nothing better to get. stopping power and k.o. are useless in this realm

 

flechette round>shoot first>back blast>vital shot>blaster whip>sucker punch>flurry of bolts-- this is your standard scrapper rotation it doesnt include pugnacity because that is not a damage dealing attack but that should be up at all times. 1 stack of upper hand and pugnacity at all times.

 

My theory about the increased cooldown on backblast leaves too much downtime inbetween attacks thus lowering dps to a certain degree. from what i have seen and tested introducing quick shot into your rotation will increase dps as long as you can maintain energy.

 

New rotation flechette round>shoot first>vital shot>back blast>blaster whip>sucker punch>quick shot> flurry of bolts.

 

you still stick to the same guidelines as before energy stays above 60 for full regen rate. when it drops below flurry of bolts. keep 1 stack upper hand and pugnacity rolling at all times. a majority of your damage is coming from the dots from flechette round and the dot from vital shot keeping both of them up should be a priority hence the switch in the first rotation compared to this one. in addition by the time back blast comes off cooldown you could prob blaster whip and reapply vital shot. adding quick shot really can drain your energy, you should only be using it after you have exhausted your sucker punch. aside from that flurry of bolts is doing alot of damage for me, make sure you are spamming that when everything is on cooldown if you arent going to add any additional abilities to your rotation.

 

anyway with most of the boss encounters out there you stealthing up and getting a shoot first off are too few and far between. im not the best but certainly know how to roll and i get knocked out by aoe on most enocunters in EC.

 

TLDR

make sure your rotation is on point, use quick shot to fill the gaps due to elongated cooldowns on back blast. keep vital shot and flechette round dots up at all times (flechette also does 30% armor pen works on suckerpunch and other abilities just dont waste too much energy applying it) pwn the kids.

 

Ok I decided to try your new rotation:

New rotation flechette round>shoot first>vital shot>back blast>blaster whip>sucker punch>quick shot> flurry of bolts

 

And when I can get everything to land I am getting around 1200dps with a max one time of 1948dps, but overally average 1000-1200.

 

The issue I have is that your step 4 isn't working 95% of the time. Let me explain.

 

I stealth

I load up the flechette round

I shoot first

At this point I'm now out of stealth and the target has spun to face me.

I vital shot

 

Now here's the problem, how do I backblast? I've drawn aggro, the target is facing me, no matter what I do, I can't get bhind the target to backblast.

 

At this point do I skip backblast and go on with the rotation, or throw in a dirty kick, then backblast and continue the rotation?

 

Like I said, 95% of the time I can't get backblast off. Now, IF and only IF you spec the ability to knock down on shoot first then you could get another shot off because your target would be on the ground, but I spec'd the 3/31/7 tree as described above and that specifically lacks the knock down ability of shoot first.

 

Any assistance in getting this to work better/smoother greatly appreciated!

[ViseOwn]

Add in a surrender after any time you use a particularly damaging attack.

[Spezamaho]

"Ok I decided to try your new rotation:

New rotation flechette round>shoot first>vital shot>back blast>blaster whip>sucker punch>quick shot> flurry of bolts

 

And when I can get everything to land I am getting around 1200dps with a max one time of 1948dps, but overally average 1000-1200.

 

The issue I have is that your step 4 isn't working 95% of the time. Let me explain.

 

I stealth

I load up the flechette round

I shoot first

At this point I'm now out of stealth and the target has spun to face me.

I vital shot

 

Now here's the problem, how do I backblast? I've drawn aggro, the target is facing me, no matter what I do, I can't get bhind the target to backblast.

 

At this point do I skip backblast and go on with the rotation, or throw in a dirty kick, then backblast and continue the rotation?

 

Like I said, 95% of the time I can't get backblast off. Now, IF and only IF you spec the ability to knock down on shoot first then you could get another shot off because your target would be on the ground, but I spec'd the 3/31/7 tree as described above and that specifically lacks the knock down ability of shoot first.

 

Any assistance in getting this to work better/smoother greatly appreciated!"

 

i just hand quoted you cause i didnt want to get my huge post with it.

 

first off questing and raiding are two very different things. if you are opening and pulling threat off the tank there is a much bigger problem... aka the tank is having a threat issue. (like almost every tank i play with running hm's)

 

scenario rolls down like this.

stealth>flechette round>shoot first>vital shot>back blast>blaster whip>sucker punchx2-3*>pull threat off tank.

 

to combat the insane threat gen from this class in pve use surrender right after back blast

stealth>flechette round>shoot first>vital shot>back blast>SURRENDER>blaster whip>sucker punchx2-3*

 

i would always use surrender right after back blast pre 1.2 cause if not i would most likely get threat after i started to sucker punch.

 

killing mobs on your own you need to use dirty kick and flash grenade to back blast and what not. i tab target alot since the healing companion generates enough threat and has the tazer cc.

[Talon_Kaarde]

Ok thanks, I should have clarified that I was talking about fighting mobs on my own, so it seems yes I need to toss in a flash grenade or dirty kick before the backblast in those situations, but I concur that on a raid if the tank has aggro I should be able to do this rotation without issue. I'll let you know after I try it during tonight's raid. Thanks for the clarification!

 

BTW I'm slowly moving my stuff over to augmented orange armor that I make and I can make the augment that is cunning/endurance. Should I be using that solely, or should I also get some power augments?

[wiazabi]

Anyone actually got some parses from a raid boss encounter.

 

Just downed Toth ; Zoth on HM but numbers seemed abit out of whack untill we can sort it out fully, but my own dps on the encountered showed 990 dps which sounds ok to be honest with backup healing during the yellow circle phase.

 

But again untill we can get it sorted fully we wont know 100% what it was.

Edited April 25, 2012 by wiazabi

[Aetou]

BTW I'm slowly moving my stuff over to augmented orange armor that I make and I can make the augment that is cunning/endurance. Should I be using that solely, or should I also get some power augments?

 

It depends on how much Cunning you already have. Eventually the increased Crit Chance element of Cunning starts getting significant Diminishing Returns and at the point you are better off stacking more Power instead. I'm not sure exactly what point that is at, I've had trouble finding full DR curves for all the stats post 1.2.